Topic: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question

[JD]

Just grabbed a 100' of this on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120165100207&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RCRX_Pr3_PcY_BIN_IT&refitem=120164054833&itemcount=3&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget

Kind of late to ask, but this will work for mic cables and interconnects, right?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

That wire will work fine.

For mics you need two conductors + shield for ground.  You can ground the third conductor with the shield or just snip off the ends of the third conductor and let it be idle.

For balanced interconnects, you could use the third conductor for the ground and tie the shield at the source end so RF drains away from the amplifier stage.

For single ended interconnects, you can do the same thing but use two for signal or snip ends of one and use one for signal and one for ground. 

The directional shield design is described in some playback forum threads and there are other references on different sites.

[JD]

That wire will work fine.

For mics you need two conductors + shield for ground.  You can ground the third conductor with the shield or just snip off the ends of the third conductor and let it be idle.

For balanced interconnects, you could use the third conductor for the ground and tie the shield at the source end so RF drains away from the amplifier stage.

For single ended interconnects, you can do the same thing but use two for signal or snip ends of one and use one for signal and one for ground. 

The directional shield design is described in some playback forum threads and there are other references on different sites.

Cool, thanks for the input.
+T

[Jimna]

so what size techflex would be needed for that cable?  1/8", 1/4"?  i like how nicks hydras are often made with both cables in 1 techflex, would that be the next size up?  and what size heat shrink would be best?  man i want it all, dont i.....

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I would use 1/8" nominal inner diameter.  That wire will rattle around in the 1/4" nominal.  For two wires I'd go with 3/8" 1/4" nominal.  Techflex expands quite a bit. 

You might PM nick and ask what he uses, including the diameter of his wire stock for comparison.

(edit: iirc, the standard canare wire is just at 1/4" and the teflon wire I use is about 5/32")

[Jimna]

i didnt see any 3/8 size. ill have to look harder.   

pm sent to nick. 

thanks for the help lil' kim

i guess if i make them i get to name them... 

Phat Head Silvers

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Wirecare has 3/8".  Go down, past  https://www.wirecare.com/products.asp?prod=FR&prodline=ES

Although now that I'm not sleepy I think 1/4" is probably the best size for 2 of the thin teflon wires and 3/8" for two of the canare sized wires. 

[Nick's Picks]

fwiw..
I use the 1/8th techflex almost all of the time.
tight fit, but that is what makes the cables so nice.
1/4 is a tad baggy, but works just fine.  they wont "rattle around" .
:-)

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Thanks for the input nick.  I'm waiting for the tie-dye hydras :-)

The thing I didn't like about the 1/4" fit over my wires is that when the cable had a sharp bend, the sheath would buckle in a strange way and sort of float around the bend.  That was with the regular flex-o-pet cover.  The fray-less stuff was actually a lot thicker weave and didn't have that problem.

The wire I have for ICs is smaller than 1/4" but I also used some 5 conductor wire that I got for speaker cables and they are just at 1/4" and worked pretty well although the flex-o-pet still buckled at tight bends.

[Jimna]

fwiw..
I use the 1/8th techflex almost all of the time.
tight fit, but that is what makes the cables so nice.
1/4 is a tad baggy, but works just fine.  they wont "rattle around" .
:-)

1/8 even on the 2 wires in one piece of techflex? 

big thanks on the help fellas.

[Nick's Picks]

yep.
it aint easy.  but makes for a nice tight cable.

[Jimna]

An Error Has Occurred!
Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 12 hours.
Back

[Church-Audio]

Just grabbed a 100' of this on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120165100207&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RCRX_Pr3_PcY_BIN_IT&refitem=120164054833&itemcount=3&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget

Kind of late to ask, but this will work for mic cables and interconnects, right?

Oh no plane crash wire.. I would stay away from that stuff when you flex it over and over again it breaks down the insulation and shorts out... Nice..Techflex does little to stop this... So do your self a favor stay away from plane crash wire..

[Jimna]

seriously? 

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

seriously? 

There must be thousands of feet of this wire in use by TS members.  Have you noticed a lot of people bitching?  I haven't.

 

[Church-Audio]

seriously? 

There must be thousands of feet of this wire in use by TS members.  Have you noticed a lot of people bitching?  I haven't.

 

I actually have some here.. I made the mistake of using it as my interface cable between my computer and my preamp test bench. Where I unplug and plug in about 10-15 preamps a day for testing, with in about 2 months the cable failed the insulation broke down near the connector and the cable it self broke at the solder joint..

I feel this cable is NOT suitable for mobile applications requiring high amounts of flexibility.. I prefer to use a cable with a rubber sheath or neoprene. But not Teflon. Nobody uses a cable with a stiff jacket for mobile applications, that's why we have rubber in the first place.. Installed in an equipment rack, I am sure this cable is fine. But when flexed continuously it fails at a much quicker rate then the Mogami cable it had replaced.... I was not trying to upset anyone its just an observation I have had over continuous use. If you baby your cables and they are made from this product, I am sure they will last a long time. But if you dont they will fail much faster then any rubber or neoprene jacket cable out there.

I can see I have upset a few people here because of the -T'S I have been getting man, if we cant speak our minds with out getting -T'S what the hell.. I am not in the cable business.. I am not trying to sell cables.. But if I was I would not be using this wire for any application involving continuous movement.. So whoever is giving me
-T's for trying to help people here go right ahead. I stand by my personal/professional observations of this cable type.


Chris

[Nick's Picks]

-Ts fall line rain on me as of late.  Ahh well.  what can you do.
my count has been rocking back and forth for a couple months now.  seems I just can't score good karma these days.
aaahhh well. 
Karma's a bitch.  and she can blow me.

are you talking about the gold kapton wire I sent you ? or the white jacket millspec stuff?
the "plane crash" is the kapton.  I use it for ICs.

I've not had any fail on me.  and i've had maybe 3 or 4 "fixes" in the time i've been making these.  mostly due to broken wires at the pins.

[Church-Audio]

-Ts fall line rain on me as of late.  Ahh well.  what can you do.
my count has been rocking back and forth for a couple months now.  seems I just can't score good karma these days.
aaahhh well. 
Karma's a bitch.  and she can blow me.

are you talking about the gold kapton wire I sent you ? or the white jacket millspec stuff?
the "plane crash" is the kapton.  I use it for ICs.

I've not had any fail on me.  and i've had maybe 3 or 4 "fixes" in the time i've been making these.  mostly due to broken wires at the pins.

The kapton wire is fine.. The white stuff I purchased from ebay * the exact same cable * that was shown in the beginning of this thread was the cable I was talking about. The cable you sent me is being used for my test mic. And it never gets moved, I have never had a problem with it. But when you use that white cable listed in the ebay add.. It breaks down.. very easily and I would not recommend it for applications requiring plugging and unplugging and flexing all the time.

[willndmb]

so by plane crash wire you mean teflon covering?

[thegreatgumbino]

You guys are confusing issues here.  The silver clad mil spec wire is perfectly fine for our applications, as demonstrated most notably by the Audio Magic Hyper Conductors line of cables.  This is the basis of design for all the silver clad copper cables found on TS.com.  Of these the BBee, Hydra, Dogstar, Busilver, Hi Ho Silver lines, there are hundreds of users that have been using this material for 3 to 4 years without issue.  This demonstrates it's success rate.  Granted, there are users that abuse their cables and have issues.

The teflon jacket is not rigid.  It flexes and gives a needed.  However, the tape wrapped vs extruded teflon is thinner and more susceptible to penetration; thus, one reason for techflex.  The tape type is several layers thick and not delicate by any means, but can be cut or nicked, which will expose the shield.  The techflex aids in prevention.

From my experience with this material, it sounds like your problems with the material stem from inadequate strain relief at the connector since your issues are isolated to the teflon at the connector or the wire breaking at the solder joint.  The diameter of this cable combined with the fact that teflon is extremely slick make the strain relief even more important than traditional canare type cable.  Without this protection the stress is transfered to the solder joint as the cable is pulled or as the cable rotates/twists inside the connector.

Not knocking any T's, just trying to share my experiences so folks aren't confused.

[Nick's Picks]

the "plane crash" wire is the Kapton.
not the white stuff.

it might bring planes down, but it moves electrons like a motherfucker.

