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Author Topic: Would this mixer allow me to record three sources mixed down to 2 tracks?  (Read 7470 times)

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Offline disco

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http://cachepe.zzounds.com/media/quality,85/brand,zzounds/MG82CX_straight-b87670f716d265de7fdb8569366f0039.jpg

I would like to know if this mixer would allow me to record from the sbd, and both pairs of my CA-14's? I'm a bit confused on having 2 inputs for some channels vs. just one, so I thought I'd ask. I'd be looking at running both sets of mics mixed with the sbd and want a mixed down recording. I don't need to record in separate tracks, just three sources mixed down to one. Also with the RCA in's could you conceivably run a fourth source in the mix? If anyone has an alternate piece of gear that does this I'd love to hear it. Thanks
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 02:09:34 AM by disco »
CA-14 (c,o)->9100, Littlebox->M10 or DR-07

Offline fmaderjr

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I imagine it will do what you want, but that mixer is really inexpensive for all it does. I'd be scared it would degrade the sound and would want opinions from people who have actually used it on how it sounds before buying one.
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runonce

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http://cachepe.zzounds.com/media/quality,85/brand,zzounds/MG82CX_straight-b87670f716d265de7fdb8569366f0039.jpg

I would like to know if this mixer would allow me to record from the sbd, and both pairs of my CA-14's? I'm a bit confused on having 2 inputs for some channels vs. just one, so I thought I'd ask. I'd be looking at running both sets of mics mixed with the sbd and want a mixed down recording. I don't need to record in separate tracks, just three sources mixed down to one. Also with the RCA in's could you conceivably run a fourth source in the mix? If anyone has an alternate piece of gear that does this I'd love to hear it. Thanks

It will work just fine...probably sonically in the same ball park as the UA5.

I would actually recommend that model...one of the few that has peak lights on all 4 main inputs...very handy for mixing on the fly...

Im assuming you have battery boxes/preamps for the CA-14s? Running 4 mics and SBD on the fly will be a toughie...do you really need to run both sets of mics?

I run the older, 10 channel version of that mixer...

and here's a 3 source mix...an onstage split pair + M/S DFC in the room, and the board mix (vox, keys, acoustic, kick, overheads)

http://www.archive.org/details/mightychondria2009-05-30

I think I like the traditional 2 source matrix better though...

http://www.archive.org/details/mightychondria2009-10-31

(same room, different show)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 08:25:09 AM by runonce »

Offline bgreen

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Just keep in mind if you are mixing these down to two channels in the field and not tracking them to separate files on a 4 channel recorder, your going to get a delay between sources. Depending on how far your mics are from the stage, it can sound pretty bad.  I ran 6 mics stage lip and the sbd feed this last weekend and even being at the lip, I wouldn't be happy with the recording without lining up the waves in post. Just an FYI :)

runonce

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Just keep in mind if you are mixing these down to two channels in the field and not tracking them to separate files on a 4 channel recorder, your going to get a delay between sources. Depending on how far your mics are from the stage, it can sound pretty bad.  I ran 6 mics stage lip and the sbd feed this last weekend and even being at the lip, I wouldn't be happy with the recording without lining up the waves in post. Just an FYI :)

"Stage Lip" doesnt mean much as every stage is different...its still about distance from the soundmakers....

For the money - this is cheap and dirty way to get into multichannel recording.

Especially for small club/bar recording, you can make use of what are often unrecordable/incomplete soundboard mixes, and augment them with your mics...

Not trying to downplay the delay factor, but its not always a huge issue...

Offline Walstib62

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Not sure how much this thing sells for, but chances are you could get a 4 channel unit for comparable $, and you would get better results. Mixing on the fly is difficult at best in terms of getting a well balanced mix.

runonce

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Not sure how much this thing sells for, but chances are you could get a 4 channel unit for comparable $, and you would get better results. Mixing on the fly is difficult at best in terms of getting a well balanced mix.

Thats about 150 bucks...is there is anything in that ballpark in 4 channel recorders beyond the zoom stuff?

