Topic: very simple setup for stealth recording

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I missed this thread the first time around.  Now I want to know what happened with the OP?

I'm guessing his chute didn't open.

[mfrench]

î s†3嬆h!

I just had to say it, because its so titillating.

[Gutbucket]

I'm guessing his chute didn't open.

 

[bonghitwillie]

give the ticket next to you to someone that knows how to stealth.  best way is with 2 lav mics or better into the recorder.  the front row is great if there are front fill speakers and you are close to them.  i don't care what anyone says about the sweet spot, if you can be close to a front fill and also get the instruments from the stage, you will make the best possible recording.  if you are rich, you should buy a schoeps or gefell or dpa mic set up with a recorder and buy an extra ticket next to you.  give the rig and the extra ticket to an experienced stealther.   if you live in my area, i would do this.  or you could fly me in and provide room and board with a per diem.

[owainturner]

give the ticket next to you to someone that knows how to stealth.  best way is with 2 lav mics or better into the recorder.  the front row is great if there are front fill speakers and you are close to them.  i don't care what anyone says about the sweet spot, if you can be close to a front fill and also get the instruments from the stage, you will make the best possible recording.  if you are rich, you should buy a schoeps or gefell or dpa mic set up with a recorder and buy an extra ticket next to you.  give the rig and the extra ticket to an experienced stealther.   if you live in my area, i would do this.  or you could fly me in and provide room and board with a per diem.

I agree with this to an extent, but the sweet spot gives the best possible recording - that is the best sound in the venue (at the sweet spot) gives the best recording, it really is simple. In small venues this is certainly not the front row as even with fill speakers certain instruments (for example drums) will be far too prominent in a recording, If its a participially loud show so will the on-stage amps to recorded as well as, giving you drowned out vocals... This is from my very limited experience but I find it to be the case, at least in smaller venues.

[Gutbucket]

The sweet spot is simply the location where it sounds best.  You won't know where that is until you go to that place and listen. Could be the front row, could be 5 rows back to the side, could be row 12 center...  expecting it to always be in a similar location, venue to venue and act to act, closes the door to the possibility of making some outstanding recordings in what may be to you an atypical situation.  If it's atypical or not simply depends on what your usual recording experience is like.  For me, the last 3 things I recorded sounded far better in the front row than anywhere else.  Two of those were amplified, one used the FOH system, one was fully acoustic.  One was in a small but high ceiling shoe-box shaped gallery, one was a medium sized 1940's deco theater and one was a smallish club.  None of them had stage fills, but as Mr. Willie notes, those things may well be the feather in your cap.

Keep your ears open and aim to put yourself in the empirical sweetspot instead of the theoretical one, even if its the next time you show up, dependent on all the other important variables like girls, wives, vocals, pianos, fill speakers, soloists and drums.. drums are especially important, pianos are hard, girls can go either way.

[fandelive]

it's just that the concert I would like to record will probably be a one time opportunity for me, so I want to enjoy it... And I prefer to end up with a mediocre (or even a bad) tape having truly enjoyed the show than having a good tape but the impression I 'missed' the moment.

With respect to the technical side, I am now thinking about getting a very 'stealthy' external mic.

First post in this thread (after reading it in it's entirely) and that's what I'd suggest for you :

Get those kind of in-ear omnidirectional capsules :
* http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2
* http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/MS-TFB-2

I know you said you didn't want to use in-ear mics, but those will serve two of your main goals :
1. they will avoid any "getting caught while stealthing" issues, because they look like ear-protection plugs.
2. their omnidirectional pickups will allow you to move your head as you want without causing any phasing issue.
+ it's a pair; always better sounding than a mono capture.

You'll also need to power those mics with a battery-box, and I'd suggest the use of a bass roll-off filter with omnis. (maybe the internal low-cut filter of the Edirol R09-HR can do the job as well, but I can't answer this question myself).
Doing this way, you'll have to plug your battery box + mics in the "line-in" entry, so the recorder will be able to handle a hotter signal.

[fatstratcat]

What I don't understand is, if this guy wants to buy an inexpensive recorder and make at best a so-so recording for his own enjoyment, then why the fuck do some of you get upset about it?  His money, his time, his risk.  If you don't have constructive advice for him, like he requested, then don't post shit ripping him.

I don't think anyone is upset...  But the dude is fun to laugh at.

He deserves to be ripped because he made it very clear that he isn't interested in making any effort.  He doesn't want to "bother".  That includes, apparently, researching the many times this question has been asked in the past.  There are people who come here and are genuinely interested in making the effort to learn.  That's Not this dude.