[Church-Audio]

You guys are confusing issues here.  The silver clad mil spec wire is perfectly fine for our applications, as demonstrated most notably by the Audio Magic Hyper Conductors line of cables.  This is the basis of design for all the silver clad copper cables found on TS.com.  Of these the BBee, Hydra, Dogstar, Busilver, Hi Ho Silver lines, there are hundreds of users that have been using this material for 3 to 4 years without issue.  This demonstrates it's success rate.  Granted, there are users that abuse their cables and have issues.

The teflon jacket is not rigid.  It flexes and gives a needed.  However, the tape wrapped vs extruded teflon is thinner and more susceptible to penetration; thus, one reason for techflex.  The tape type is several layers thick and not delicate by any means, but can be cut or nicked, which will expose the shield.  The techflex aids in prevention.

From my experience with this material, it sounds like your problems with the material stem from inadequate strain relief at the connector since your issues are isolated to the teflon at the connector or the wire breaking at the solder joint.  The diameter of this cable combined with the fact that teflon is extremely slick make the strain relief even more important than traditional canare type cable.  Without this protection the stress is transfered to the solder joint as the cable is pulled or as the cable rotates/twists inside the connector.

Not knocking any T's, just trying to share my experiences so folks aren't confused.

I have soldered 1000,s of cables in my life time.. I have never had any issues with Neoprene or rubber jacketed cable... So I would disagree with your analysis.. The plain and simple truth of the mater if this stiff jacket cable was never designed to be used in a portable application, I suspect it was used because it was cheap and on the surplus market.. But its not designed for applications that require hi flex cycles. Furthermore if it was so "durable" why spend money on techflex to protect it?

[Nick's Picks]

you're right.
this wire was designed for internally mounted comunications equipment.
It is built to work, even if your A4-Intruder is on fire and going down. (I actually had a 1000' roll of A4 wire...).

it is not meant for portable apps.  true true true.
but, it is designed to be VERY temp resistant and durable.  Above all, it is made to move electrons, in style.
and it certainly does so.

the teflon tape covering is not going to hold up like a fat rubber coating (Van Der Hul!!!), but techflex is not all that expensive and the extra $7 spent to cover your wires makes them look pretty AND add to their longevity.

my point...
it works.
now, go back to what you were doing and stop killing our wire niche w/your crazy facts!
;-)
Don't you have transformers to work on ?

[JD]

The wire came in the mail a few minutes ago and looks pretty good.
It's way more flexible then I thought it would be. It should make some nice cables.

I'd like to thank Chris for coming up with a name for my cables.

4022 > "Plane Crash Silvers" cables > Portico 5012 > "Plane Crash Silvers" ICs >722

 

[Church-Audio]

you're right.
this wire was designed for internally mounted comunications equipment.
It is built to work, even if your A4-Intruder is on fire and going down. (I actually had a 1000' roll of A4 wire...).

it is not meant for portable apps.  true true true.
but, it is designed to be VERY temp resistant and durable.  Above all, it is made to move electrons, in style.
and it certainly does so.

the teflon tape covering is not going to hold up like a fat rubber coating (Van Der Hul!!!), but techflex is not all that expensive and the extra $7 spent to cover your wires makes them look pretty AND add to their longevity.

my point...
it works.
now, go back to what you were doing and stop killing our wire niche w/your crazy facts!
;-)
Don't you have transformers to work on ?

Preamps actually  

[Church-Audio]

The wire came in the mail a few minutes ago and looks pretty good.
It's way more flexible then I thought it would be. It should make some nice cables.

I'd like to thank Chris for coming up with a name for my cables.

4022 > "Plane Crash Silvers" cables > Portico 5012 > "Plane Crash Silvers" ICs >722

 

FAA-Plane crash 100's

[willndmb]

maybe this plane crash wire is the secrete to akg actives hmmmmm

[Todd R]

You guys are confusing issues here.  The silver clad mil spec wire is perfectly fine for our applications, as demonstrated most notably by the Audio Magic Hyper Conductors line of cables.  This is the basis of design for all the silver clad copper cables found on TS.com.  Of these the BBee, Hydra, Dogstar, Busilver, Hi Ho Silver lines, there are hundreds of users that have been using this material for 3 to 4 years without issue.  This demonstrates it's success rate.  Granted, there are users that abuse their cables and have issues.

I'll just echo what Matt and others have said here.  Chris may have not had a good experience with this type of wire, but plenty of others have.  Not knocking Chris or diminishing his personal experience, but I don't agree with the generalization that milspec silver cables are fragile. 

I think Matt may be off base a bit with the idea that the Hyperconductors have demonstrated the usefullness of mil-spec silverclad/teflon cable in our applications -- I think they've been demonstrated not only by them but also by all the silver-clad cables sold and used on ts.com.  I don't have my records here right now, but I think I personally sold 3500-4000' of cables, meaning several hundred pairs of cables. 

I have sold numerous sets of cables to people who do sound work for bands, and who set up and tear down their Dogstar cables on a nightly basis -- they certainly aren't babying them!  My Dogstars have held up fine and have not shown themselves to be fragile. 

And by the way, I don't make cables anymore, so I'm not saying this to fluff my cables or get sales.  Just wanted to put my two cents in so folks who are cable shopping don't give up on the options on ts.com for getting some good sounding cables at a good price.

[rowjimmytour]

And by the way, I don't make cables anymore, so I'm not saying this to fluff my cables or get sales.  Just wanted to put my two cents in so folks who are cable shopping don't give up on the options on ts.com for getting some good sounding cables at a good price.

I am sorry to hear you don't make cables any more but I am sure my cables you made for me will be around for a long time and they still look brand new after over a year of use.
Peace

[boojum]

For the twenty cents a foot I would rather by the Canare Star Quad.  It is designed to be used as audio mic cable, it is supple and can be coiled easily and has a proven track record.  If mic cable fails just once in a session you know it will be the one session you "had" to have.  I am going to eliminate that chance of failure for twenty cents a foot.  As usual, YMMV

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I don't think anyone is chosing the teflon cables for their cost.  Most people are paying more per length for the SPC wire than the canare.

This thread started with such a simple question.
 

[thegreatgumbino]

You guys are confusing issues here.  The silver clad mil spec wire is perfectly fine for our applications, as demonstrated most notably by the Audio Magic Hyper Conductors line of cables.  This is the basis of design for all the silver clad copper cables found on TS.com.  Of these the BBee, Hydra, Dogstar, Busilver, Hi Ho Silver lines, there are hundreds of users that have been using this material for 3 to 4 years without issue.  This demonstrates it's success rate.  Granted, there are users that abuse their cables and have issues.

I'll just echo what Matt and others have said here.  Chris may have not had a good experience with this type of wire, but plenty of others have.  Not knocking Chris or diminishing his personal experience, but I don't agree with the generalization that milspec silver cables are fragile. 

I think Matt may be off base a bit with the idea that the Hyperconductors have demonstrated the usefullness of mil-spec silverclad/teflon cable in our applications -- I think they've been demonstrated not only by them but also by all the silver-clad cables sold and used on ts.com.  I don't have my records here right now, but I think I personally sold 3500-4000' of cables, meaning several hundred pairs of cables. 

Not off base at all.  That's the point I was making.  I just started with the point that Audio Magic was a true manufacturing/marketing approach.  They charged a lot more for the end product as a result.

My point was directed towards the success of the TS.com lines of cables I mentioned above.  It's hard to put together thoughts on a smart phone though.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

For the twenty cents a foot I would rather by the Canare Star Quad.  It is designed to be used as audio mic cable, it is supple and can be coiled easily and has a proven track record.  If mic cable fails just once in a session you know it will be the one session you "had" to have.  I am going to eliminate that chance of failure for twenty cents a foot.  As usual, YMMV

I ran Canare 4x for a long while.  It was great. 

I switched to DogStars and love the change.  The DS are much lighter and coil much tighter.  Less weight in the bag is nice.

But as you say, YMMV...

+T!

Terry

[Todd R]

I think Matt may be off base a bit with the idea that the Hyperconductors have demonstrated the usefullness of mil-spec silverclad/teflon cable in our applications -- I think they've been demonstrated not only by them but also by all the silver-clad cables sold and used on ts.com.  I don't have my records here right now, but I think I personally sold 3500-4000' of cables, meaning several hundred pairs of cables. 

