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Author Topic: akg ck8 short shotgun capsule  (Read 5361 times)

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Offline ziko

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akg ck8 short shotgun capsule
« on: December 11, 2010, 05:01:41 PM »
Curious on this capsule if there is a right way or wrong way to orient the capsule. It has the one opening the length and the rest is closed. should that be up/down/sideways or it does not matter. the 568eb is like that too if i recall. different than the nak cp4. hopefully the attached image will show what i mean

thanks
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 05:10:51 PM by ziko »

Offline datbrad

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Re: akg ck8 short shotgun capsule
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 05:21:42 PM »
I used to own a pair of these capsules a long time ago. I saw other tapers running them in every possible way, but it seemed to me that it made the most sense to run them where these vents faced inwards towards each mic, in other words where they are inside the "V" shape the mics make when run on a stereo bar. It probably does not make any real difference, but that's how I did it.

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Offline 12milluz

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Re: akg ck8 short shotgun capsule
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 10:09:50 PM »
Don't mean to hijack this thread but on the topic of shotguns-  I just got some shotguns- do you guys just aim them at the stacks or do you set them up in a stereo config (NOS, ORTF, DIN).
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Offline datbrad

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Re: akg ck8 short shotgun capsule
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 11:30:26 PM »
Don't mean to hijack this thread but on the topic of shotguns-  I just got some shotguns- do you guys just aim them at the stacks or do you set them up in a stereo config (NOS, ORTF, DIN).

Yes, shotguns are the one capsule that you want to aim directly at the PA stacks. Stereo configurations with 90 to 110 degree angles like NOS, ORTF, and DIN are designed for cards, since they reject sound to the rear, but not the sides. Shotguns have a very narrow angle of acceptance in the upper frequencies, so they are not very forgiving if not aimed directly at the source.
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Offline burris

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Re: akg ck8 short shotgun capsule
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2010, 10:17:33 AM »
Shotguns are good as the middle channel in a mid-side setup.  Neumann has made a stereo shotgun mic for something like 30 years, the RSM-191, and the Schoeps literature shows their shotgun with a figure-8 piggybacked on top.

Online DSatz

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Re: akg ck8 short shotgun capsule
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2010, 10:55:15 AM »
Going back to the original poster's question, many shotgun microphones do have a "this side up"-ness. The easiest way to test this is to connect the microphone to a recorder, put on a pair of headphones, hold the mike in front of you and and aim it either at the ceiling or 90 degrees to one side of you. Then talk into the side of the microphone from a few inches' distance while slowly rotating it on its axis (i.e. still keeping it aimed where you aimed it originally, but exposing each side of it and the top and bottom to your voice). If you hear the sound quality of your voice changing (at high frequencies is where to listen for it), then your shotgun has a "this side up" characteristic. I think you'll find this to be as true of some very well-known, high-priced shotguns as it is of many others.

Since shotgun microphones have (relatively) much broader patterns at low and lower-mid frequencies than they do at upper-mid and high frequencies, there can be no "purist" technique for making a stereo recording with a pair of them; the whole theory of stereo imaging is based on having microphones whose directional patterns are essentially uniform across the audio frequency range. Also, shotgun microphones generally have highly irregular off-axis response which tends to be rather muffled at high frequencies (despite at the same time having peaks that can make them sound "spitty"), while semi-distant (or distant) pickup of music indoors by definition involves a large proportion of off-axis sound pickup.

As a result most professional recording engineers generally don't use shotgun microphones for music, or they use them only as spot microphones in very particular situations. Good supercardioids are generally preferred because they allow smoother, better-balanced on-axis and off-axis response in the critical range above 1 to 2  kHz. Of course professional music rcording engineers are generally in better control of their miking locations as a result of their business arrangements with the performers--but the narrower (on average) high-frequency pickup pattern of shotgun microphones doesn't usually yield a net advantage for two-microphone stereo music recording. Even the shotgun-M/S approach mentioned above is a distinct compromise, and doesn't allow for much longer miking distances than a supercardioid would.

--best regards
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 11:00:25 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Barry Shoop

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Re: akg ck8 short shotgun capsule
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2011, 11:49:34 PM »
Generally speaking on AKG models the vents are designed to pick up the sound via condenser pickups, that's what those vents are. Many will also utilize a diaphram at the back of the tube for the extreme low end (ie 150hz - 20hz) I use AKG CB568D models which are strictly shotguns with great success in anything from a closet sized venue to a stadium. Most AKG shotguns are actually 1/2 a shotgun meaning that you get what you point it at and 45 degrees down assuming you have the mic properly oriented (vents down) as opposed to a normal shotgun which gives a uniform spread up, down and side to side for a cone vs a triangle.