Offline disco

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thanks for all the input fellas.
I guess I was just under the assumption that more is better when it comes to the number of sources. I don't have a ton of taping experience and don't wanna get in over my head for the time being. Maybe just using something simpler like the DR-008 would be more up my alley? A simple mix of the two sources would be sufficient, I think shooting for more will overcomplicate things.
CA-14 (c,o)->9100, Littlebox->M10 or DR-07

runonce

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Do you mean the DP-008? -  I think that is only 2 tracks at a time...

Offline Walstib62

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Not sure how much this thing sells for, but chances are you could get a 4 channel unit for comparable $, and you would get better results. Mixing on the fly is difficult at best in terms of getting a well balanced mix.

Thats about 150 bucks...is there is anything in that ballpark in 4 channel recorders beyond the zoom stuff?
Nah! $150 won't go very far. I didn't realize it was that cheap.

Offline bgreen

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I was 5 feet from the bands mics. I personally would rather record 2 aligned tracks than 4 misaligned tracks. If your running cards back by the soundboard and it's 100 feet from the stage, you'll come close to hearing two snare hits for every one that the drummer bangs out. Unless your going to be running the CA's onstage with a board feed, it ends up muddy and unnatural. Just letting you know before you spend your cash on something your not going to be happy with. I guess it all depends on what you want back out of your recording too.

Offline disco

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maybe I should state my intention then let the pieces fall where they may...

I've been taping small venues that I can usually patch into the sbd and set up my mic stand near the sbd cage. I'd like to be able to make an on the fly mix that requires nothing but tracking or small editing after the fact.
The reason/thoughts for running a second set of microphones would be to run my Card's and Omni's on the same pole (thinking this will give me a "better" recording than just one of the sets) and to have those mixed with the sbd. I've seen a few recorders that can handle two sources and mix to one but thought it might be a nice option to have a third input if needed (back to the mixer linked in the OP)
I currently have 2 recorders so I thought purchasing just a mixer would save a lil' $$ and not duplicate something I already have 2 of. Thanks fellas....
CA-14 (c,o)->9100, Littlebox->M10 or DR-07

runonce

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I was 5 feet from the bands mics. I personally would rather record 2 aligned tracks than 4 misaligned tracks. If your running cards back by the soundboard and it's 100 feet from the stage, you'll come close to hearing two snare hits for every one that the drummer bangs out. Unless your going to be running the CA's onstage with a board feed, it ends up muddy and unnatural. Just letting you know before you spend your cash on something your not going to be happy with. I guess it all depends on what you want back out of your recording too.

5 feet is significant...thats a lot...not nearly as problematic as 100...

I would not expect my bar setup to work unless Im able to be within 3 feet of a guitar amp...just a little further than where the PA feed mic might be. Its more like Im adding the missing channels to the PA mix...

Disco - sounds like you might be back a bit too far to get away with OTF mixing.


Offline disco

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so I am reading correctly that a mix of sources (1 sbd & 1 aud-taped near sbd) would have issues, even if mixed on the fly, because of the differences in distance between the the sbd's mics and my aud mics?
CA-14 (c,o)->9100, Littlebox->M10 or DR-07

Offline bgreen

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yep. I track mine and then lline them up in post. I run stage lip or in front of the monitors, plus sbd feed, plus aud mics in the back. If I don't line tem you, it's plauged with phase issues and cavernous sound. If your going to do live mixing, you really have to be on the same plane or darn close,  with the same cable run length as the sound guys to get good results. Ilm working on a festival now where I ran 10 cannels if you want to hear what it sounds lie.

on top that, imo you will have a hard time mixing in a high spl environment. You'll need really good isolation cans or you'll crank the volume really high and destroy your ears. Just things to think about. :)

Offline disco

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interesting....much more complicated than I had originally thought.

