Author Topic: Some help with a playback system... help me spend my money! (Read 10898 times)

pjl100001 · « **on:** July 22, 2004, 02:50:51 PM »

So I have about $800 from my high school graduation and I need a nice playback system for next year in college. I was thinking about just going to best buy and getting a this yamaha reciever I had my eye on and a 5 disc changer to play through 2 jbl bookshelf speakers that were $150 a piece. I am about to just go ahead and do it but for some reason I think I might be able tofind some better deals. Can anyone help me out at all? Any suggestion would be appreciated. I plan on using this mainly in my dorm room and home bedroom and I was to be able to hook up my computer, tv and disc changer to one set of speakers playing mostly rock, jazz, blues, and country music.

jpschust · « **Reply #1 on:** July 22, 2004, 03:16:41 PM »

i think you can do better than that- a pair of used maggies and an intergrated amp and that 60 dollar toshiba cd/dvd player.

Craig T · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2004, 03:42:25 PM »

Panasonic xr50 receiver ($300)
Toshiba 4960 cd/dvd/dvd-audio/sacd player ($150)
Epos ELS-3 speakers ($300)

You'll have to go a little over the $800 when you include interconnects and speaker cables. You can do this cheap if you can DIY, otherwise I'd recommend a place like www.signalcable.com that basically sells good quality DIY designs but DI-for-you.

som · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2004, 04:05:12 PM »

Check out Ascend Acoustics speakers....I bought some of their CBM-170's and really enjoy them.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com

Spend some time browsing through the reviews at www.audioreview.com

MBecker · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2004, 04:28:38 PM »

jpschust, what kind of dorm room can hold maggies? Mine sure as hell didn't have that much room. My recommendation would be to get some bookshelf speakers, PSB Image 2Bs can be had for $250 a pair (normally 400). E-mail me at marcbecker@gmail.com for dealers. I'd look into a NAD or Marantz receiver.

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #5 on:** July 22, 2004, 04:30:44 PM »

The inexpensive used maggies are the smaller ones and I think they can be wall mounted.

Shit yeah, turn that dorm room into an audio love palace.

jpschust · « **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2004, 04:59:03 PM »

a- he didnt mention dorm room- a lot of my friends didnt live on campus their freshman years
b- the mmgs can be wall mounted, hence making them even better space savers than bookshelf speakers at times

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #7 on:** July 22, 2004, 05:29:14 PM »

Quote from: pjl100001 on July 22, 2004, 02:50:51 PM

I plan on using this mainly in my dorm room and home bedroom and .....

Better reproof those contracts. ;-)

Again, I encourage the love palace theme for all on campus living quarters.

pjl100001 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 22, 2004, 05:33:23 PM »

At this point I'm thinking about going with a pair of epos els 3 and the center channel speaker els 3c. As for the receiver, I'm leaning towards a sony strde 897s. I don't know too much about receivers but I found this for $315 and it has 7.1 dolby digital with 110 watts of power in each channel. That was much more than I found on a few onkyo and yamaha models I looked at in the same price range that only had 6.1 with 85-100 watts per channel. This should run a little over my budget with a 5 disc cd changer that I found for $90. Anyone have any other suggestions or does this seem reasonable?

Another question... how much does a cheap sacd player run for and will it work well this reciever I picked out?

And one more question... will DVD audio cds play in any dvd player? I'm just seeing a few things here and there about DVDA and it has caught my interest.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

PS. Yes Teabag, audio love palace is definitaly the plan...

MBecker · « **Reply #9 on:** July 22, 2004, 05:38:22 PM »

" 7.1 dolby digital with 110 watts of power in each channel"

not all watts are created equal. Every manufacturer rates watts differently, so i definitely would not buy one off specs. I would guess, that a 70 watt NAD receiver probably has a lot more power than the 110 watt sony. I'd recommend checking out the ecoutics.com message board, along with www.avsforums.com and http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/index.php for more playback advice.

Craig T · « **Reply #10 on:** July 22, 2004, 06:07:40 PM »

if going the receiver route, the Panny "xr" series (30, 50, & 70?) with the digital amps CRUSH the other cheap offerings from Sony, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc. Don't sweat the "watt" ratings, you should be fine with anything >30 wpc. I also wouldn't worry too much about 6.1 vs 7.1 - in a dorm room its all going to sound the same.

