Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: open taping - how high to put the mics on a stand ??  (Read 3272 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pillowman

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
    • www.openingtime.lima-city.de
open taping - how high to put the mics on a stand ??
« on: April 13, 2017, 01:00:50 PM »
Heya !

last weekend I had the opportunity to give the 'open taping'
method my first try. I used an home made stand (see the pics)
and a pair of AT853cards (w/4.7 k mod) placed around 3 mtr up
right beside the mixing desk.
When I checked the recording at home I liked what I heard but
for my taste the recording includes to much crowd talk.
So the question is were the mics placed to low or did I used the
wrong capsules ?
What I wanted to capture was some live feeling for an sbd / aud
matrix for further video clips.
So any help what I can do better for my second  try  :shrug:
any help would be awesome
cheers
pillowman
RECORDERS: Sony PCM-A10 / 3x Sony PCM-M10 / TASCAM DR-2d / Sony NH 600 / Sharp MD-MT180(H) / Sony MZ-R35
MICS: LINE AUDIO CM3, AT853c, ATU853c, hc  (4.7k mod) / Sony ECM-717 / 3x Sennheiser ME104
BBox's: Denecke PS-2 / SP-SPSB-9 / SP-SPSB-10 / SP-SPSB-20 / Soundman A3

trading page: www.openingtime.lima-city.de

Offline pillowman

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
    • www.openingtime.lima-city.de
Re: open taping - how high to put the mics on a stand ??
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2017, 01:04:32 PM »


RECORDERS: Sony PCM-A10 / 3x Sony PCM-M10 / TASCAM DR-2d / Sony NH 600 / Sharp MD-MT180(H) / Sony MZ-R35
MICS: LINE AUDIO CM3, AT853c, ATU853c, hc  (4.7k mod) / Sony ECM-717 / 3x Sennheiser ME104
BBox's: Denecke PS-2 / SP-SPSB-9 / SP-SPSB-10 / SP-SPSB-20 / Soundman A3

trading page: www.openingtime.lima-city.de

Offline lsd2525

  • Trade Count: (18)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3397
  • Gender: Male
  • Eschew obfuscation
Re: open taping - how high to put the mics on a stand ??
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2017, 01:26:03 PM »
Generally, the higher you go, the further you are away from people, thus less crowd noise. You're always going to have some; the cards reject sounds from the side and back, but in the front it's not going to reject from "up" and "down".
Mics: SKM184's; ADK A51s; AT4041; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
Recorders: M10; DR-60D; DR-701D

Offline noahbickart

  • phishrabbi
  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 2554
  • Gender: Male
  • So now I wander over grounds of light...
Re: open taping - how high to put the mics on a stand ??
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2017, 02:50:32 PM »
In order to be of much help, I'd need a few other pieces of information:

1) What kind of music was this?
2) What kind of PA, and how loud?
3) What was your location relative to the PA, and how much flexibility do you have in placement?

In general, when trying to tape a PA, you might begin to at one point of an equilateral triangle, in which each PA stack forms another point.

Cardioids are likely to yield good results if set-up properly. You might want to search the forums on the "Stereophonic Zoom."
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline pillowman

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
    • www.openingtime.lima-city.de
Re: open taping - how high to put the mics on a stand ??
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2017, 05:18:29 AM »
In order to be of much help, I'd need a few other pieces of information:

1) What kind of music was this?
2) What kind of PA, and how loud?
3) What was your location relative to the PA, and how much flexibility do you have in placement?

In general, when trying to tape a PA, you might begin to at one point of an equilateral triangle, in which each PA stack forms another point.

Cardioids are likely to yield good results if set-up properly. You might want to search the forums on the "Stereophonic Zoom."