Not off base at all.  That's the point I was making.  I just started with the point that Audio Magic was a true manufacturing/marketing approach.  They charged a lot more for the end product as a result.

My point was directed towards the success of the TS.com lines of cables I mentioned above.  It's hard to put together thoughts on a smart phone though.

Those smart phones don't make you sound more intelligent? 

Got ya, Matt.  I just wanted to make the point to people considering buying some home grown silvers here that they are just as robust as the AM Hypers, and also that the ts.com silvers almost definitely have more happy users among tapers than do the original AM Hypers.

[boojum]

For the twenty cents a foot I would rather by the Canare Star Quad.  It is designed to be used as audio mic cable, it is supple and can be coiled easily and has a proven track record.  If mic cable fails just once in a session you know it will be the one session you "had" to have.  I am going to eliminate that chance of failure for twenty cents a foot.  As usual, YMMV

Better???    ;o)

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

    You know what I was saying.

[rowjimmy]

This has been an educational thread (debate CAN be enlightening) as I prepare to build myself some new interconnects and mic cables.
+ts to the lot of ya.

It is built to work, even if your A4-Intruder is on fire and going down. (I actually had a 1000' roll of A4 wire...).

btw, the A6 was the Intruder and it took a lot (or pilot error) to bring those bitches down. Good thing too, cos my Father flew one for more than a decade in the Navy.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I state the obscenely obvious:  not all "mil spec cable" is the same. There are a huge number of variations.

The aircraft cable with the insulation problem is NOT teflon cable..

The ebay cable referenced at the start of the thread... I don't know wtf that is. The MIL number on it is one I'm not familiar with. It is Not the M27500 series cable many of us use.

[Nick's Picks]

thats right.
the a6 was the tandem side by side and the a4 was the smaller tandem (front/rear) ?

[rowjimmy]

thats right.
the a6 was the tandem side by side and the a4 was the smaller tandem (front/rear) ?

Yes and no. The A-6 was a 2seat (side-by-side) but the A-4 was a single seater. The excepting being the a-4 trainers...

[Todd R]

I state the obscenely obvious:  not all "mil spec cable" is the same. There are a huge number of variations.

The aircraft cable with the insulation problem is NOT teflon cable..

The ebay cable referenced at the start of the thread... I don't know wtf that is. The MIL number on it is one I'm not familiar with. It is Not the M27500 series cable many of us use.

Definitely true that it isn't all the same.  This seems to be the same stuff though.  Here's some info on it:

http://www.dscc.dla.mil/Downloads/MilSpec/Docs/MIL-DTL-27072/dtl27072.pdf

Looks like it is a cross-reference to mil16878, which I think is in turn a cross reference to m27500.  I didn't dig into it too much, but this certainly looks like fairly typical milspec silver-clad copper cable with teflon insulation on the individual conductors and teflon tape on the outside.

[Nick's Picks]

what I always look for in my cable is the strand count.  everything else is 2nd.

[stevetoney]

FWIW, and I know this is probably not worth anything given all the experts that have been contributing to this discussion, but the picture of the cable at the start of this thread looks identical to the cable that I have in my Audio Magic Hyper Conductors, which I bought from sleepypedro for $160 which means that they were probably significantly more expensive than that new.  These are FANTASTIC cables.  While the Audio Magics definitely have some nice preps inside the connectors to prevent the wires from coming loose at the posts (everything's epoxied solid inside the connector) the connectors are your run-of-the-mill Neutrix...so I dont' think there's really anything special about the Hyperconductors compared to what Jaledu bought in the ebay auction.

Nobody's mentioned this in any of the previous threads, but for all this discussion about the merits of this cable and whether it's worthy of use in the field, from where I'm sitting having paid $160 for a pair of 15 footers, $26 for a 100 foot reel is a DAMN great deal and it doesn't freaking matter if the stuff is less field worthy than a rubber sheathed cable. 

For that price (which is less than the cost of the copper stuff), just make yourself a couple of spare sets and just throw the old shit away when these start looking ratty or if there ever is an issue come up with the wires. 

The bottom line is that this is GREAT stuff and it sounds fantastic...and for $26 freaking bucks!!!

[willndmb]

so as a basic rule, what is a "good" silver cable made up of
___ strands
___ outer covering
___ awg
___ # of conductors

or are they all BASICALLY the same?

[Nick's Picks]

19+ strands
teflon outer (or tape, but the thicker the better)
24awg
2+ conductors

[willndmb]

19+ strands
teflon outer (or tape, but the thicker the better)
24awg
2+ conductors

+t
not that i am going to make anything but knowledge is good

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Doug Oade says "a lot of silver cable sounds like ass."

So assuming that something will sound nice because it is silver seems like a huge leap of faith.

A lot of people say that.  There are a lot of posts on agon in which people say they went back to copper after running silver wire in their playback chain.

[boojum]

^^^ Good point about the electrolysis.  I like to keep it simple, which is why I initially suggesting buying mic cable to use as mic cable.  What a concept!   ;o)

[Nick's Picks]

I'm about to diss myself and remove my the silver from my playback end and see what happens.
Hellloooo anti-cables.

[JD]

I finally got around to making up my "Plane Crash Cables".

[shaunpekar]

Pretty Bitchin...

Gonna start selling those?

[JD]

Pretty Bitchin...

Gonna start selling those?

Na, just making them to use.

[Tim]

I'm about to diss myself and remove my the silver from my playback end and see what happens.
Hellloooo anti-cables.

let us know what you think

[George2]

Don't mess with cables that you don't know what application it was made for. Use Star Quad, industry standard.

http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?objectid=79844442-3048-7098-AFAD046DCA18AAFA

[Tim]

Don't mess with cables that you don't know what application it was made for. Use Star Quad, industry standard.

http://www.canare.com/index.cfm?objectid=79844442-3048-7098-AFAD046DCA18AAFA

no offense but many of us are using mil-spec silver clads in our rigs and our playback systems with excellent results.

who cares what the wire is made for? I only care what it sounds like

canare starquad is nice stuff, some of us just prefer the sound of mil-spec silver clad

[George2]

No offense taken. But I'm saying wire does not have a sound.

[Tim]

you can certainly say that.

I can hear a difference between cheap copper wire and mil spec silver. It's obvious.

Many others can hear the difference as well.

edit: I'm not calling starquad "cheap" - just that the differences between cheap copper and silver is dramatic. I found the differences between nicer copper and silver less dramatic.

[Low Spark]

you can certainly say that.

I can hear a difference between cheap copper wire and mil spec silver. It's obvious.

Many others can hear the difference as well.

edit: I'm not calling starquad "cheap" - just that the differences between cheap copper and silver is dramatic. I found the differences between nicer copper and silver less dramatic.

QFT I done comps for myself using starquad and my silver. didny believe it but the ears dont lie. BIG difference for me. I love my silver.

[Nick's Picks]

starquad, in actuality...is just referring to the way the wire is constructed and woven within its shielding / outer case.
4 conductor method, w/two wires per contact (and shield for ground, per norm).
you can get millspec "starquad"...
just as you can the less expensive (and still excellent) canare, mogami, ramtek...etc etc

[rokpunk]

i use shoe strings and duct tape to interconnect my components.

[Jimna]

i use shoe strings and duct tape to interconnect my components.

i wanna hear those comps!

[willndmb]

i use shoe strings and duct tape to interconnect my components.

silver duct tape?
currently i have black, blends into the stand good but prob not good for interconnects

[George2]

Might as well use twist ties. The cable shown on the first page doesn't have any shield; appears to be 3 conductor wire for permanent installation, in conduit.
You think this wire sounds better? Some people think tube mics sound better, but they have more distortion. Maybe what you are hearing is more distortion and you think it's better, because it's different.

[Tim]

hell I even use a tube AMP so I must be freaking deaf

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Maybe what you are hearing is more distortion and you think it's better, because it's different.

Have you actually done any extensive cable testing or are you just spouting fluff?

[Todd R]

Might as well use twist ties. The cable shown on the first page doesn't have any shield <snip>

Huh?  The cable from ebay referenced at the beginning of the thread very clearly has a braided silver (silver-coated copper) shield.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Huh?  The cable from ebay referenced at the beginning of the thread very clearly has a braided silver (silver-coated copper) shield.

I was just about to link to the huge pic that clearly shows the shield but I think he's just trolling.

I wonder if he even knows what wire capacitance is.