So the ideal way to run a mix is to separately record all sources then mix in post? I have 2 recorders so getting two sources down is no trouble, I'm just not real stoked about the un-exact science of mixing, at least it's new to me.
http://www.amazon.com/Tascam-DP-008-Digital-Portastudios-Recorder/dp/B002UZV5UC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1277164928&sr=1-3
the above tascam seems like it's what I'm looking for....i realize it only mixes down to two tracks, but those two tracks are a mix of the 4 input channel correct? Since I'd be recording two sources and mixing down to a two track recording it just seems like it would save lots of time and be easier. I'm not an audio tech guy, I'm in healthcare for work, but I'd like to be able to pull of a decent live mix for the bands I can catch. Am I way off on the DP-008? It would seem that would be the solution I'm looking for as far as price, size, & tech level.
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Disco,

You're better off spending that $150 on a second small recorder just for the SBD.  Make your matrix tapes in Post...  Much easier, and you'll get the levels the way you want...  I tried to do Mat tapes with my UA5 all the time and quit - I could never get it right on the fly...

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runonce

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yep. I track mine and then lline them up in post. I run stage lip or in front of the monitors, plus sbd feed, plus aud mics in the back. If I don't line tem you, it's plauged with phase issues and cavernous sound. If your going to do live mixing, you really have to be on the same plane or darn close,  with the same cable run length as the sound guys to get good results. Ilm working on a festival now where I ran 10 cannels if you want to hear what it sounds lie.

on top that, imo you will have a hard time mixing in a high spl environment. You'll need really good isolation cans or you'll crank the volume really high and destroy your ears. Just things to think about. :)

I think you're overstating the drawbacks here and stifling experimentation with your tact...

"plagued"? And then taking this down to minutia like cable length...?

Give the fellow some useful advice...not just "buy another rig"...he referenced a 150 dollar mixer...doubt he's ready to jump into a 1000 dollar rig...

I've used a device similar to the one Disco references with acceptable results...Sorry I dont think any of the recordings I posted suck...or have anything "plaguing" them that makes them unlistenable...

Yeah some good headphones are in order...


runonce

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Disco,

You're better off spending that $150 on a second small recorder just for the SBD.  Make your matrix tapes in Post...  Much easier, and you'll get the levels the way you want...  I tried to do Mat tapes with my UA5 all the time and quit - I could never get it right on the fly...

Terry

Thats because the UA5 has sucky metering and is not a great unit to be going OTF with...and matrixing in post is huge PITA if you record a lot...some scenarios - just do it live...
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 11:08:46 PM by runonce »

Offline disco

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Disco,

You're better off spending that $150 on a second small recorder just for the SBD.  Make your matrix tapes in Post...  Much easier, and you'll get the levels the way you want...  I tried to do Mat tapes with my UA5 all the time and quit - I could never get it right on the fly...

Terry

i do have 2 recorders, I picked up a second one for the very reason of trying to mix sbd/aud in post. I'm not getting the best results with it and I was wondering if I could get a recorder that would give me an easy mix down that didn't require much after the show. I've run the two recorders on a couple occasions, I guess I'll just need to put some more effort into learning the process of mixing.
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Offline bgreen

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yep. I track mine and then lline them up in post. I run stage lip or in front of the monitors, plus sbd feed, plus aud mics in the back. If I don't line tem you, it's plauged with phase issues and cavernous sound. If your going to do live mixing, you really have to be on the same plane or darn close,  with the same cable run length as the sound guys to get good results. Ilm working on a festival now where I ran 10 cannels if you want to hear what it sounds lie.

on top that, imo you will have a hard time mixing in a high spl environment. You'll need really good isolation cans or you'll crank the volume really high and destroy your ears. Just things to think about. :)

I think you're overstating the drawbacks here and stifling experimentation with your tact...

"plagued"? And then taking this down to minutia like cable length...?

Give the fellow some useful advice...not just "buy another rig"...he referenced a 150 dollar mixer...doubt he's ready to jump into a 1000 dollar rig...

I've used a device similar to the one Disco references with acceptable results...Sorry I dont think any of the recordings I posted suck...or have anything "plaguing" them that makes them unlistenable...

Yeah some good headphones are in order...

Runonce says you should be fine doing what you stated in a previous post I guess?

"I've been taping small venues that I can usually patch into the sbd and set up my mic stand near the sbd cage"

Have at er. Spend your $150 on the mixer and then when you discover on your own that this doesn't make a very good recording, you can toss it in a closet like the one I have thats filled with stuff I gave a go at, but then found out it won't work well. Please be aware that a closet like this, if your married, will become a very big source of contention for your wife. I wish I had been stifled on tapersection before I bought a lot of this crap, a Edirol M-10DX mixer specifically in reference to this thread.