òla !

here ar some more facts to get a clue what I've done and how, ...



from the pic you can imagine how far the stand was placed and how the speakers were placed.
The venues will have around 500 - 1000 peolpe capacity and the stand will always be placed close to the mixing desk.

the concert was l amplified ike this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SktPnKVYg8I

The goal is to record the live sound to give the sdb source more live, atmosphere for the live video clips.

hope this additionally details will help a bit,
cu
pillowman
RECORDERS: Sony PCM-A10 / 3x Sony PCM-M10 / TASCAM DR-2d / Sony NH 600 / Sharp MD-MT180(H) / Sony MZ-R35
MICS: LINE AUDIO CM3, AT853c, ATU853c, hc  (4.7k mod) / Sony ECM-717 / 3x Sennheiser ME104
BBox's: Denecke PS-2 / SP-SPSB-9 / SP-SPSB-10 / SP-SPSB-20 / Soundman A3

trading page: www.openingtime.lima-city.de

Offline morst

  • I think I found an error on the internet; #UnionStrong
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5950
Re: open taping - how high to put the mics on a stand ??
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2017, 05:28:13 PM »
You can take advantage of the cardioid pattern's off-axis pickup, and aim them up, and away from the earth-bound talkers. The music should still "hit" the pickup part of the lobe, not the rejection portion.

I often point my array 45 degrees upwards, especially outdoors where you won't pick up ceiling reflections.

Generally, the higher you go, the further you are away from people, thus less crowd noise. You're always going to have some; the cards reject sounds from the side and back, but in the front it's not going to reject from "up" and "down".


Watch out going too high outdoors, wind is sometimes much worse when there aren't people's heads to block it.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 05:30:11 PM by morst »
https://toad.social/@morst spoutible.com/morst post.news/@acffhmorst

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: open taping - how high to put the mics on a stand ??
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2017, 09:59:22 AM »
Higher mics = less pickup of immediately adjacent audience (specific voices, often the loudest individuals simply because they are close), but won't reduce the overall level of audience pickup by much.
Closer to PA = more pickup of PA relative to the overall audience due to the PA level increasing as you get closer to it, but overall audience noise remaining about the same.
More directional mics = potentially less audience noise if close enough and if oriented appropriately as others have noted.

Morst makes good points about aiming the mics, and about the increased potential for wind or ceiling reflections if positioned very high.  Also consider that the response of some PAs changes dramatically with height.  Some will have more or less the same sound quality up high as they do just above head height.  Others will sound very different up high compared to head-level.  And that response difference may be better or worse.  Don't assume that it will sound the same just cleaner up high.

Also, as you go higher mic stand stability becomes an increasing concern.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline pillowman

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
    • www.openingtime.lima-city.de
Re: open taping - how high to put the mics on a stand ??
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 10:44:42 AM »
thanks for some more help here - will have a chance to tape open next weekend again,
will tell you about the result if you like  :shrug:
.
cheers and happy taping
pillowman
RECORDERS: Sony PCM-A10 / 3x Sony PCM-M10 / TASCAM DR-2d / Sony NH 600 / Sharp MD-MT180(H) / Sony MZ-R35
MICS: LINE AUDIO CM3, AT853c, ATU853c, hc  (4.7k mod) / Sony ECM-717 / 3x Sennheiser ME104
BBox's: Denecke PS-2 / SP-SPSB-9 / SP-SPSB-10 / SP-SPSB-20 / Soundman A3

trading page: www.openingtime.lima-city.de

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: open taping - how high to put the mics on a stand ??
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 11:08:16 AM »
More specifics regarding change of response with increasing height- Typically there will be somewhat less very low bass reinforcement the higher you go (due to getting further out of the boundary-layer zone near the ground ), and the mid/high frequenceis might change either way- either more enegry from having a clearer line of sight to the PA, or less if starting to get above the high-frequency radiation coverage cutoff angle of the horns in the PA.  But those differences are typically more obvious when recording outdoors.  Inside, room reverberance often dominates, making those differences less noticeable if present.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline acidjack

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (37)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 5845
  • Gender: Male
Re: open taping - how high to put the mics on a stand ??
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2017, 01:45:00 PM »
Very generally, I think you want your mics as low as you can "get away with" -- meaning, that most closely approximates what your ears hear in the crowd (since the show is usually mixed by someone whose ears are at roughly the same height) but avoids "too much" crowd noise (which varies by crowd, type of music, etc.).

Which is to say, there's no hard and fast rule, but you want to avoid things like being too close to the ceiling, or you'll end up with a bunch of unwanted reflections. And of course you have to make judgments about how much crowd noise you'll tolerate, basing that judgment on who is actually around you at the time.

This is also a reason I favor balcony clamps whenever possible... getting the mics out away from the crowd tends to be a big help in crowd noise rejection, if that's an option.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.079 seconds with 39 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF