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Gear / Technical Help => Cables => Topic started by: Kush on September 14, 2006, 09:15:28 AM
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I'm getting a semi-long run of RCAs made for Matrix sbd patching and have been given a few choices for RCA connectors. Anyone have any preferences on which one would be the better choice from my options listed below or which ones to stay away from? (good/bad experiences)
The RCA connectors I can choose from are:
TecNec offer Red or White stripe on shell of connector,
Switchcraft Gold pin Black or Nickel Shell.
Canare, Brass with nickel shell.
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Thanks for the recommendation Moke. I've been meaning to build some RCAs.
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I've used the switchcraft connectors on some S/PDIF cables that I made, and I'm very pleased with them. nice and snug without being too tight.
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What raw cabling do you like for S/PDIF? I need a new one of those too.
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Thanks for the advise on RCA connectors guys, much appreciated. + T
I do have another question though. Do I want my RCAs that I will be using for sbd patching to be balanced (balanced meaning common and shield are tied together) or unbalanced (unbalanced meaning the common just floats, all that’s wired is tip and shield)? I will be using these in Matrix situations, connecting them into my digi-mod UA-5.
I read in the cable archive to *Use balanced connections whenever possible and *Any unbalanced cable must be kept under ten feet (three meters) in length. Lengths longer than this will amplify all the nasty side effects of unbalanced circuitry's ground loops.
After reading the above, it seems like I'm going to want balanced. Does this apply to my situation?
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hands down best RCA on the market. They ground before making signal. Just incase ;)
NEUTRIK NF2CB ProFi PROFESSIONAL RCA PLUG (PAIR)
(http://www.partsexpress.com/images/092-114m.jpg)
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hands down best RCA on the market. They ground before making signal. Just incase ;)
NEUTRIK NF2CB ProFi PROFESSIONAL RCA PLUG (PAIR)
(http://www.partsexpress.com/images/092-114m.jpg)
Best rca? I'd put it in the 'one of the worst' category.
Too much metal mass and they are somewhat abusive on the connectors due to the high forces when they are pulled.
Even more significant... Since the ground connector is a *moving part* that slides, how is that moving part attached to the fixed ground wire connection point? Are we to believe that a hidden *SLIDING* ground contact is without issue?
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I like the Canares. I'm not fond of the Switchcraft RCA's and have never used the Neutriks. I do like the Neutrik XLR connectors however.
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hands down best RCA on the market. They ground before making signal. Just incase ;)
NEUTRIK NF2CB ProFi PROFESSIONAL RCA PLUG (PAIR)
(http://www.partsexpress.com/images/092-114m.jpg)
i like the neutrik pro fis i would agree they are some of the best rca's out there.
for kindkables i have been using the other neutrik rcas which work fine. gold plated and really nice strain relief.
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Bumping this old thread because it seems the best one to bump in my case.
I have been doing some research on finding a good quality RCA plug for a digi cable I plan on making. (maybe?)
Everything I have been reading talks about how RCA's are not really meant for 75 ohm cables.
The only RCA plug close to keeping the capacitance of a cable at 75 ohm are the canare RCA plugs.
Model #RCAP-C3A (which is crimpable only )
Anyway that plug is not a right angle plug like I would like to use.
Question.
Has anyone used any other kind of RCA plug and checked for capacitance to ensure it's still 75ohm?
A few web pages have stated that at best after using one of the "lesser" RCA plugs one would be lucky to even get 25ohms from the plug. Basically the way I read it, the cable is perfectly capable of 75ohm's but once it hits the plug that all changes due to a number of different reasons.(one being the insulation has been stripped away) I'm sorry I can't list all the reasons they give right now because the research is all on the home computer.
Nor could I give the right terms either like the insulation stripping that was mentioned.
So before I spend a 20$~ on rca plugs I'd like to see what the guys who do this for a living/hobby have to say.
What does the cable read on a tester after using right angle switchcrafts for example?
I am thinking maybe this is all worry for nothing because I thought I would find more discussions on this here.
Um I hope I made some sort of intelligble sense with my post here... ???
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I have had no problems making SPDIF cables using the Neutrik right angle RCA connectors. The cables work fine.
I figure it this way... Inside the box, the impedance isn't 75 ohms (on PC board traces) so a couple feet (with homemade cables and connectors) isn't much of a problem.
I did the research too. Basically RCA connectors are not the type of connectors you want to use for 75 ohm connections, but everybody does it... There really isn't a "perfect" solution.
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I have had great luck with the canare's. I made all my interconnects with milspec silver and canare rca's. I love em.
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I have had no problems making SPDIF cables using the Neutrik right angle RCA connectors. The cables work fine.
I figure it this way... Inside the box, the impedance isn't 75 ohms (on PC board traces) so a couple feet (with homemade cables and connectors) isn't much of a problem.
I did the research too. Basically RCA connectors are not the type of connectors you want to use for 75 ohm connections, but everybody does it... There really isn't a "perfect" solution.
Have you ever tested the impedance of your cables and what were the results?
do you have a search string or some sort of reference I can search on the impedance not being 75 ohms coming from the box( source) ? That is very interesting if no box (pc trace? I know what pc trace is but I don't know more than that)out there can output a true 75 ohm. I assumed they all met the s/pdif spec.