The problem your probably running into with the two recorders is that they aren't synched either. The clocks run at different speeds. You need to get yourself some post production software that will let you time stretch or cut it up and line up the two sources to make them match.

it's a pain either way you look at it unfortunately, but at least if you use two recordings, the worst that will happen is you'll have a usable sbd, and a usable aud and not an unsynched aud/sbd source that you can never fix. I have a whole festival thats like that that I've never listened too from when I started taping :) If I were you, I'd save up and get an R-44 or something of the like. It makes life so much easier for doing stuff like this.

The mixer would work nicely if you wanted to run your cards and omni's from the same location on one recorder, then get the sbd on another though. Thats an avenue you make take a look at. Good luck

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yep. I track mine and then lline them up in post. I run stage lip or in front of the monitors, plus sbd feed, plus aud mics in the back. If I don't line tem you, it's plauged with phase issues and cavernous sound. If your going to do live mixing, you really have to be on the same plane or darn close,  with the same cable run length as the sound guys to get good results. Ilm working on a festival now where I ran 10 cannels if you want to hear what it sounds lie.

on top that, imo you will have a hard time mixing in a high spl environment. You'll need really good isolation cans or you'll crank the volume really high and destroy your ears. Just things to think about. :)

I think you're overstating the drawbacks here and stifling experimentation with your tact...

"plagued"? And then taking this down to minutia like cable length...?

Give the fellow some useful advice...not just "buy another rig"...he referenced a 150 dollar mixer...doubt he's ready to jump into a 1000 dollar rig...

I've used a device similar to the one Disco references with acceptable results...Sorry I dont think any of the recordings I posted suck...or have anything "plaguing" them that makes them unlistenable...

Yeah some good headphones are in order...

Runonce says you should be fine doing what you stated in a previous post I guess?

"I've been taping small venues that I can usually patch into the sbd and set up my mic stand near the sbd cage"


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Offline Walstib62

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maybe I should state my intention then let the pieces fall where they may...

I've been taping small venues that I can usually patch into the sbd and set up my mic stand near the sbd cage. I'd like to be able to make an on the fly mix that requires nothing but tracking or small editing after the fact.
The reason/thoughts for running a second set of microphones would be to run my Card's and Omni's on the same pole (thinking this will give me a "better" recording than just one of the sets) and to have those mixed with the sbd. I've seen a few recorders that can handle two sources and mix to one but thought it might be a nice option to have a third input if needed (back to the mixer linked in the OP)
I currently have 2 recorders so I thought purchasing just a mixer would save a lil' $$ and not duplicate something I already have 2 of. Thanks fellas....
Since you have 2 recorders (2 channels each I'm assuming) you could use the mixer to combine the 2 sets of mics as long as they are in the same location. Then you could record the SBD with the other recorder. Then you make a matrix in post. If done right, you should be very pleased with the results. It's the post mixing that's the trick. You will most likely need to time align and speed correct the sources to sync them properly. Once you get used to it, it's not too difficult.

Offline goodcooker

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One solution for you would be to get a Tascam DR2d and run stereo SBD plus stereo room mics. You can take the resulting two stereo files and mix them together fairly easily by adding ~ 1millisecond per foot to the SBD source to time align it with your room source. Or on the same recorder you can mix on the fly if that is to your liking.


I never liked the results of on the fly mixing live. Even if I record at the stage lip I end up adding enough delay to one source to "move the mics" into the center of the drum kit. Otherwise I get bad comb filtering issues in the bass octaves.

To directly answer the question in the OP.... have a Yamaha MG10/2 ( I guess is an earlier model of the same mixer) that I picked up for 50 bucks used. It is fairly quiet and has a lot of features for the price. I use it as a router for my playback system. I can hook up my Firebox, soundcard, disc player  and/or any of my recorders and route them however I like to my amp and headphones.

I've been very impressed with the sound quality of the little thing even the headphone amp sounds good with my Sennheiser cans.

But I wouldn't try to mix in a live environment with it unless it was all direct feeds from the SBD and I had some isolation.
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