That Toshiba 4960 I mentioned supports CD, DVD-video, DVD-audio, SACD, MP3, and the recordable CDR's and DVD-R's. I have one on the way. The 3960 has become a cult favorite for cheap mod-able player, I bet the 4960 will also have a bunch of mod's available if you find you want to squeeze a little more quality out of it. As for changers vs. single disc, I'd stick with the single - they typically sound better (due to better transport I assume).

pjl100001 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 22, 2004, 06:13:03 PM »

Craig T, you say "if going the receiver route..." what other route would you suggest?

And as for speakers, I'm split between the maggie mmgs or the epos els 3 and els3c... anyone have any suggestions here?

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2004, 06:18:25 PM »

Here is a nice integrated for less than $400:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1094914912

here are some maggies for just over $400:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1094998055

get one of those toshiba DVD players for $60 and use it for CDs and video unless you have to have SACD and DVDA.

There is a pair of MG1s on audiogon for $250 but if you need space, wall mounted mmgs is a really good option. You'll have a better system than one from best buy for the same money and the resale will be good too on the maggies and jolida. The jolida has a tubed preamp, so you have the option of playing with different tubes.

Anyway, these are just suggestions. I'm sort of old school with the tubes and the just two channels, but the digital amps would be a solid bet too. I usually recommend going with used higherend stuff so that you can resell at minimal loss when (not if) you upgrade. You'll see a lot of the NAD and Sony stuff show up on audiogon too if you want to go that route. The digital amps may be too new to be on audiogon yet.

jpschust · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2004, 06:22:37 PM »

Quote from: teabag on July 22, 2004, 05:29:14 PM

Quote from: pjl100001 on July 22, 2004, 02:50:51 PM
I plan on using this mainly in my dorm room and home bedroom and .....

Better reproof those contracts. ;-)

Again, I encourage the love palace theme for all on campus living quarters.

hahaha im a jackass :-) i said 95 not 100 :-P

dnsacks · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2004, 06:27:20 PM »

What are your listening goals? Listening to music or home theater? In your budget range, I think you'll do a lot better limiting yourself to 2 channels and skipping the center channel (and surrounds) for now. Also, re cd changer -- I'd buy a single disk version. I picked up a changer thinking it would be THE "solution" -- turns out I play all my music through my single disk dvd player.

I also agree with Craig on the digital amp side -- I have a more expensive sony digital amp and love it. The beauty of the digital amps is that they are fed a digital signal by the cd/dvd/etc. player, meaning that even the cheapest cd player will sound REAL close to a high-end one.

On speakers, KEY point -- be sure to listen to 'em. Just because some folks love magnaplaners doesn't mean that you won't find 'em to be totally lacking in bass, etc. -- IMHO, especially on speakers, ignore the specs and focus solely on the sound.

pjl100001 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2004, 07:38:37 PM »

Would I need an amplifier if I bought an integrated receiver?

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2004, 07:49:14 PM »

Quote from: pjl100001 on July 22, 2004, 07:38:37 PM

Would I need an amplifier if I bought an integrated receiver?

No. Thats what an "integrated" receiver is. The preamp and amp are integrated into a single package to allow cost savings such as using the same power supply for both. "Reciever" comes from also having an integrated AM/FM radio tuner. I don't think many have those anymore but the reciever name seems to have stuck in the consumer product lines. In most high end product lines they label it an integrated amp.

MBecker · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2004, 09:22:34 PM »

"And as for speakers, I'm split between the maggie mmgs or the epos els 3 and els3c... anyone have any suggestions here?"

i'd highly recommend listening to the maggies before buying them. A lot of people rave about their imaging, but produces it in a small area, being that you said you'll be in a door room where acoustics probably won't be good, you won't get that benefit. Also the lack of bass will be another issue without a sub. Also, size is a major issue, you might be able to wallmount them, but if you have concrete walls in your dorm, thats not always doable. I'd really be suprised if you can pull off two speakers with 14.5x48x1.25 specs. If you have your room specs already it might not be an issue, but I had no idea what size a room i was moving into until the day i got there. Also, you'll need to get a receiver that can handle the 4 ohm load with the maggies, thats not something a cheap receiver will do. With that said, i'm not trying to knock maggies, just that I think they arent the right solution for someone moving to college. I think a pair of bookshelves or even sattelite speakers like the Klispsch RSX-4 (very unique sound, some people seem to love or hate it) would be more pratical http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=709

jpschust · « **Reply #18 on:** July 23, 2004, 09:17:41 AM »

you can do an amc amp + bk st240 for like 500 bucks, that handles the 4ohm load just fine.