[Brian]

Might as well use twist ties. The cable shown on the first page doesn't have any shield; appears to be 3 conductor wire for permanent installation, in conduit.
You think this wire sounds better? Some people think tube mics sound better, but they have more distortion. Maybe what you are hearing is more distortion and you think it's better, because it's different.

hell I even use a tube AMP so I must be freaking deaf

distortion in tube gear is even harmonic distortion which has been described as "musical" or "pleasing to the ears" by many people over the years.  the parts in a original neumann u47 aren't as "up to spec" as the newer model but many still love the older model better.  they might have more noise or distortion but people love that sound.

no real point....just sayin'

[Tim]

yep, there's a lot of interesting articles out there on the interweb which discuss harmonic distortion and tube amps. I don't care how it measures, I just want it to sound good

[Tim]

for fun I've been A/Bing two different types of mil spec silver interconnects between my DAC and amp today, both built by members of this board... there is an audible difference.

In one the upper mids and high end sound very squashed. These are the interconnects I have been using for some time now and the upper mids have bothered me for a while. The other pair lift the veil on the upper mids and have much more air in the high end.

that's just the effect on the upper end of the spectrum... I haven't listened critically for the bass. The soundstage seems to have noticeable more depth and height which I suppose is a result of the cleaned up upper mids and high end

[Chuck]

for fun I've been A/Bing two different types of mil spec silver interconnects between my DAC and amp today, both built by members of this board... there is an audible difference.

In one the upper mids and high end sound very squashed. These are the interconnects I have been using for some time now and the upper mids have bothered me for a while. The other pair lift the veil on the upper mids and have much more air in the high end.

that's just the effect on the upper end of the spectrum... I haven't listened critically for the bass. The soundstage seems to have noticeable more depth and height which I suppose is a result of the cleaned up upper mids and high end

I want to do this someday.
I don't have a high end playback system. I have never been able to hear a difference in the sound of cables.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

In one the upper mids and high end sound very squashed. These are the interconnects I have been using for some time now and the upper mids have bothered me for a while. The other pair lift the veil on the upper mids and have much more air in the high end.

What is the difference?  Same cable, connectors, construction?

[Tim]

I want to do this someday.
I don't have a high end playback system. I have never been able to hear a difference in the sound of cables.

Chuck, you're always welcome to drop by my place when you're up here in Denver.

I think my amp and DAC are relatively high end, my speakers are pretty mid-grade but I enjoy listening to them. If you buy used you can really stretch your dollars.

The difference between copper and silver was more dramatic than this difference from what I recall. I became a silver convert pretty quickly.

What is the difference?  Same cable, connectors, construction?

they are leegeddy and Segue cables, you'd have to ask the makers what the differences are. These are very early Segue cables too so maybe Todd has changed the formula. Sorry I don't have more info.

[George2]

People like distortion, makes the sound bigger... it's just a sound illusion. Many rockers love distorted  stuff.......... That's what these cables are doing. They don't have much flex life either, teflon jacket is made for pulling through conduit.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

People like distortion, makes the sound bigger... it's just a sound illusion. Many rockers love distorted  stuff.......... That's what these cables are doing. They don't have much flex life either, teflon jacket is made for pulling through conduit.

Many of us record acoustic and non-PA material...

Repeating my earlier question, what cables have you actually tested?   Why say a cable is not shielded when the pic of the shield fills your screen?

[Brian]

People like distortion, makes the sound bigger... it's just a sound illusion. Many rockers love distorted  stuff.......... That's what these cables are doing. They don't have much flex life either, teflon jacket is made for pulling through conduit.

i see what you are saying but perception will *always* trump specs when it comes to listening.  essentially....perception is reality.  so it's not exactly an illusion but rather your perception of the sound waves.

[Tim]

People like distortion, makes the sound bigger... it's just a sound illusion. Many rockers love distorted  stuff.......... That's what these cables are doing. They don't have much flex life either, teflon jacket is made for pulling through conduit.

i see what you are saying but perception will *always* trump specs when it comes to listening.  essentially....perception is reality.  so it's not exactly an illusion but rather your perception of the sound waves.

very well said Brian.

[George2]

Well, I haven't seen any spec on this cables, but have provided link to Canare specs. I'm not a cable tester.
As far as the shield, it looked like cloth. It would be good if your mil spec cables had cloth covering as well as the wire, as this would reduce handling noise..... oh, ya, those mil spec cables are not meant for handling...... they are for permanent installation. I'm a fan of using the right gear for the right job, and these mil spec silvers are not for mic or line signals recording location sound!

[Tim]

you seem so certain. Again, what types of cables have you actually run and tested?

[Todd R]

I'm kind of curious if anyone else was somewhat underwhelmed with the change over to SPC?
I was expecting alot more improvement than I got (belden 1804a quadstar spc cable), based on a lot of the comments from here at ts.com.
I was seriously expecting, going into this SPC thing, that I was going to go and replace all of my copper. But, the reality was I was not that overly impressed (enough to replace all of my cable).

It might be worth checking out the mil-spec SPC cable that uses teflon for both insulation of the individual conductors and the outer casing.  The cable nuts say that everything has an impact on sound -- metal used, size, arrangement of wires making up the conductor, insulator used, etc.  It seems most of the SPC being used and praised here is teflon-coated SPC, which the Belden 1804a is not.

I've got no idea if this is the difference or not, but if you're really motivated you might want to try out some teflon SPC to see if you feel any different about that cable.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

And there is the whole issue of quad vs. non-quad...  I really think that is an important comp that needs to be done.

[Brian]

And there is the whole issue of quad vs. non-quad...  I really think that is an important comp that needs to be done.

i'm going by memory so don't quote me....

but doesn't the star-quad config add more capacitance?   

i was also taught that cable shouldn't be coiled tightly if it's being used because it creates more capacitance and could have a negative impact on the sound.

[Todd R]

And there is the whole issue of quad vs. non-quad...  I really think that is an important comp that needs to be done.

Yep, good point -- and why I found Tim's experience between the leegeddy and my Segues interesting.  The segues I made him used a 4-cond starquad construction, and I don't think the leegeddy ones did.  As Brian notes, 4-cond designs have more capacitance which should have a slightly negative impact (particularly on the highs), though at the same time the starquad should help provide noise immunity.

My first round of cables (about 1200' total) used SPC in a starquad configuration.  After that, I switched to a 2-cond design, mainly since I was seeing more of my sales for ICs not mic cables, where noise immunity is not as great a concern (due to the higher line level signals concerned) -- so I switched to a 2-cond design to avoid the higher capacitance issues.

[Tim]

very interesting, thanks Todd

I don't know what to say. I just have been bothered by the mid-highs and high end for a while, it sounds squashed. I've tried all manner of tweaks and have been looking at rolling in different output tubes to help with this. It was just on a whim that I A/B'd your cables yesterday, I didn't think they'd change anything

very interesting thread

[it-goes-to-eleven]

So I must have missed which you preferred, Tim.  You liked the non-quad better?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

oh, ya, those mil spec cables are not meant for handling......

This has truth.  When I made my cables one of the first things I tested was mechanical transmission.  I thumped the wire to see how it transfered noise to mics and it was pretty harsh on the KM140s.  But in my application, I use the mil-spec with 414s that have internal shock isolation and for shories to the KM100s where the actives block mechanical transmission.  So I don't have an issue with it in the field. 

With respect to flexibility, most tapers I see are gentle with their wires compared to the cables on stage where boots and equipment get rolled over them every night.

[Chuck]

Chuck, you're always welcome to drop by my place when you're up here in Denver.

Tim, I will take you up on that sometime. 

[Chuck]

oh, ya, those mil spec cables are not meant for handling......

This has truth.  When I made my cables one of the first things I tested was mechanical transmission.  I thumped the wire to see how it transfered noise to mics and it was pretty harsh on the KM140s.  But in my application, I use the mil-spec with 414s that have internal shock isolation and for shories to the KM100s where the actives block mechanical transmission.  So I don't have an issue with it in the field. 

With respect to flexibility, most tapers I see are gentle with their wires compared to the cables on stage where boots and equipment get rolled over them every night.

I have a pair of Todd's Seques and have also done the mechanical transmission test. I have minimized the effect by putting both cables in one TechFlex wrap and leaving the TechFlex off of about 18", on each, at the mic end. I then let the white teflon wrapped wires coil a little bit at the mic end when I set them up.