For live concert applications you want to turn them upside down (vents UP) and then angle them downward on your mic stand so the nose points at the bottom end of each stack. (Use normal left / right setup. X patterns and other wierd setups will cause no end of phase problems.) This way you get great full range sound and eliminate the crowd below for the most part. As to getting stereo you will achive EXCELLANT stereo separation by aiming right at the stacks. Bear in mind most PA's in larger venues are in fact stereo. For smaller venues where only the vocals and such run through the PA bring the mics a bit closer in, aiming inside the PA and more towards the stage. Properly set up a flashlight beam shined along the mic tube should hit the lower end (woofers) of the PA or the guitar and bass amps in a small venue.

You will find that set up right the AKG shotgun gives a VERY accurate full range recording with minimal crowd noise. I beg to differ w/ my cardiod loving brethern as I don't really need to hear a guy ordering Nachos and a beer on my tapes. Great, accurate recording of the event with the crowd noise in between songs where it belongs.

Offline datbrad

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Re: akg ck8 short shotgun capsule
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 10:47:07 AM »
You will find that set up right the AKG shotgun gives a VERY accurate full range recording with minimal crowd noise. I beg to differ w/ my cardiod loving brethern as I don't really need to hear a guy ordering Nachos and a beer on my tapes. Great, accurate recording of the event with the crowd noise in between songs where it belongs.

As a taper who used shotguns regularly from 1986 to 1994, using both AKG and Nak guns, I did not find them suitable at all as an "all purpose" musical recording capsule. They are not "full range" either, not to the ear or on a spectral graph. The response of shotguns is not linear, and rolls off at the top and bottom inside the 20-20K range, often with dips and spikes in certain frequencies. They definately show their weakness when used outdoors for music, as opposed to sound gathering for broadcast and film, their intended use. I eventually sold off my shotgun capsules and now use my CK63s about 20% of the time, CK61s the rest of the time.

Guns are a good choice if forced to taped from the far back of an arena or stadium, and I think they saved me many times  back in the '80s when a taping section was deep in the rear. But, in many instances I felt they were a poor compromise, with the impact from reducing crowd noise also cutting out a significant percentage of the soundstage, and making for a very unatural sounding recording when used too close.

Sound reaching a person at an inside venue is a combination of direct, and diffuse sound. A "stack tape" can work when the diffuse sound is bad, say having excessive standing bass building up at the back of a room. When the diffuse sound is not bad, in a room with decent acoustics, shotguns cut too much out for my taste, and create recordings that end up sounding flat and hollow to me, even if they are "full range".

Along these lines, I know some tapers that overuse hypers, which are way more natural sounding than guns, but also cut out too much of the soundstage when used too close.

My favorite shotgun setup was when I ran a 3 mic setup for the GD, with a pair of shotguns and a card or omni in the center, blended in to fill out the bottom end. That was a combo that worked pretty well for me back in the day.

My .02

Edit to add: One more thing, the tube of "short" shotgun is designed to differentiate the wavelengths so that high frequency sound can be pinpointed. In actuality, there is no "top" or "up" to a shotgun, except for stereo shotguns that are M/S and do have to be properly oriented. The front lobe in the polar pattern is round due to the round tube.

The way a shotgun works is the capsule sits at the back of the tube. Sounds with wavelengths longer than the tube are unable to travel the length of the tube, so they are picked up by normal pressure gradient principals through side and rear vents (the low end). Sounds with wavelengths shorter than the tube are captured as they travel down the tube (mids/highs), in accordance with interference tube principals. CK8s have a single vent running along it's length and more around it's base. Other brands/models may have vents on both sides, or all around, but they all work by the same principals. These vents have no real directional characteristics however, it's just an ambient opening to prevent an effect of listening to the sound through a hollow pipe.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 05:47:31 PM by DATBRAD »
AKG C460B w/CK61/CK63>Luminous Monarch XLRs>SD MP-1(x2)>Luminous Monarch XLRs>PMD661(Oade WMOD)

Beyer M201>Luminous Monarch XLRs>PMD561 (Oade CMOD)

 

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