MattD · « **Reply #19 on:** July 23, 2004, 08:08:43 PM »

Quote from: dnsacks on July 22, 2004, 06:27:20 PM

I also agree with Craig on the digital amp side -- I have a more expensive sony digital amp and love it. The beauty of the digital amps is that they are fed a digital signal by the cd/dvd/etc. player, meaning that even the cheapest cd player will sound REAL close to a high-end one.

"Digital amps" have nothing to do with digital signals being accepted. They are really digital switching amps, which provide either no current or full current (digital) and switch between the two stages at a very high rate of speed. For an example, check out the writeup on my amp, the PS Audio HCA-2.

pjl100001 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 23, 2004, 08:58:36 PM »

Quote from: jpschust on July 23, 2004, 09:17:41 AM

you can do an amc amp + bk st240 for like 500 bucks, that handles the 4ohm load just fine.

can you explain with an amc amp and a bk st240 are?

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #21 on:** July 23, 2004, 10:43:43 PM »

Quote from: pjl100001 on July 23, 2004, 08:58:36 PM

Quote from: jpschust on July 23, 2004, 09:17:41 AM
you can do an amc amp + bk st240 for like 500 bucks, that handles the 4ohm load just fine.

can you explain with an amc amp and a bk st240 are?

here are some resources:

www.audiogon.com
www.audioreview.com
www.audiocircle.com
www.audioasylum.com

I know that it can be daunting, but if you can use google effectively you can get alot of opinions and info from those resources. Several of those sites have member galleries and system pages. You can research the systems people have assembled and what the strengths and weaknesses are. Everyone here has favorite gear and opinions, but we are a small sample of what is possible.

pjl100001 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 23, 2004, 11:16:56 PM »

well my biggest question at this point is what would be the difference between buying an integrated amp as opposed to a seperate pre-amp and power amp. With a budget now around $1000, what would be the best bang for my buck?

jpschust · « **Reply #23 on:** July 24, 2004, 01:32:31 AM »

if you can stand having two seperate units i say do that. im always changing my sound around, though not for the next 6-12 months i've promised myself. By having a seperate pre and amp you gain much more ability to just change one piece around. Additionally, I like the mix of a tube amp or pre with a solid state amp or pre- just having the two together makes a nice combo.

dnsacks · « **Reply #24 on:** July 24, 2004, 11:14:45 AM »

MattD said ""Digital amps" have nothing to do with digital signals being accepted. They are really digital switching amps, which provide either no current or full current (digital) and switch between the two stages at a very high rate of speed."

Actually, the new crop of sony digital amps do just this -- seems they convert all (analog and digital) inputs to dsd (same 1 bit digital used by sacd) and the dsd signal feeds the digital amp, making it (the amp) the final stage in the d>a conversion).

See sony's white paper on these amps at http://www.docs.sony.com/release/STRDA3000ES_TWP.pdf

Back to the thread at hand -- IMHO, given the total budget available for the playback system, my thought would be to not worry about seperate components on the amp side at this point and concentrate on getting the best sounding pair of speakers possible. In other words, listen to a bunch of different speaker options in, say, the $500-700 a pair pricerange, choose a favorite, and then assemble a more modest system around the speakers. This would provide a great sounding system and a clear future upgrade path to improve/compliment the sound of the speakers. I did just this back in my college days, maxing out some credit cards to pick up a pair of b&w dm220i's in the mid-'80s -- still run/enjoy these speakers to this day

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #25 on:** July 25, 2004, 12:57:11 PM »

Quote from: pjl100001 on July 23, 2004, 11:16:56 PM

well my biggest question at this point is what would be the difference between buying an integrated amp as opposed to a seperate pre-amp and power amp.

As mentioned, having seperate components allows you to upgrade either independently and match pre and amp to get a desired sound. This can be a real asset as you upgrade. If you get different speakers, you may need to get a more powerful amp. With seperate components, you can change the amp and keep your preamp. Also, seperates allow you to use a tube preamp ahead of a solid state power amp. Alot of people really like the tube sound but can't afford the cost of a high powered tube amp, so they run a SS amp which is less expensive than a tube amp of similar power and a tubed preamp to get the sound they want. I encourage you to try a tubed preamp. I think that most digitally sourced systems are too strident and the tubes can warm up the sound without smearing detail.

An integrated unit does not afford you the flexibility of seperate components. But you may get better perfomance than seperates at the same cost. Integrated amps share the same cabinet and power supply so they cost less to produce. An integrated can also be a better solution for someone who has limited space. Integration eliminates the cost and sonic influence of one set of interconnects.