[George2]

With respect to the capacitance issue between the 2 and 4 conductor.... we are only talking about a few feet of cabling here.......not 300meters. This should have no effect on a few ft.

Never heard the wives tall about not coiling wire......I think that goes along with "every ft. of wire means 1 mil sec of delay."

[it-goes-to-eleven]

With respect to the capacitance issue between the 2 and 4 conductor.... we are only talking about a few feet of cabling here.......not 300meters. This should have no effect on a few ft.

You've already said cable does not matter and is all the same.  When asked about capacitance, a very measurable property of cables, you ducked the question.

Now you're spouting off about capacitance like you know something about it.

[George2]

I'm saying it does matter, that you shouldn't use hook-up cable for location recording that was meant for permanent installations! Period! Canare and Mogami mic cabling is meant for lots of flexing and the Silver mil Spec at the beginning of the thread is not. If someone has specs on the cable at the beginning of this thread, please post it.
And I'll answer the question. Star quad has twice the capacitance as the 2 conductor version. I don't think you can hear the difference between the two with 15 ft. of cable, IMO. I have used both, and for me it comes down to what is easiest and fastest to solder many times. On location you might have 500amps of AC running nearby from a generator, or a lot of Radio Frequency activity and it would be better to go with the quad cable, just to be safe.

[Tim]

I'm saying it does matter, that you shouldn't use hook-up cable for location recording that was meant for permanent installations! Period!

and yet, ask LKJ noted...

There must be thousands of feet of this wire in use by TS members.  Have you noticed a lot of people bitching?  I haven't. 

You may be correct in a strict technical sense but experience teaches us that those concerns are not an actual issue in the field. If you don't want to use them that's fine but don't tell the rest of us, who have been using these cables without issue for years, that the cable will not work for our purposes. You have no evidence, merely supposition. We have thousands of hours of tapes on our side. I'll take field-tested evidence over speculation any day.

more from earlier in the thread...

You guys are confusing issues here.  The silver clad mil spec wire is perfectly fine for our applications, as demonstrated most notably by the Audio Magic Hyper Conductors line of cables.  This is the basis of design for all the silver clad copper cables found on TS.com.  Of these the BBee, Hydra, Dogstar, Busilver, Hi Ho Silver lines, there are hundreds of users that have been using this material for 3 to 4 years without issue.  This demonstrates it's success rate.  Granted, there are users that abuse their cables and have issues.

The teflon jacket is not rigid.  It flexes and gives a needed.  However, the tape wrapped vs extruded teflon is thinner and more susceptible to penetration; thus, one reason for techflex.  The tape type is several layers thick and not delicate by any means, but can be cut or nicked, which will expose the shield.  The techflex aids in prevention.

I'll just echo what Matt and others have said here.  Chris may have not had a good experience with this type of wire, but plenty of others have.  Not knocking Chris or diminishing his personal experience, but I don't agree with the generalization that milspec silver cables are fragile. 

I think Matt may be off base a bit with the idea that the Hyperconductors have demonstrated the usefullness of mil-spec silverclad/teflon cable in our applications -- I think they've been demonstrated not only by them but also by all the silver-clad cables sold and used on ts.com.  I don't have my records here right now, but I think I personally sold 3500-4000' of cables, meaning several hundred pairs of cables. 

I have sold numerous sets of cables to people who do sound work for bands, and who set up and tear down their Dogstar cables on a nightly basis -- they certainly aren't babying them!  My Dogstars have held up fine and have not shown themselves to be fragile. 

And by the way, I don't make cables anymore, so I'm not saying this to fluff my cables or get sales.  Just wanted to put my two cents in so folks who are cable shopping don't give up on the options on ts.com for getting some good sounding cables at a good price.

[boojum]

FWIW -  I am sticking with Star Quad from Canare.  It is designed for use as mic cable.  You may be able to open cans with a pair of scissors, but that does not mean it is a good idea, regardless of how many cans you have opened that way.  BTW, does anybody have the specs on this mil spec wire???  Just curious. 

[Tim]

You may be able to open cans with a pair of scissors, but that does not mean it is a good idea, regardless of how many cans you have opened that way. 

unless of course scissors actually do a better job of opening the can.In that case, I and many others will go ahead and use them and you can stick with your can opener.

amazing that someone who harps on "proving" that cables sound different in one thread is willing to overlook mounds of evidence in another case. So much for science and objectivity, eh?

[Todd R]

BTW, does anybody have the specs on this mil spec wire???  Just curious. 

Here is the spec sheets for the Belden 20 ga and 22ga 2-cond versions:

http://bwccat.belden.com/ecat/pdf/83320.pdf

http://bwccat.belden.com/ecat/pdf/83319.pdf

[OFOTD]

MIL- M27072/89NDDE9 - Aerospace/military rated PTFE insulated wire. New/unused condition.

Specifications
Length: 100 feet
Maufacturer: Wirecraft
Temperature rating: 200 degrees C
Number of conductors: 3
AWG: 24
Stranding: 19 strands of AWG 36
Primary insulation: Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE)
Sheath: Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE)
Maximum cable diameter: 0.137 in.
Weight (lbs/100 ft): 1.89
Color: White

[boojum]

This two stranded wire, MIL-W-16878/4 (Type E) Control and Instrumentation Cable, is better than star quad microphone cable?  OK, if it floats your boat.  I'm happy if you're happy. 

[boojum]

You may be able to open cans with a pair of scissors, but that does not mean it is a good idea, regardless of how many cans you have opened that way. 

unless of course scissors actually do a better job of opening the can.In that case, I and many others will go ahead and use them and you can stick with your can opener.

amazing that someone who harps on "proving" that cables sound different in one thread is willing to overlook mounds of evidence in another case. So much for science and objectivity, eh?

Evidence???  Apologies.  I must have missed it.  Point me to the mounds of it.  I guess you mean that you or some other folks have tested this and have not relied on anecdotal evidence.  We all know that anecdotal evidence is notoriously inaccurate so we would, of course, ignore it.  Right?   

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Evidence???  Apologies.  I must have missed it. Point me to the mounds of it.  I guess you mean that you or some other folks have tested this and have not relied on anecdotal evidence.  We all know that anecdotal evidence is notoriously inaccurate so we would, of course, ignore it.  Right?   

We are not here to convince you.

I know I'm not the only one who does comps and I've done literally dozens over the past two years.

[Tim]

Years worth of field testing is evidence and it is not in any way anecdotal. What proof do you have of your position? You're always so quick to demand evidence of others and supply none of your own. Nevermind your shifting standards, anything to be a rebellious contrarian I suppose

how about this, we'll all go on using high-quality cables to make high-quality tapes and you can go ahead doing whatever it is you do.

[Todd R]

Evidence???  Apologies.  I must have missed it.  Point me to the mounds of it.  I guess you mean that you or some other folks have tested this and have not relied on anecdotal evidence.  We all know that anecdotal evidence is notoriously inaccurate so we would, of course, ignore it.  Right?   

Actually, I think the idea that this is anectodotal evidence is a red herring.  It somehow implies there is a right and a wrong scientific, objective answer.  It is entirely subjective -- whether or not an individual percieves a noticeable sound difference in different cables, whether or not an individual prefers the sound of a given cable over others, and whether or not that sound difference is more important than other things -- like handling noise or whether the cable was originally meant for conduit placement.  You can't scientifically prove that AKGs are better sounding than Schoeps -- some people will prefer akgs, some schoeps, and some neumanns (and some Milabs   ).

Also, I've got to admit to being confused.  You purchased one of the last sets of mil-spec SPC mic cables I've made.  Apparently at this point you've switched to Canare starquad.  Forget the specs -- what differences did you hear between the two types of cables?  Which cable type sounded better to you?  Doesn't matter which you choose, to me the point is that people can choose whatever floats their boat.  From the sounds of it, you prefer Canare not the SPC, which is fine, I just don't understand there's the need to somehow prove that folks that choose otherwise are wrong.

[Brian]

You purchased one of the last sets of mil-spec SPC mic cables I've made. 

[JD]

Interesting discussion. When I bought this cable, it was more for the light weight and saving some room in the gear bag than it was for sonic quality. I just think that it is more durable than the standard mic cables of similar diameter. It may not be as flexible as Canare cable, but it's flexibility is more than adequate for what we do.