He doesn't even want to do any practice shows.  That's just moronic.

His attitude, combined with his zero experience, suggests there is a chance he'll get caught and that is bad for everyone.

Why is it that if he gets caught it will be bad for everyone do you think they will torture him into letting them know about this place? Do you really think the security guards join T.S so they can find out where the stealth gear is hidden? You must think they have alot of spare time or care enough about there $12 per hour job..

This guy wanted some advice we gave it to him lets not kick the shit out of someone for starting out in this hobby and not knowing anything. Lets try and remember what stupid questions we asked when we started out. Maybe we can turn him into a productive taper who will not sell his recordings that to me seems more logical then beating up on him that seems to me to be more important in preventing problems for other tapers then just telling him how stupid he is... This elitist attitude is very sad this place is about helping the young guys out not laughing at them for not knowing as much as we do....

There are no stupid questions - just stupid people who don't ask questions. The first show I ever taped was with a crappy little Aiwa deck with an external stereo mic. The show was Roy Buchanan - my favorite blues guitarist - and I was determined to pull it off. I asked a taper friend of mine a few things - he was helpful, but doubted it would sound very good. I thought I ended up with a decent recording considering the acoustics and drunks in the place, but anyway, less than three months later he was dead. To me it's not always the quality of the recording, but the quality of the notes that are played. After that, like Chris said, I was bitten by the upgrade bug - albeit 20years later.

[MSTaper]

One interpretation of FL's comments...

Taping, particularly stealth, requires commitment and compromises.  If one wants to get a good recording, one can't:  <a> behave the same way one normally would at a concert, <b> expect to do so perfectly without practice, <c> ignore appropriate placement of the mics to achieve the desired results, and <d> expect the desired results (whatever they are) without allocating an appropriate budget.

FWIW, the front row generally doesn't provide very good sound, as someone else noted already.  Answer a few questions to help yourself decide whether it's worth it:

• What's your budget?
• With what quality of result would you be happy?  Maybe download a few stealth recordings, maybe made with just the recorder's internal mics, and others with recorder + external head-worn mics, to determine what quality you find acceptable.
• Are you willing to remain quiet, in a fixed position, for the duration of the concert?
• What's your willingness to accept risk, for example getting denied enetry or booted out of the venue if caught?

I had not read this post before, but it-goes-to-11's post was hilarious, but true. So is this one.
I don't do low-pro very often, but got a lot of practice at the non-taping Hangout Festival and Brian is exactly right. I mounted my Church Audio mics in my hat and had my R-09 in my shorts pocket. I really never worried about security, because there wasn't much, but I was careful.
I basically had to be the human mic stand for an hour, hour and 15 minutes for the six bands I taped. I could not dance to Primus, The Black Keys, DBT, Umphrey's McGee, The Flaming Lips or Portugal. The Man. It's difficult to dance in the sand without moving your head significantly! I did not talk to my kid or my fellow taper and had to ignore anyone around me. I did oblige and give a guy a sip of beer during Black Keys to keep him quiet. Really can't hear the exchange unless you listen closely. I could not sit down or turn my head.
What it got me was six very nice low-pro recordings from a "non-taping" festival that I've shared. Myself and two others sacrificed during those shows and others and ended up taping 16 different bands at this fest. And yeah, I'd do it again! 

MSTaper

[MSTaper]

The whole point of taping, imo, is the music, not how perfect you can make your tape sound or how much gear you have. For example, look at when Dylan played with the White Stripes a few years ago. A stealth tape was the only thing that was made of that show, but I don't see anyone complaining.

edit-or, all the Hendrix/Zeppelin/JGB shows where taping wasn't allowed. I feel like this debate has been done to death a million times already, though.

Until a couple weeks ago, I had one of two known low-pro recordings of The White Stripes last show in Southhaven, Miss. It was taped with an R-09 in my shirt pocket from the stands. Had to use internal mics because my CA-11 had not arrived. I wanted to tape and I did. I was one of those, eh, it's OK, recordings, but except for another taper's recording, it's all we had. I'm glad the band released it.

MSTaper

[ben_r_]

One interpretation of FL's comments...

Taping, particularly stealth, requires commitment and compromises.  If one wants to get a good recording, one can't:  <a> behave the same way one normally would at a concert, <b> expect to do so perfectly without practice, <c> ignore appropriate placement of the mics to achieve the desired results, and <d> expect the desired results (whatever they are) without allocating an appropriate budget.