So if you are getting less than 75 ohms from the "source" and the cable is using a "non spec" connector
I don't understand why we would make a huge deal out of our digital cables either if we are not getting a true 75 ohm from the "source" box. I sort of understand the short run not making much of a difference at all but in theory it should make a difference. At least from what I am reading and I pasted a little quip of it below.
"Where analog audio or video signals consist of electrical waves which rise or fall continuously through a range, digital signals are very different--they switch rapidly between two states representing bits, 1 and 0. This switching creates what we call a "square wave," a waveform which, instead of being sloped like a sine wave, has sharp, sudden transitions. Although a digital signal can be said to have a "frequency" at the rate at which it switches, electrically, a square wave of a given frequency is equivalent to a sine wave at that frequency accompanied by an infinite series of harmonics--that is, multiples of the frequency. If all of these harmonics aren't faithfully carried through the cable--and, in fact, it's physically impossible to carry all of them faithfully--then the "shoulders" of the digital square wave begin to round off. The more the wave becomes rounded, the higher the possibility of bit errors becomes. The device at the load end will, of course, reconstitute the digital information from this somewhat rounded wave, but as the rounding becomes worse and worse, eventually there comes a point where the errors are too severe to be corrected, and the signal can no longer be reconstituted. The best defense against the problem is, of course, a cable of the right impedance: for digital video or SPDIF digital audio, this means a 75 ohm cable like Belden 1694A or Canare L-5CFB; for AES/EBU balanced digital audio, this means a 110 ohm cable like Belden (rest cut off)"
I'm curious now to see what kind of impedance the P2 puts out.
So you shoot a digital signal out of a A/D and automatically it is sending out a sloped wave instead of a square one and as the signal travels down the cable it becomes more round as it loses the impedance correct? By the time it reaches the recorder it isn't quite the square wave it started off as and the recorder now has to reconstruct that square? (what we would call jitter correct?)
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fwiw..
I use swtichcraft RCAs for just about everything. I use a different neutrik that I like as well, for straight (no rightangles offered).
but for hi-fi needs, im an eichman fan.
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hands down best RCA on the market. They ground before making signal. Just incase ;)
NEUTRIK NF2CB ProFi PROFESSIONAL RCA PLUG (PAIR)
(http://www.partsexpress.com/images/092-114m.jpg)
Best rca? I'd put it in the 'one of the worst' category.
Right up there with WBT (seems like the high end guys like these)- the ones with the locking shield that locks the plug to the jack - I've ripped the jacks off too many pieces of gear...ooopps
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fwiw..
I use swtichcraft RCAs for just about everything. I use a different neutrik that I like as well, for straight (no rightangles offered).
but for hi-fi needs, im an eichman fan.
yea the eichmans are nice I might go that route if I end up buying straight plugs.
It seems if I want to be "proper" the RA's are ruled out.
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fwiw..
I use swtichcraft RCAs for just about everything. I use a different neutrik that I like as well, for straight (no rightangles offered).
but for hi-fi needs, im an eichman fan.
yea the eichmans are nice I might go that route if I end up buying straight plugs.
It seems if I want to be "proper" the RA's are ruled out.
I use Canare rcap-c3a's along with canare 75ohm coax (i forget the P/N off the top of my head) and boots for my digi cables and Eichmann Bullets on my hifi interconnects (currently bettercables.com sliverserpent IIs)... I woulnd't really recommend the eichmann's for a lot of plugging/unplugging i could see them getting a little fragile. The Canares are great in that regard, a nice solid connector.
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fwiw..
I use swtichcraft RCAs for just about everything. I use a different neutrik that I like as well, for straight (no rightangles offered).
but for hi-fi needs, im an eichman fan.
yea the eichmans are nice I might go that route if I end up buying straight plugs.
It seems if I want to be "proper" the RA's are ruled out.
I use Canare rcap-c3a's along with canare 75ohm coax (i forget the P/N off the top of my head) and boots for my digi cables and Eichmann Bullets on my hifi interconnects (currently bettercables.com sliverserpent IIs)... I woulnd't really recommend the eichmann's for a lot of plugging/unplugging i could see them getting a little fragile. The Canares are great in that regard, a nice solid connector.
cool thank you very much for that insight. Something I didn't consider really.
the canares are cheaper too ;)
Do you absolutely need the canare crimper for those RCA's or can you work around it with some other off the shelf tool?
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fwiw...I used my boulder M80s w/eichman plugs for about 2 years in the field w/various recorders. never a problem.
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fwiw..
I use swtichcraft RCAs for just about everything. I use a different neutrik that I like as well, for straight (no rightangles offered).
but for hi-fi needs, im an eichman fan.
yea the eichmans are nice I might go that route if I end up buying straight plugs.
It seems if I want to be "proper" the RA's are ruled out.