Last weekend, for shits and giggles, I did a half assed test that attempted to compare this cable to Canare L-4E6S. Using the same mic and recorder set up, I recorded some music off of my stereo using each cable set (both sets 15' long).

I expected no difference considering the simplicity of the test, but to my surprise there was. The silvers had something about them that sounded better, couldn't really put my finger on what though. Not much difference, but perceivable. Now granted I knew which recording was which so take it for what it's worth. I did however have a pair of friends drop by, one of which works as a FOH. I had the two of them listen to the same recordings, not knowing which was which or what was even different about them for that matter, and they both liked the "silvers" recording better as well. Same thing, neither could really say what was better about the silvers, but they liked their sound better.

What's all this mean, probable nothing. At least I got some nice compact cables and freed up a little room in my gear bag. Now I have to work on assembling my stubby RA interconnects.

Jamie

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Sound aside, I Really like how my 25' teflon jacket cables 'handle' in a single sleeve of techflex.  They coil up very easily but have no tendency to coil on their own... the cable lays flat. I believe the slickness of the teflon contributes to the easy handling by allowing it to shift and float freely in the techflex.  I think I may have heat shrunk the pair every 4' or so (after straightening and aligning, etc).  The single coil of cable is quite small, much smaller than Canare mini star-quad would be.

A friend has some Lee Geddy cables that are individually techflexed (16' or so, I think). They look like a real handful to use.  They always want to coil, like trying to unwind a slinky.

[Brian]

A friend has some Lee Geddy cables that are individually techflexed (16' or so, I think). They look like a real handful to use.  They always want to coil, like trying to unwind a slinky.

this is my experience as well.  they suck for keeping tidy in the field. i used them for one festival and called it quits. now i just use them for studio applications.

[eric.B]

I myself will never have too much to add when it comes to cables except:   I do hear a difference between cables.  The ones with silver in play are tighter to my ears, and perhaps more "alive".  But don't mistake that for better.  If any "taper" is torn between whether to go copper or silver, I'd have to point out that with the ranging environments and sound sources that "tapers" encounter, the type of cable you use will not "make or break" your liking of the recordings you make.  I personally love the cables ed boardman made for me out of the belden 1503a.  They are *very* manageable in the field, light, and easy to coil.  Above all else when it comes to selecting materials to produce recordings, I think one should look at cabling as being the last piece of the puzzle.  Go with the most cost effective, well made cable you can find off the bat for a while, then try other types to see you can find any improvement you like.  You might move to silver and LOVE the sound and that would be great, but by no means does the fact that YOU love it mean it is BETTER......   it's just better for you.   I personally do not *love* the sound that the schoeps mics put out.  But that is not to say I don't have many listenable and wonderful tapes made with them.  The low end is nice, but the mids and highs (to me) are brittle and unnatural.   Can I convince schoeps lovers that Im right?  oh pulleaasee..  Ill take the akg sizzle anyday over the schoeps, but that doesnt make akg's better, just better for me.   Very much like cabling.  Well made cables of either silver, silver plated, or copper are all *good*...  at that point it comes down to whether you like vanilla or chocolate.

[Jimna]

my whole effort is price driven.....

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I'm waiting for a comp between silvers, copper, and home depot 3-wire extension cord

I am working on a 3 prong to xlr adaptor.

[rokpunk]

I'm waiting for a comp between silvers, copper, and home depot 3-wire extension cord

I am working on a 3 prong to xlr adaptor.

don't laugh. it exists.

[rokpunk]

most companies these days will use a 4 or 5 pin XLR to feed power, but i have seen some older units that use a standard 3 pin XLR for the hot/neuteral/ground. i dont think there is an actual adapter to go from an edison plug to an XLR, but i have seen a cable with a 3 pin XLR on one end and an edison plug on the other.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I have thought about making some to burn in cables... But it just seems like something that could start an electrical fire while just sitting on the shelf, not even plugged in.

[Tim]

cable burn in?

cue the dissenters in 3...2..

[Church-Audio]

most companies these days will use a 4 or 5 pin XLR to feed power, but i have seen some older units that use a standard 3 pin XLR for the hot/neuteral/ground. i dont think there is an actual adapter to go from an edison plug to an XLR, but i have seen a cable with a 3 pin XLR on one end and an edison plug on the other.

Any company that would use a cannon plug to an 3 prong Edison plug should be shot.

[George2]

I usually burn my cables in using 220vac. Increases the depth to my recordings, while also improving transient response.

[Church-Audio]

I usually burn my cables in using 220vac. Increases the depth to my recordings, while also improving transient response.

[rokpunk]

I usually burn my cables in using 220vac. Increases the depth to my recordings, while also improving transient response.

lightweight! you need to burn them in before the step down transformer. 440vac is the only way to go.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

lightweight! you need to burn them in before the step down transformer. 440vac is the only way to go.

And it doesn't work right if you don't burn in with 3 phase power.

[eric.B]

lightweight! you need to burn them in before the step down transformer. 440vac is the only way to go.

And it doesn't work right if you don't burn in with 3 phase power.

doesnt it also matter as to how the cables are laid out?  Ive heard north to south as there is less resistance between the poles..

[Brian]

lightweight! you need to burn them in before the step down transformer. 440vac is the only way to go.

And it doesn't work right if you don't burn in with 3 phase power.

doesnt it also matter as to how the cables are laid out?  Ive heard north to south as there is less resistance between the poles..

don't forget the audiophile crystals.....if they are there.....everything sounds better!

[sygdwm]

also make sure the cables are not touching the ground. ever.

[boojum]

Evidence???  Apologies.  I must have missed it.  Point me to the mounds of it.  I guess you mean that you or some other folks have tested this and have not relied on anecdotal evidence.  We all know that anecdotal evidence is notoriously inaccurate so we would, of course, ignore it.  Right?   

Actually, I think the idea that this is anectodotal evidence is a red herring.  It somehow implies there is a right and a wrong scientific, objective answer.  It is entirely subjective -- whether or not an individual percieves a noticeable sound difference in different cables, whether or not an individual prefers the sound of a given cable over others, and whether or not that sound difference is more important than other things -- like handling noise or whether the cable was originally meant for conduit placement.  You can't scientifically prove that AKGs are better sounding than Schoeps -- some people will prefer akgs, some schoeps, and some neumanns (and some Milabs  ).

Also, I've got to admit to being confused.   You purchased one of the last sets of mil-spec SPC mic cables I've made.  Apparently at this point you've switched to Canare starquad.  Forget the specs -- what differences did you hear between the two types of cables?  Which cable type sounded better to you?  Doesn't matter which you choose, to me the point is that people can choose whatever floats their boat.  From the sounds of it, you prefer Canare not the SPC, which is fine, I just don't understand there's the need to somehow prove that folks that choose otherwise are wrong.

Todd -

I stopped using your cables as the connectors are 180 out from what I want on the SD 722 inputs.  I also disliked the lack of flexibility in the cables themselves.  I had a pair of Canare star quads that were easier to work with.  So I then ordered 200 meters of star quad and a bunch of Neutriks and make my own cables now.  It is pretty easy to do and I get the lengths I need without having to check the mailbox.  I think a lot of this "perceived difference" between the good cables is placebo effect more than anything.  And I also really like using tools for the purpose they were designed.  I suppose that I could offer up your cables on YS but I may need then down the line for something.  I am kind of a pack rat.

Sorry to take so long in answering your question.

Cheers

[George2]

Back on track about the mil spec "Silvers".... That teflon outer is made for permanent installation into conduit. You put that wire grease on the cables and push and pull through..
You guys are familiar with the wire grease, right?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Back on track about the mil spec "Silvers".... That teflon outer is made for permanent installation into conduit. You put that wire grease on the cables and push and pull through..
You guys are familiar with the wire grease, right?

Actually, a lot of it gets installed in aircraft where it is bundled into larger teflon sleeves.

[Tim]

Love the passive-aggressive challenge

[Tim]

Hardly. Merely noting the tone. I thought this thread had finally calmed down a bit, apparently not.

[rokpunk]

Back on track about the mil spec "Silvers".... That teflon outer is made for permanent installation into conduit. You put that wire grease on the cables and push and pull through..
You guys are familiar with the wire grease, right?

By code, wire going in ceilings and in conduit shall be plenum cable, which is different than teflon coated cable.

