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Offline achalsey

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2015, 04:04:23 PM »
Back on topic though, I've tried running 63s onstage the past few times in order to take advantage of the rear lobe to pick up some crowd noise.  Can't say I really listened particularly closely to the possible differences to a card recording but thought they turned out well over all.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2015, 11:48:42 AM »
As a VERY general rule of thumb for me: hypers indoors and cards outdoors. There are definitely exceptions.

BAM, agreed! I run cards indoors occasionally, but usually when Im running my mk41s too! Im just a hypers/supers fan myself, and run them 90% of the time when given the choice!
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2015, 11:53:28 AM »
But it just comes down to you using them and finding out when you prefer them and when you don't ;) I have run hypers onstage/FOB/OTS/PAS, basically ANYWHERE that we record from. Even stack taped with them in a tinyass crowded bar in Pittsburgh before. Just keep using them and don't be scared by the fact that some tapers say "use them when you're farther back". Hypers/Supers have pulled more consistent recordings FOR ME, than my cards ever have, and that's with my old 480s and MBHOs and my current Schoeps! Now I just need to get my ass out there and tape something, so don't forget to do that too lol ;D Just try them everywhere and you'll determine where you like them and where you don't 8)

And I agree about the mk41 statement too. I have run ck63s, ka500s and now my mk41s, and without a doubt, the mk41s are the most consistent and flattest! They can really save your ass indoors in chatty, shitty sounding venues! That's why I sold my MBHOs and bought mk41s, because I've been doing this a longtime, and I have ALWAYS loved the mk41 tapes I've heard. If I had to choose just ONE capsule, it would definitely be the mk41! Its just THAT good ;D 8)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 12:01:27 PM by F.O.Bean »
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2015, 01:03:21 PM »
Couple hyper observations-

Consider the bit of reverse-phase rear-lobe pickup an advantage rather than a problem.  It allows a close spacing between stereo microphones to work along with reasonable microphone angles.  X/Y with supers/hypers beats X/Y cards hands-down in my book, and produces a much more enjoyable recording that isn't predominantly mono.  Widely angled X/Y hypers is sort of one conceptual step away from Blumlein crossed 8's, and has some similar imaging and feel to it but with the very useful forward facing bias which Blumlien doesn't have.

The ability to go widely-angled X/Y, or almost-as-widely-angled close-spaced when recording on-stage or situations where the room sounds great, coupled with the ability to switch to a more wide-spaced configuration using minimal angle between microphones when recording from further back or in situations where a maximum forward bias makes all the difference in a decent recording verses a bad one, makes the super/hypercarioid perhaps the most universally applicable of all pickup patterns since it can be adapted via the microphone setup for close/good-room-and-audience uses as well as for farther/bad-room-and-audience uses.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2015, 03:57:07 PM »
I normally run Neumann KM-184's, but have a friend's pair of AKG 483's lying around on long-term loan that I haven't been using. This thread makes me want to experiment with them a bit. My install at my local club is mounted on the sound booth about 30 feet back from the PA and off to the side (small room, holds about 120). What's the preferred starting config for hypers in that kind of situation?

Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2015, 04:06:30 PM »
I normally run Neumann KM-184's, but have a friend's pair of AKG 483's lying around on long-term loan that I haven't been using. This thread makes me want to experiment with them a bit. My install at my local club is mounted on the sound booth about 30 feet back from the PA and off to the side (small room, holds about 120). What's the preferred starting config for hypers in that kind of situation?

One thought is to take a look at Gutbuckets Point At Stacks (PAS) table: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167549.0

One piece of info you didn't include on the club in question is the separation between the PAs.

I've had pretty good results lately in a narrow room (PAs about 12' apart), room about 6' wider and recording about 25 feet back setting my mk41's (supercards) about 18" apart and very narrow angle, not much more than straight AB. I'm going to try spreading further to see what happens, but I've been happy with this. I had to use the mic source without the board matrixed one night back in Dec and was pleasantly surprised.

