Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)

[guysonic]

guy-can you test for the approximate unity gain setting?

Also it'd be great to know if there is a level below which you would still get clipping if you had to set the level below that point to keep the meters from going over 0 dB. I made a very informal test line in to try to determine this approximately and it looked like that point was probably very low (possibly around 1/10 on the wheel). This ratio to the highest level appears to me to be a good bit lower than on Sony DAT's and MD's which is a good thing.

When I was using a Korg MR-1, I found your testing results of these issues invaluable in making flawless recordings.

Going in LINE jack with REC level knob set at #6 and with deck set for LINE (not headphone) output, the LINE output jack signal equaled the input giving unity 'system gain.' 

My impression was lowest stable REC knob setting is about #1.  In other words, suggest that no lower than #1 REC level setting be used to assure not overloading the deck showing maximum signal indications at or near 0 dB VU FS.

[fmaderjr]

Great info, guy. Much appreciated. I'm shocked that my informal test sniffed out the correct minimum mic level setting, but I've never had a clue how to determine unity gain. Very informative!

[colargol]

Suggest battery box powered mics to ONLY use MIC input jack as M10 has overload resistant MIC input ability to +2 Dbu.

And if using external preamplifiers having active gain, use only the LINE input jack OVERLOAD RESISTANT TO OVER +24Dbu.

Thanks, Guy!
Do you have the corresponding numbers for the R-09HR?
-Colargol

[bucsab12]

Thank you very much guy for your response.

You stated in an earlier post

Suggest battery box powered mics to ONLY use MIC input jack as M10 has overload resistant MIC input ability to +2 Dbu.

And if using external preamplifiers having active gain, use only the LINE input jack OVERLOAD RESISTANT TO OVER +24Dbu.

I am sorry in advance if this seems like a stupid question, but being a novice at this hobby, can you please explain the two statements that you made?

Why should I only use the MIC Input for battery box powered mics? Will it damage the Line Input if I will use it or is there another reason?

Why should I only use the Line Input when using an external preamp? What will happen if I'll use the MIC Input when running mics>preamp>MIC In?

I ordered a C-9000 preamp and CA-14 mics from Chris Church and I would like to know what did you mean by those statements because I would like to go mics>preamp>recorder in certain shows, and in others, running mics>custom made battery box>recorder.

From what I understood from your previous post, the M10 is superior to the R-09HR using the MIC Input. Can the same be said for the Line Input?

Thanks again.

[earmonger]

Can't answer all your questions, but the Mic jack puts the signal through a preamp.

If you are putting the signal through a preamp already, then you go through the Line jack.

The idea is that your outboard preamp provides better quality than the built-in one, so you bypass it.

[fmaderjr]

Why should I only use the MIC Input for battery box powered mics? Will it damage the Line Input if I will use it or is there another reason?

Why should I only use the Line Input when using an external preamp? What will happen if I'll use the MIC Input when running mics>preamp>MIC In?

I think Guy is just recommending always going mic in with a battery box because he feels that there is no danger of overloading the recorder going mic in (the main reason to go line in at a loud show) and you don't need as much gain from the recorder going mic in. There is no danger of damaging the recorder going line in.

Normally it is rare to go mic in with a preamp, again because of the danger of overloading the mic input. However Chris Church once posted this (I save all useful tidbits I read here):

"You can run my preamp into a mic input. At full gain on my preamp but you have to make sure its a low volume show and that you have your mic input way down and slowly bring it up until you have enough gain. That's the benefit of a very low noise preamp. You should then be able to get all the gain you need. Make sure the plug in power is off the recorder. This could be great for acoustic if the recorder's mic input is not too quiet at high gain levels".

If you don't know what you're doing, you could easily overload your mic input by using an external pre into it.

[guysonic]

Apart from the Sony protective casing (LPCM-M10G) as seen below, is there any neoprene or similar "skin" like protection which can be kept on all the time to protect against scratches etc. when in use? The Sony casing is nice when dragging it around, but of no help when actually using the unit.

I still have a few of the R-09/09HR 'view cases' tested to also fit the M10 in the various uses of this same case shown below with the M10.

[steventhecat]

I am thinking about purchasing the M10 and was wondering how clear the stereo separation is when recording with the internal mics.

How do the omnis compare with the uni-directional mic pairs in other units of this price class (I'm also considering the Olympus LS-10/11)?

Is the difference in stereo imaging negligible due to the quality of the built-in microphones on recorders in this range?

Thanks.

[illconditioned]

I am thinking about purchasing the M10 and was wondering how clear the stereo separation is when recording with the internal mics.

How do the omnis compare with the uni-directional mic pairs in other units of this price class (I'm also considering the Olympus LS-10/11)?

Is the difference in stereo imaging negligible due to the quality of the built-in microphones on recorders in this range?

Thanks.

Stereo separation is not very good at all!  But that is to be expected with this arrangement (omni mics, close to each other, no baffle).

It sounds great, clear, low noise, just almost mono.  For impromptu recording, that is fine.  I've also tried a baffle and that helps.

  Richard

[steventhecat]

Thanks for your reply.

Another question: Can the mic input jack handle recording from a stereo mic or an adapter that splits the miniplug to accommodate a stereo arrangement, or does it mix things to mono?

[CatScan]

Guysonic: your case looks very similar to the one from Sony and isn't what I meant.

I would like something similar to this tight-fitting iPod "skin" from Incase which seems to be made out of heavy-duty rubber, neoprene or something similar (and would prevent scratches and everyday tear and wear when using the PCM-M10 out in the field):


Not surprisingly they don't have one for the Sony PCM-M10 

[Ozpeter]

I haven't got one to test but I suspect that the built in mics' stereo width could easily be increased through the use of a mid/side width VST plugin in your DAW such as "Voxengo MSED".

[sunjan]

Do you really even need an A/C adapter given how long the batteries last and that it does not recharge internal batteries? I never use A/C adapters with my recorders unless needed to charge an internal battery.

The cheapest street price in EU right now is €299 + shipping:
http://geizhals.at/eu/a479762.html

If you buy from the US, you can get it for €198 + shipping:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360200215179

The cons, as pointed out earlier: 110V adapter only, potential warranty issues (check with your Sony country rep before ordering), risk paying $$$ in customs.

My general advice when ordering stuff from outside EU: find a friend travelling into EU instead to eliminate the customs risk. If you don't care about AC adapter and trust the Sony warranty, make the maths if it's still worth getting it locally or not.

[CatScan]

In my case I have to pay import duties/tax anyway (I'm in Norway: not part of the EU), so even buying from another European country would incur an import duty. For EU citizens it might make more sense to buy from other EU countries, but for me it might make more sense to buy it from the States.

But I do agree that the warranty issue is a concern. However, I haven't actually seen the PCM-M10 for sale anywhere here (I've searched the web locally, and found many places selling the PCM-D1 and PCM-D50, but strangely not the PCM-M10), so I might be forced to buy it from overseas anyway.

The AC adapter: if bought from that shop in the UK where you found the cheapest price I believe it'll come with a 3-prong UK socket, so it won't be directly usable here (at least not without a travel adapter). The situation would be different if I was to buy it from say Germany where the electrical plug is the same.
Anyone in Europe know the Sony model number of the 220/240V AC adapter with a Germany type AC plug? Maybe it can be ordered as a spare part unless the cost is prohibitively high.

[earmonger]

Can the mic input jack handle recording from a stereo mic or an adapter that splits the miniplug to accommodate a stereo arrangement, or does it mix things to mono?

The mic jack is stereo.