[Brian Skalinder]

Let's summarize, shall we?

• some really like the sound of mil spec silver cable
• others don't
• some have had nothing but positive experiences with mil spec silver cable in the field
• another has not (quasi-field use)
• some think it should only be used for it's intended purpose, and not for field recording
  
• others think it makes sense to use if it sounds good to their ears, doesn't suffer the problems others suggest it has, etc.

Whaddya think...another 10 pages?  :P

[Tim]

always the voice of sanity

thanks Brian

[jcrab66]

Actually, a lot of it gets installed in aircraft where it is bundled into larger teflon sleeves.

thats a new one on me

[Nick's Picks]

that makes sense.  it is mostly communications wire.

[Todd R]

I stopped using your cables as the connectors are 180 out from what I want on the SD 722 inputs. 

FWIW, you can easily change the angle that the cable exits with those RA neutriks.  The RA neutriks allow 7 different exit angles, every 45 degrees other than straight up (over the silver unlock tab on the 722). 

If you're interested in changing them, you'd need to unscrew the screws holding on the cap to the connector, take out the plastic insert, push the bottom portion of the connector up into the connector housing to unseat it, rotate the bottom portion to the new angle you'd like, reseat it, and then put everything back together.  I don't think you had the 722 when you got the cables from me, or at least I wasn't aware.  Getting those RA neutriks to fit on the 722 is a bit tricky, but they will fit.  Just need to alter the exit angle of the two cables from each other, so something like this:  \  /

Sorry you didn't find the cables to your liking.   I had been curious though about what you thought of the sound of them vs the Canares if you ever did a comparison.  Obviously, you might like the sound of the Canares better, or one could easily prefer the sound of the silver-clad cables, but not enough to overcome the difficulties you found with the cables (eg., lack of flexibility).  I've used three different kinds of Audio Magic cables, the Xtremes, the hyperconductors, and the Sceptors with the clear jacket -- those Sceptors sounded great, but man they were just way too much of the PITA to deal with.  Of the 3, all sounded great, but the hyperconductors were the only ones I really found easy enough to use.

[Nick's Picks]

Let's summarize, shall we?

• some think it should only be used for it's intended purpose, and not for field recording
  
  
  Whaddya think...another 10 pages? 
  

that reason is stupid.
think of all the lonely vegetables out there that would be left ..., um... "un handled" if they were only used for their intended purposes!
no more poop-chute cucumbers, zuchini phallus, "mellon wholes"...

[boojum]

I stopped using your cables as the connectors are 180 out from what I want on the SD 722 inputs.

FWIW, you can easily change the angle that the cable exits with those RA neutriks.  The RA neutriks allow 7 different exit angles, every 45 degrees other than straight up (over the silver unlock tab on the 722). 

If you're interested in changing them, you'd need to unscrew the screws holding on the cap to the connector, take out the plastic insert, push the bottom portion of the connector up into the connector housing to unseat it, rotate the bottom portion to the new angle you'd like, reseat it, and then put everything back together.  I don't think you had the 722 when you got the cables from me, or at least I wasn't aware.  Getting those RA neutriks to fit on the 722 is a bit tricky, but they will fit.  Just need to alter the exit angle of the two cables from each other, so something like this:  \  /

Sorry you didn't find the cables to your liking.   I had been curious though about what you thought of the sound of them vs the Canares if you ever did a comparison.  Obviously, you might like the sound of the Canares better, or one could easily prefer the sound of the silver-clad cables, but not enough to overcome the difficulties you found with the cables (eg., lack of flexibility).  I've used three different kinds of Audio Magic cables, the Xtremes, the hyperconductors, and the Sceptors with the clear jacket -- those Sceptors sounded great, but man they were just way too much of the PITA to deal with.  Of the 3, all sounded great, but the hyperconductors were the only ones I really found easy enough to use.

PM sent

[George2]

i'm asking Santa for some milspec silver.

[Nick's Picks]

nice!

One thing i've noticed w/the millspec...
it will produce failures *more often* when used in short runs.  Like < 1 foot little ICs.  the cable doesn't easily flop around ..., so it puts stress on the solder joints.  24 or 26awg wire is thin..., and it breaks.

of all the repairs, failures i've seen its been with little ICs.  I'm going to find a new cable for those short runs.

[Tapeholio]

I have found the quad core to be more flexible than a single pair of thicker wire.  But 1804a is still way, way more flexible.

[George2]

Who cares about a broken solder joint, it'll sound better with silvers!

[George2]

Quote text from Arny Kruger:I called Santa and told him FORGET ABOUT THE SILVERS MY COPPER IS JUST FINE!


> Given that speaker distortion amounts to full percentage
> points of the input signal,

Speaker distortion affects the output sound, not the input signal.
> can gold-plated cables etc.
> really make that much of a difference?

Most gold plating, particularly in consumer audio, is eyewash.
Besides, the cables themselves aren't gold plated, its the connectors that
they gold plate. Most of the gold plating goes on the outside where it is
seen. Furthermore, gold in addition to being the opposite of cost-effective,
is also not that good of a performer when it comes to electrical contacts.

> True, the conductivity of gold, silver is marginally better than
> copper,

No, the conductivity of pure gold is worse than that of copper.
metalresistivity, nano-ohm-meter
silver    14.71
copper    15.80
gold    20.11
aluminum    25.00
zinc    54.55
iron    87.10

In connectors, remember that the metal you see is only a thin plated layer.
Because it is so thin, its conductivity is secondary. The conductivity of a
cable is most strongly dependent on the wire, not the connector, or a thin
layer of plating on the connector.

But you're right about the conductivity of silver being only marginally
better than that of copper. Rule of thumb is that one wire gauge larger
balances the books. IOW a 12 guage copper wire has about the same
conductivity as a 13 guage silver wire.

Besides, when you're talking conductivity, there's another dimension to the
equation. For example, the conductivity chart above shows conductivity
versus volume. Conductivity versus weight gives a different ranking.
Conductivity versus cost is a yet another ranking.  I believe that right now
aluminum is the champ for conductivity versus weight and cost. What matters
most depends on what you are doing.

> but it's hard to imagine that it would be audible.

Same story, all over again. What is the application?  The rules for speaker
cables and interconnects differ.
>   Not even in terms of speaker damping/ringing.

Speaker damping is a questionable concept. The relevant parameter is the
source impedance that the loudspeaker system sees when it looks back at the
amplifier which can affect the frequency response and therefore the sound of
the speaker at all audio frequencies.
The two strongest relevant parameters of cable are resistance by a country
mile, but also inductance to some degree. Some cable manufacturers obsess
over more esoteric parameters like skin effect, but in most cases inductance
is the stronger effect.

Of course, resistance rules. But even resistance runs into the law of
diminishing returns. Once you get the series impedance of a speaker cable
down to about 1/30th of the nominal impedance of the speaker, diminishing
returns has set in, big time. Cutting the series impedance of a speaker
cable even further  to 1/60th won't make it sound twice as good. In fact,
its a bit of an argument whether it will make any audible difference at all.

> Might be able to see something on a 'scope, but maybe not
> even then.

Scopes are pretty crude tools for evaluating connectors and cables.
> Are there other considerations, beyond that of quality
> construction/cable longevity?

Most cables that I've seen fail, and I see lots of failed cables, fail at
the point where a wire is attached to a connector. Gold or silver does very
little good there. It's all about mechanical design and care during
construction.
The best way to connect a wire to a connector is a well-crimped connection.
Solder runs a close second. Except in the case of special connectors that
are not frequently used for home and studio audio, solder the more reliable
method to use in the field. But neither crimping nor soldering guarantee a
reliable connection when the cable is flexed even just a modest amount. It's
all about strain relief.

Probably the biggest name in professional audio cables is Neutrik, a
connector manufacturer. Most of their connectors don't have gold plating,
and most of us would have it no other way. Neutrik have arguably built their
business on connectors with base metal contacts, overall mechanical
robustness, and easy-to-assemble but highly effective strain relief systems.

> Some people swear there is a difference, certainly the
> mfr of Monster cables, who appeared on The Big Idea, and
> is apparently making millions.