The table suggests even wider split than I have but it's a bit impractical in this place. Still scheming tho.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 04:09:09 PM by Ultfris101 »
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Offline datbrad

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2015, 03:14:16 PM »
Couple hyper observations-

Consider the bit of reverse-phase rear-lobe pickup an advantage rather than a problem.  It allows a close spacing between stereo microphones to work along with reasonable microphone angles.  X/Y with supers/hypers beats X/Y cards hands-down in my book, and produces a much more enjoyable recording that isn't predominantly mono.  Widely angled X/Y hypers is sort of one conceptual step away from Blumlein crossed 8's, and has some similar imaging and feel to it but with the very useful forward facing bias which Blumlien doesn't have.

The ability to go widely-angled X/Y, or almost-as-widely-angled close-spaced when recording on-stage or situations where the room sounds great, coupled with the ability to switch to a more wide-spaced configuration using minimal angle between microphones when recording from further back or in situations where a maximum forward bias makes all the difference in a decent recording verses a bad one, makes the super/hypercarioid perhaps the most universally applicable of all pickup patterns since it can be adapted via the microphone setup for close/good-room-and-audience uses as well as for farther/bad-room-and-audience uses.

You know I have honestly never considered running XY with hypers. Some rare occasions that I used cards onstage is about the only time I've used XY and liked the results. I might have to try XY hypers out sometime. I tried hypers DIN once and didn't like the results at all. I'm thinking that having both the main lobes, and rear lobes out of phase might have been why. If the caps are setup in a true XY, then the front lobes and rear lobes would be in phase just like an XY pair of figure 8s would be. These kinds of discussions are what I like most about this board, thanks!

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2015, 10:16:07 AM »
Try hypers or supers in X/Y on stage with about a 115 to 120 degree angle between them sometime.

Using the ambisonic Tetramic on stage, limited to X/Y configurations yet allows for decoding to any pickup pattern and angle between virtual microphones while monitoring playback afterwards, I almost always end up settling on that pattern and angle combination.  It's usually better than Blumlein 8's in most situations.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline deadahead93

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2015, 03:30:57 PM »
Thank you all again. This is such a great read. As for the venue, it varries... BBLV is pretty big for a "club" setting. Hard Rock on the Strip is smaller and we tape a lot closer. And then there are the big venues like MGM and such. So there are a wide variety of options out here ;)

One question for Gut, or anyone for that matter, When using X/Y ( which I have never done before ) what would the outcome be if we are not taping dead center? Would it still produce a good pull, or should I opt to use a different configuration? I'm interested in trying X/Y but the next show I'm taping, sometimes the venue throws us all over to one side or another...

Thanks again!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2015, 06:14:43 PM »
The general thing, as usual, is to space the microphones apart more and use less angle between them the farther back the recording position is, or the crappier the room sound is, or the more annoying the audience is.  The closer you are, or the better sounding the room is, you can go with a narrower spread combined with a wider angle between the microphones.  That basic relationship is no different using cardioids.

One extreme of that is coincident X/Y, using a wide angle between microphones, and the other extreme is a spaced A-B setup with both microphones pointing directly ahead.  All stereo imaging in coincident arrangements will be entirely from signal level differences with no phase information, nearly all stereo imaging in parallel A-B setup will be phase differences with minimal level differences.  Arrangements in between those extremes will leverage some of both types of imaging.  That relationship is generally the first aspect of stereo recording that people learn about.  Most here understand it.  Typical articles on recording cover it.