If you want to get an integrated unit, there are some hybrid designs with tube preamp and solidstate amp like that Jolida. If you want to deal with seperates, there is an inexpensive tube preamp that was described here. Search for YS-Audio (I think, I'm sure someone can correct me). That pre-amp and a decent used power amp like a hafler DH220 (about $175) or B&K ST-140 (about $250). Either of those amps will drive most of the speakers in your range.

It comes down to a balance of flexibility, convenience, and cost. Seperates will be more expensive but very flexible and will require more space and a pair of decent interconnects. An integrated amp will be less expensive and easier to move between the dorm and your house, but you have no opportunity to swap the amp or pre. However, if you decide to get a tube/SS hybrid, you can change the sound by swapping different tubes into the preamp.

Quote from: pjl100001 on July 23, 2004, 11:16:56 PM

With a budget now around $1000, what would be the best bang for my buck?

I think in your case, limited funds and being in a dorm, I'd get an integrated hybrid and that $60 toshiba player. Later you can get the toshiba modified. Spend about 100 for kimber PBJ for the DVD->Integrated Amp and some bulk kimber speaker cable. That would leave you about 400 for speakers. A digital amp would be good too, I just like tubes alot.

pjl100001 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 26, 2004, 09:18:23 PM »

Teabag, you have been extremely helpful... thanks. I like the idea of the Jolidas having the tube pre amp but I really want to be able to have more than 2 channels and be able to hook up my computer, tv, and cd changer to one set of speakers. Would this be possible with a tube pre amp?

BC · « **Reply #27 on:** July 26, 2004, 11:40:13 PM »

Quote from: dnsacks on July 24, 2004, 11:14:45 AM

Back to the thread at hand -- IMHO, given the total budget available for the playback system, my thought would be to not worry about seperate components on the amp side at this point and concentrate on getting the best sounding pair of speakers possible.

I agree 100%. Speakers are almost always the most colored piece of gear in any given playback system, spend as much as you can on speakers and go low-budget on the electronics, then you can always upgrade them when you get some more $$. I always recommend the Paradigm line when people are looking for speaker recommendations (I have a pair of active 20's and love em!), look at the Atom and Titan for small bookshelf models, depending on how much you want to spend also check out the Monitor line as well as the Reference line. The Reference 20's are 2 way speakers in the $600 range that IMHO can hang with the big boys costing several times more. Here are a couple links to start, main page (very poorly laid out) is:

www.paradigm.ca

Also check

http://www.paradigm.ca/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/ParadigmProduct.html

http://www.paradigm.ca/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/ParadigmModels/MonSeriesII/MonitorSpecs.htm

Happy shopping!
Ben

Tim · « **Reply #28 on:** July 27, 2004, 12:47:47 AM »

fwiw - the NAD inetgrateds have pre-amp outs, allowing you to go to seperates later if you so desire. an integrated is a nice place to start, saving you money and space while you figure out exactly what sound you're going for.

dnsacks · « **Reply #29 on:** July 27, 2004, 12:55:50 PM »

Quote from: pjl100001 on July 26, 2004, 09:18:23 PM

Teabag, you have been extremely helpful... thanks. I like the idea of the Jolidas having the tube pre amp but I really want to be able to have more than 2 channels and be able to hook up my computer, tv, and cd changer to one set of speakers. Would this be possible with a tube pre amp?

What exactly are your goals for $1,000?

Above, it seems like you want to have a multichannel surround setup (with more than 2 speakers?) that would allow you to listen to your computer, tv and cd changer, and for all of this to be fed through a tube-powered preamp?

I think you're going to need to make a few choices --

Specifically:

1) can you do without multichannel sound (5-7 channels), period (i.e. go with a straight 2 speaker stereo without a direct upgrade path to surround sound/dolby digital, etc.?)

2) can you stand to defer having multichannel sound until you can budget for additional speakers?

3) do you need multichannel sound NOW!

If option 1 is ok with you, by all means look to the tube pres, seperate amps/preamps, etc. etc. I'd be SHOCKED if you could find a decent sounding tube-based multichannel preamp and amp combo that would come close to fitting within your budget.

If option 2 is the way to go for you, you're going to need to go down the integrated amp route and start with a integrated surround sound receiver (using just the main 2 channels to power stereo speakers until you can afford new ones). Again, probably going to be VERY difficult (impossible?) to find seperate components for multichannel use anywhere near your budget. At your budget, I'd take a careful look at the panasonic digital amp mentioned above as well as the sony strda2000es.