Monster cable is AFAIK still a private corporation, majority stockholder
Noel Lee. They don't manufacture anything but advertising, press releases,
and other business documents. Their business model is based on evangelizing
salesmen and management of audio stores with promises of increased
profitability. They organize lavish rewards for top sellers. They sell
products that other people manufacture for them.  They have a few patents,
but I don't know of any serious manufacturer of cables who worries much
about them. Monster IMO is about sizzle, not steak.

[Chilly Brioschi]

I was under the impression that gold is used to plate pins or contact points because it is very resistant to corrosion.
Gold elsewhere on a cable is essentially a waste, from a technical point of view.

A few other thoughts as I read through this thread:
Teflon is not Kapton.
Kapton comes in several "flavors" for different characteristics, such as heat resistance and flexibility.
I'm thinking that some folks are mistaking one for another, although that may not be the case.

Some wire is not designed to be handled, and may have chemicals in it which can be irritating to some people.
That is an issue which I don't hear about much anymore, but because we're sometimes talking about surplused wire, I thought it relevant.

Has anyone ever done a shootout of copper versus silver with the wire resistance equalized between samples?  Surely, other factors come into play, but that is one very large difference to eliminate as a variable.

[momule]

I just stumbled onto this thread.  I purchased Teflon cable from 4 separate vender's and all have  cracks in the Teflon. 
I'm not trying to knock anyones cables by anymeans as I have seen/used both Todd and Marcs cables and they seem to be ok. But this is why I personally choose the belden cable for my "phatcables"  Its very flexible and I personally like the sound better.  Its more expensive than the teflon but still cheaper than alot of the other cables that are pre made.

[JD]

teflon is really toxic to small critters.
If your cables ever get chewed by the family pet, it could be toxic to them (quick death for birds! We have two cockatiels, and no teflon pans, because just the gases emitted from cooking with it is too toxic for them).

That's good to know. I have a cat that likes to chew on wire every once and a while, can't seem to break him of the habit. Fortunately he seems to prefer the coiled phone wire and stays away from power wires.

[Nick's Picks]

nothing like chewing a little teflon !
maybe wash it down w/some anti-freese !
Mmmm !

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I buy my teflon cable from allied cable and wire. I'd return it if it was cracked or split. I think a lot of the 'surplus' stuff sold is rejected, scrap, etc.

[Javier Cinakowski]

you gotta try smoking teflon, good times!


 

[Nick's Picks]

I have seen a rip in the cable before when I get my stuff.  but its never in a bad spot.  guess i'm lucky.

[George2]

I saw a rip in a bad spot once.

[John Kelly]

Question for you guys that know about these mil spec cables.  What is the spec number of the most commonly used cable?  I work for a company that may have stock on them, but I need to know what I'm looking for. 

[StuStu]

Question for you guys that know about these mil spec cables.  What is the spec number of the most commonly used cable?  I work for a company that may have stock on them, but I need to know what I'm looking for. 

For what use? In other words, I use 10 gauge single conductor for speaker wire and 18-22ish gauge 2-3 conductor for XLR's. As for specific mil spec numbers, I believe there are many. I'll be glad to look at the numbers of what various wire I have lying around if you'd like. 

[John Kelly]

Question for you guys that know about these mil spec cables.  What is the spec number of the most commonly used cable?  I work for a company that may have stock on them, but I need to know what I'm looking for. 

For what use? In other words, I use 10 gauge single conductor for speaker wire and 18-22ish gauge 2-3 conductor for XLR's. As for specific mil spec numbers, I believe there are many. I'll be glad to look at the numbers of what various wire I have lying around if you'd like. 

The cables people are using to make mic cables out of.  There are thousands of MIL numbers, I'm just wondering which one is being used for our purposes.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I find the 24 awg quad to be fairly flexible (nowhere near 1804a):

mil-c-27500-24rc4s06

20 awg 3 pair can be quite stiff.  We still need to do a TS comp between 2 conductor vs. quad.

Decode info:

http://www.awcwire.com/PNB_Mil257600.aspx?id=MIL-C-27500

[newplanet7]

I work at a custom cable company.
I looked a bunch up from the catalogs at work.
I posted it here.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,100528.0.html

Now because it's an alpha cable it's pricey but you can get the generic brand for
a lot less $$. Same exact cable without the alpha name.
It's what I will be getting ina month or so.
19 strands
teflon outer
24awg
2 conductors

Cheers.

[willndmb]

Question for you guys that know about these mil spec cables.  What is the spec number of the most commonly used cable?  I work for a company that may have stock on them, but I need to know what I'm looking for. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,91631.msg1224445.html#msg1224445

[John Kelly]

Question for you guys that know about these mil spec cables.  What is the spec number of the most commonly used cable?  I work for a company that may have stock on them, but I need to know what I'm looking for. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,91631.msg1224445.html#msg1224445

Yeah that's not a MIL number.  But Freelunch and newplanet7 took care of it already, thanks.

[George2]

Why are y'all intent on using teflon cable? This is for permanent installations and should not be used for location. It doesn't flex well.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Why are y'all intent on using teflon cable? This is for permanent installations and should not be used for location. It doesn't flex well.

We do it to incite the cable trolls.

[newplanet7]

It flexes fine, especially when one uses techflex or expando.
I just made a pair yesterday. It's what hydra, bumblebees use.
I haven't heard of any problems with flexing.

[John Kelly]

It flexes fine, especially when one uses techflex or expando.
I just made a pair yesterday. It's what hydra, bumblebees use.
I haven't heard of any problems with flexing.

Adding techflex cannot make it more flexible.  It's simply a layer of protection.

And it *IS* more brittle than a rubber jacket, although it's been working out just fine for our uses.

[newplanet7]

It flexes fine, especially when one uses techflex or expando.
I just made a pair yesterday. It's what hydra, bumblebees use.
I haven't heard of any problems with flexing.

Adding techflex cannot make it more flexible.  It's simply a layer of protection.

And it *IS* more brittle than a rubber jacket, although it's been working out just fine for our uses.

Guess I should've worded that different.
It makes coiling easier.
Which is what I thought she was getting at.
-todd

EDIT:
Also I don't think we really have to worry about it being brittle or not flexible.
It isn't as flexible as canare quad but it is pretty flexible.
I for one don't beat on my cables.
they are pretty rugged believe it or not.
We have it at my work.

[Nick's Picks]

the big downfall w/the millspec is noise transmission.  but that would be w/any cable that is relatively stiff.

think zaolla.
that stuff is 10x the diameter of the millspec alpha wire we use.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

the big downfall w/the millspec is noise transmission.  but that would be w/any cable that is relatively stiff.

When I made my first SPC milspec cables I was disappointed with the noise, but that was with the caps on the bodies.  Shorties with actives or full length with the 414s, which have a suspended capsule, I've had no problem.

[George2]

the big downfall w/the millspec is noise transmission.  but that would be w/any cable that is relatively stiff.


Yes absolutely! I'm guessing most have about 10-15 ft of cable running from mics to recorder. I'm using what is standard.

[Tim]

Why are y'all intent on using teflon cable? This is for permanent installations and should not be used for location. It doesn't flex well.

We do it to incite the cable trolls.

[Divided_Sky]

brings up a question a related question - best source for mil-spec silver cable? anyone?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I'd rather experiment with mil-spec cables, than to, let's say,... experiment as a guy, posing as a girl, on the internet, ehh?

seriously, I thought you were more open minded than that.

[John Kelly]

brings up a question a related question - best source for mil-spec silver cable? anyone?

How much are you looking for?  I work for a distribution company that deals mostly with mil-spec materials, including cable.  I may know of a few places...

[George2]

What negative vibes for just asking a question.
Shame on you

[Jammin72]

I use Hydra's now.

The teflon isn't ideal in that it is rather stiff and only likes specific bends, the good news is that it's small enough to be very easy to thread in tight spaces and the stiffness has allowed me to turn the right angles directly up in the configutation aiding in the slack prevention for an accedental pull on the cable below.

A compromise to be sure but I think they're a great addition to the Warmer AKG and WarmMod Oade Sound, adds back a touch of speed and air.

[Jimna]

i find them to be an acquired comfort of use type of tool, but after your used to them its no big deal. 

they are more user friendly than copper in transport and storeage too. 
they seem to fit into smaller spaces, and the techflex lets them slide in and out sleekly.     

[Lex]

I have some unused 1/8" black flexible sleeving if anyone is interested in some.  Maybe easier to buy from me than some sources.  50 feet, whatever.

Lex