But there is more going on than those differences in stereo imaging.  By arranging the microphones with less angle between them, the sensitivity to sound arriving from in front is maximized as much as possible, so you get somewhat less room and audience contribution from the sides and rear and maximize the sound arriving from in front as much as possible.  Think of the combined pickup pattern in the room of both microphones if they were mixed together in mono.  With less angle between microphones, you'll still get ambient pickup from the sides and rear, just less of it in proportion to sound from the front.  By using a wider angle between microphones the pickup becomes less biased towards the front and more even across the horizontal plane.  Optimizing this balance of "front verses all other directions" is more important to making a good sounding recording than optimizing the stereo imaging of the sound arriving from in front, and since you can (and most definitely should) trade one type of imaging for the other while changing this bias of "front verses all other directions", it makes sense to think primarily in terms of this aspect when deciding what stereo setup to use.

Another thing going on besides the nature of the stereo imaging of sounds in front and the overall sensitivity to the sound from in front verses sound from the sides and rear, is the nature of the ambient pickup.  The quality and 'feel' of the ambient sound is dependent on how much difference there is between the two microphone signals for sounds arriving from all directions other than the front.  With a spaced arrangement, the ambient pickup of reverberant sound and audience reaction becomes decorrelated above a certain frequency determined by the distance between capsules.  The spacing creates a phase difference between signals for any sounds which arrive from either side of the center-line plane (front center, directly up/down, directly to the center rear).  With more widely spaced microphones, the frequency down to which this happens grows lower.  The farther off to either side of center that the sound arrives, the greater the phase difference between the resulting signals in each channel. This happens regardless of the microphone pattern used.  It's all about the spacing.

With coincident cardioids, there are no phase differences regardless of the angle of arrival.  The differences are entirely signal level differences, which are relatively minimal unless the angle between microphones is super wide, which causes other problems.  The reverse-polarity lobes of supercardioids, hypercardioids, and figure-8's introduces the equivalent of 180 degree phase difference information, and if the front and back lobes of the pattern of one microphone are more or less aligned with the null-zone of the other microphone, that increased signals difference between channels causes the ambient sound arriving from the sides and back sound less mono, more open and wide.  More 'stereo-like'.

Supers and hypers have broad application because they are the most directional patterns we have (other than shotguns), and can be setup in various ways to offer the most control we can get over the balance between sound from the front verses sound from all other directions (other than physically moving the recording position closer or farther, which offers far more control).  That's all about the angle between the two microphones.  Choosing an appropriate arrangement subsequent to that can improve the less important aspects such as the nature of the stereo imaging in front and the nature of the ambient pickup from the sides and rear, and that's all about choosing the most appropriate spacing between microphones to suit the angle between them.

All that doesn't directly answer your question, but provides the basic principles to work from in any recording situation.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline deadahead93

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2015, 03:10:42 PM »
Thanks @Gutbucket and everyone for this knowledge... I taped with my Hypers this past Saturday (in DIN) and love the results. I'll be taping all three nights of SCI next weekend, and since we will be in the same location for all three nights, I may try some other configurations. I will post the links in Kickdown if anyone is interested...

Thanks again!
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2015, 03:27:32 PM »
I normally run Neumann KM-184's, but have a friend's pair of AKG 483's lying around on long-term loan that I haven't been using. This thread makes me want to experiment with them a bit. My install at my local club is mounted on the sound booth about 30 feet back from the PA and off to the side (small room, holds about 120). What's the preferred starting config for hypers in that kind of situation?

Point at stacks, or at the stack closer to you.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Hyper Caps
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2015, 05:37:05 PM »
My install at my local club is mounted on the sound booth about 30 feet back from the PA and off to the side (small room, holds about 120). What's the preferred starting config for hypers in that kind of situation?

Point at stacks, or at the stack closer to you.

Definitely.  Doing so maximizes pickup of direct sound from the PA as much as possible from that location, and minimizes pickup of reverberant sound arriving from all other directions as much as possible.  That combined with choice of microphone pickup pattern is likely to be the most important variable you have control over in that situation.

The next step, and the most important variable remaining at that point in regards to the microphone setup, is determining the most appropriate spacing between microphones.  That will be of secondary importance, but becomes the aspect over which you'll have the most creative control.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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