If option 3 is the only way for you, good luck -- you're going to need to make a lot of compromises in order to have 5 halfway-decent sounding speakers at your pricepoint.

Finally, each of the options listed above should have no real problem running your computer, tv & cd/dvd changer, just check to be sure that whatever preamp/integrated amp has at least 3 line level inputs.

Tim · « **Reply #30 on:** July 27, 2004, 01:20:44 PM »

fwiw - I think you will be happier with 2 channels of quality than 5 of mediocre!

BC · « **Reply #31 on:** July 27, 2004, 02:22:51 PM »

Quote from: Tim on July 27, 2004, 01:20:44 PM

fwiw - I think you will be happier with 2 channels of quality than 5 of mediocre!

agreed

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #32 on:** July 27, 2004, 03:22:12 PM »

Quote from: pjl100001 on July 26, 2004, 09:18:23 PM

I really want to be able to have more than 2 channels and be able to hook up my computer, tv, and cd changer to one set of speakers. Would this be possible with a tube pre amp?

Tubes vs solid state has nothing to do with the number of inputs a preamp will provide. It depends on the manufacturer and the model.

The link to a review of the Y-S Audio preamp is here: http://www.nickspicks.com/.

Edit: I didn't finish before I hit submit.

You probably are not going to find a working multi channel tube pre-amp in your budget. I agree with those who already said a good 2-channel system will probably make you more happy than a mediocre multichannel system.

pjl100001 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 27, 2004, 09:04:32 PM »

Ok, this is what I have in mind now...

I'm sold on these Sony receivers. They're a little expensive but as I keep looking at all of this equipment, my budget seems to be growing. I like the str da1000 and the cheapest I've found it is $470. Anyone know any other cheaper places? I'm going to spring for the Toshiba SACD player amd a pair of Epos ELS3 bookshelf speakers along with the ELSC3 for the center channel. For now I will have to wait to employ the other 4 channels and the subwoofer will wait as well but I guess it leaves me something to ask for for my birthday or maybe christmas.

So what do you guys think? I'm still very much an amateur at all this so let me know if I'm spending too much here or there or I'm buying something unneccesary.

scervin · « **Reply #34 on:** July 27, 2004, 10:41:41 PM »

You can do so much better buying a used receiver like a denon or marantz. It would just have to be a bit older. Unless it is of the ES line I would really pass on the Sony. Check audiogon and ebay. The used market is the way to go with the budget you have.

BC · « **Reply #35 on:** July 28, 2004, 12:49:53 AM »

Quote from: pjl100001 on July 27, 2004, 09:04:32 PM

Ok, this is what I have in mind now...

I'm sold on these Sony receivers. They're a little expensive but as I keep looking at all of this equipment, my budget seems to be growing. I like the str da1000 and the cheapest I've found it is $470. Anyone know any other cheaper places? I'm going to spring for the Toshiba SACD player amd a pair of Epos ELS3 bookshelf speakers along with the ELSC3 for the center channel. For now I will have to wait to employ the other 4 channels and the subwoofer will wait as well but I guess it leaves me something to ask for for my birthday or maybe christmas.

So what do you guys think? I'm still very much an amateur at all this so let me know if I'm spending too much here or there or I'm buying something unneccesary.

Those speakers look decent, I think they got a pretty positive review in Stereophile a little while ago.

dnsacks · « **Reply #36 on:** July 28, 2004, 11:25:08 AM »

Call the oades (via www.oade.com) and see what they can sell you the sony for -- I STRONGLY recommend getting the strda2000es instead of the 1000 -- VERY different system (the 2000 is a digital amp using the same setup as the more expensive 3000 and 5000es, the 1000 is a different beast).

Good Luck, I think you'll enjoy this setup a LOT.

Darrin

Tim · « **Reply #37 on:** July 28, 2004, 04:12:00 PM »

Quote from: dnsacks on July 28, 2004, 11:25:08 AM

Call the oades (via www.oade.com) and see what they can sell you the sony for -- I STRONGLY recommend getting the strda2000es instead of the 1000 -- VERY different system (the 2000 is a digital amp using the same setup as the more expensive 3000 and 5000es, the 1000 is a different beast).

Good Luck, I think you'll enjoy this setup a LOT.

Darrin

what Darrin said!

pjl100001 · « **Reply #38 on:** July 30, 2004, 11:55:10 PM »

Anyone know where I can find a cheap price on the sony str-da2000? The cheapest I've seen so far is $525 and I know I can do better than that.