FWIW, the front row generally doesn't provide very good sound, as someone else noted already.  Answer a few questions to help yourself decide whether it's worth it:

• What's your budget?
• With what quality of result would you be happy?  Maybe download a few stealth recordings, maybe made with just the recorder's internal mics, and others with recorder + external head-worn mics, to determine what quality you find acceptable.
• Are you willing to remain quiet, in a fixed position, for the duration of the concert?
• What's your willingness to accept risk, for example getting denied enetry or booted out of the venue if caught?

I had not read this post before, but it-goes-to-11's post was hilarious, but true. So is this one.
I don't do low-pro very often, but got a lot of practice at the non-taping Hangout Festival and Brian is exactly right. I mounted my Church Audio mics in my hat and had my R-09 in my shorts pocket. I really never worried about security, because there wasn't much, but I was careful.
I basically had to be the human mic stand for an hour, hour and 15 minutes for the six bands I taped. I could not dance to Primus, The Black Keys, DBT, Umphrey's McGee, The Flaming Lips or Portugal. The Man. It's difficult to dance in the sand without moving your head significantly! I did not talk to my kid or my fellow taper and had to ignore anyone around me. I did oblige and give a guy a sip of beer during Black Keys to keep him quiet. Really can't hear the exchange unless you listen closely. I could not sit down or turn my head.
What it got me was six very nice low-pro recordings from a "non-taping" festival that I've shared. Myself and two others sacrificed during those shows and others and ended up taping 16 different bands at this fest. And yeah, I'd do it again! 

MSTaper

Ha, yea see thats kinda what I was considering doing, Sony PCM-M10 in pocket, and maybe a Countryman omni lav mic run up say the back of my neck into a beanie and the sticking out just a tad through a hole in the front of the beanie. But yea, no moving, no turning, ignoring everyone, not going crazy in the front row, human mic stand.

[cybergaloot]

I've had pretty good luck with a Zoom H2 in my top pocket but I much prefer open taping.

[genesisoh]

I've had pretty good luck with a Zoom H2 in my top pocket but I much prefer open taping.

All things considered, the H2 does an adequate job recording live performances using the internal mics and does a surprisingly good job in one's shirt pocket.  Yes yes, I know it is not as good as most external mics, but it is certainly a good option for the beginner/novice.  Your placement in the crowd is key and the acoustics of the venue make an awful lot of difference.  Also, post production can be used to enhance the recordings quite nicely. 

The H2 was my starter "rig" and I have moved on to preamps, mics, BBs, etc with much nicer results.  I did get some very good captures of shows from the H2 just in my shirt pocket.  I still use it as a backup recorder.  If I were starting out today I would buy the DR-2D instead and use the internals until I got enough experience and $$$ to buy mics etc. 

We all gotta start with something and I think the H2 is a perfectly acceptable staring point (I'm not saying it is the optimal starting point however) Just my 2 cents ....

[cybergaloot]

I've had pretty good luck with a Zoom H2 in my top pocket but I much prefer open taping.

All things considered, the H2 does an adequate job recording live performances using the internal mics and does a surprisingly good job in one's shirt pocket.  Yes yes, I know it is not as good as most external mics, but it is certainly a good option for the beginner/novice.  Your placement in the crowd is key and the acoustics of the venue make an awful lot of difference.  Also, post production can be used to enhance the recordings quite nicely. 

The H2 was my starter "rig" and I have moved on to preamps, mics, BBs, etc with much nicer results.  I did get some very good captures of shows from the H2 just in my shirt pocket.  I still use it as a backup recorder.  If I were starting out today I would buy the DR-2D instead and use the internals until I got enough experience and $$$ to buy mics etc. 

We all gotta start with something and I think the H2 is a perfectly acceptable staring point (I'm not saying it is the optimal starting point however) Just my 2 cents ....

Although I have moved on to better gear I still have my H2. After being on the market for almost 4 years I am sure there are better units to start out with but then the price on the H2 has dropped quite a bit. I paid $200 for mine and they can be had now for about $140. I still say it is a better unit than its detractors claim all except for the external mic input which sucks by all accounts.

One thing about the shirt pocket trick is that you still need a clear shot to the sound source or it will sound muffled.  It works great in tiered seating.

[bryonsos]

I've had pretty good luck with a Zoom H2 in my top pocket but I much prefer open taping.

My buddy records his band with a Zoom H2, and I have to say they sound decent. Externals would be 1000% better of course.