I use Canare rcap-c3a's along with canare 75ohm coax (i forget the P/N off the top of my head) and boots for my digi cables and Eichmann Bullets on my hifi interconnects (currently bettercables.com sliverserpent IIs)... I woulnd't really recommend the eichmann's for a lot of plugging/unplugging i could see them getting a little fragile. The Canares are great in that regard, a nice solid connector.
cool thank you very much for that insight. Something I didn't consider really.
the canares are cheaper too ;)
Do you absolutely need the canare crimper for those RCA's or can you work around it with some other off the shelf tool?
I bought the canare die and used it with a generic crimper frame... it's set at a weird angle so didn't crimp just right... I would up making some extra cables at some point and broke down to buy the crimper frame. The canare branded tool makes some nice crimps, thats all I know.
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good info thank you.
My friend thinks I should just buy the tool and attempt to sell some cables on the side as well as be set for the rest of my lifetime with my own cables...
*shrugs* undecided still
Thanks to everyone responding on this, I'm kind of surprised this has not generated more feedback.
I was kind of hoping to get some info back on test results of peoples home made cables.
Plus Chuck really has my interest peaked on his comment that source box's seldom put out a true 75 ohm to begin with.
I'm going to try and get with my friend sometime in the future and do a test off the V3 to check if it outputs a true 75 ohm signal from it's connector and than test a store bought cable and see if it is putting out a true 75 ohm signal from the v3 (or whatever the v3 reports)
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good info thank you.
My friend thinks I should just buy the tool and attempt to sell some cables on the side as well as be set for the rest of my lifetime with my own cables...
*shrugs* undecided still
Thanks to everyone responding on this, I'm kind of surprised this has not generated more feedback.
I was kind of hoping to get some info back on test results of peoples home made cables.
Plus Chuck really has my interest peaked on his comment that source box's seldom put out a true 75 ohm to begin with.
I'm going to try and get with my friend sometime in the future and do a test off the V3 to check if it outputs a true 75 ohm signal from it's connector and than test a store bought cable and see if it is putting out a true 75 ohm signal from the v3 (or whatever the v3 reports)
What I was getting at is...
Copper traces on a PC board don't have the *proper* impedance characteristics that a cable or connector does.
It's all very nice, in theory, but RCA connectors were never meant to be used as 75 ohm connectors. After you realize that, you do what you can, with what you have, and it all turns out fine anyway. I use 75 ohm wire, and any connector that fits what I need to connect it too.
A good example...
The Oade 7 Pin adaptor for the D-8. There is no 75 ohm connector or 75 ohm wire in that thing. But, it passes digital signal just fine.
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good info thank you.
My friend thinks I should just buy the tool and attempt to sell some cables on the side as well as be set for the rest of my lifetime with my own cables...
*shrugs* undecided still
Thanks to everyone responding on this, I'm kind of surprised this has not generated more feedback.
I was kind of hoping to get some info back on test results of peoples home made cables.
Plus Chuck really has my interest peaked on his comment that source box's seldom put out a true 75 ohm to begin with.
I'm going to try and get with my friend sometime in the future and do a test off the V3 to check if it outputs a true 75 ohm signal from it's connector and than test a store bought cable and see if it is putting out a true 75 ohm signal from the v3 (or whatever the v3 reports)
What I was getting at is...
Copper traces on a PC board don't have the *proper* impedance characteristics that a cable or connector does.
It's all very nice, in theory, but RCA connectors were never meant to be used as 75 ohm connectors. After you realize that, you do what you can, with what you have, and it all turns out fine anyway. I use 75 ohm wire, and any connector that fits what I need to connect it too.
A good example...
The Oade 7 Pin adaptor for the D-8. There is no 75 ohm connector or 75 ohm wire in that thing. But, it passes digital signal just fine.
I follow you now precisely. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'm trying to learn heh
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Regarding using RCA's for SB patches. How many ft is to long. I've heard that longer they are the greater risk of getting a buzzing sound??? Is there truth to this.
Some venues I go to I'd like to be 20 ft or so in front of the board. If I only can hit RCA's on the board...what are my options?? I've been told to use XLRs with RCA connects.
Advice please.
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Regarding using RCA's for SB patches. How many ft is to long. I've heard that longer they are the greater risk of getting a buzzing sound??? Is there truth to this.
Some venues I go to I'd like to be 20 ft or so in front of the board. If I only can hit RCA's on the board...what are my options?? I've been told to use XLRs with RCA connects.
Advice please.
I'm thinking that buzz would be due to RF interference possibly and not due to RCA connectors, but maybe both? I think you would be ok with RCA's on that long of a stretch but I would go with a good quality cable.
Starquad comes to mind right off and this other stuff musilux I just read about looks to have good shielding as well for a cheap quality cable.
Hopefully someone with more SBD experience than me can chime in and correct me if I am wrong.
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Just a note:
The M-Audio Microtrack 2496's RCA jacks (L/R and Spdif) are recessed flush and have very little room around them for the shield connection of an RCA plug. The only decent RCA plug I know of that fits it nicely is Neutrik's NYS series:
(http://www.neutrik.com/client/neutrik/media/products/view/210_1377764256.jpg)
They're not super nice plugs, but not at all bad. Markertek and Parts Express carry them.
Peace,
Sanaka