Topic: Help needed to find the best portable recorder with really good internal mics

[Xonic]

HI guys. I'm new to the forums, but have been very impressed by the thoughtful discussions I've seen here.
I have a problem which I'm hoping someone can help me out with.
I'm looking for a recorder with really good internal mics, low noise and is quick to boot up. Budget isn't an issue, but something with a nice sound and good stereo image is a must.
I should explain that I'm totally blind which will become more relevant down the post, so I've  very sensitive ears and really hate the sound of hiss
I've laid out a number of recorders and options and the issues I have with them below, this might give people an idea before responding. I should say I've done a lot of research into this and so far, zip.

So:
Zoom h4n: Have this, love the sound it produces. Hiss noise is a bit nasty, but you don't notice it outside for the most part. Main issue with this is boot up time, horribly horribly slow. Have been told could increase cluster size on memory card, may fix but not tried yet. In any case, one of the mics on mine is now intermittent and I can't quite justify buying another one when it is so slow.

ls-100: have this also, love the noise flaw, not so fond of the internal mics, I like something that captures ambience as well as what it's pointed at and the ls is quite directional. Also, really dislike the non-locking input knob, but can get around this issue I guess.

A device with an external mic: Not bad as an idea, but usually a lot bigger and has cables trailing, plus, haven't found a decent stereo mic I like. Bp4025 has a hole in the image, AT822 or 825 are ok but not great off axis and nasty bass peeks, nt4 quite dull sounding, senheiser pairs are getting a little ridiculous, £1800 for mics seems a bit farfetched to me.
As an FYI on this point, I'm happy with the ls as the recorder for an external mic. I'm trying the pearl msc2 mic so we'll see what that's like.

zoom h1 and h2n: had both, quite cheap, nice little recorders in their own right, but dislike the sound. mics are too small and tinny.

zoom h6: did a full length review of this if anyone's interested with samples, Not overly fond of the ZY internals on here, MS and XY are both very hissy, unit is very big and don't need all the features. Plus, very easily moveable knobs.

tascam recorders with internals: All the ones I've heard have tiny internal mics with really poor imaging, happy to take another point of view on these but not heard good things about them.

Small Nagra SD recorders with internal mics: This is the one I was most surprised at, the amount of background hiss on these things even with the low noise modular stereo mic is astounding. I really resent the ~~~~£1000 price tag for such a horribly bad quality product. NO offence to anyone who may have one of these, but the mic hiss is out of this world.

Roland r-26: Very curious about this recorder, not heard it or tried it. The only major issue with this one I can see is that it needs a touch screen which for me as a blind person is going to be very difficult to use. I am curious to know if you can set it all up and then just use the stop, record, play and skip buttons like you would another recorder, also whether you can trigger the screen by accident or whether you have to hit a menu key first. If the latter, it might be an option as I've heard good things about it./ Then again, I wonder how you transfer files to the computer with it? do you have to use the touch screen?

Sonys with internal mics: Not used any of these, however, have heard stereo imaging is bad, plus, very difficult to control wind buffeting and no easy way to fit a rycote on them. Also not a fan of Sony stuff in general, tends to break, but happy to take another viewpoint on these recorders.

Marants: I hate the noise flaw on these, plus, they're so big. Quite useful as broadcast kit I guess but personally I don't like all the background hiss and size.

So, there we go. a very long rundown of all the stuff I've researched, apologies for anyone that read all of that.

My options right now as I see them are, get a stereo external mic that I like and use with the ls100,or, buy a new h4n and just accept the horrible boot time, or, try an r-26 with the proviso that I won't be able to use a lot of it and may mess a setting up without meaning to.
I should say if it's not already clear, that the reason I want good internals is to have a very small form factor without all the cables. I like the idea of pulling a device out that already has a wind jammer on it, unruffling the wind jammer a bit and then hitting power on and record.
Any suggestions or thoughts to this post welcome.

Many thanks.
Ed.

[Ozpeter]

Hi Ed,

I appreciate you want to avoid external mics, but have you thought about in-ear mics such as http://www.roland.com/products/en/CS-10EM/ which can produce remarkable results with inexpensive recorders?  There are many examples of its recordings on youtube.  As you wear them rather than hold them, they can provide a completely hands free rig if the recorder is in your pocket.

[cashandkerouac]

Hi Ed:  welcome.  finding a comfortable balance between quality and convenience is always a struggle.  I think the suggestion to explore in-ear mics is a good one. I don't know much about in-ear / binaural mics, but it's worth investigating.  If you're making stealth recordings the in-ear mics might look a lot like earplugs and shouldn't attract attention.

As for recorders, I think you have a lot of very good options.  If you really want an all-in one unit and definitely do not plan to use external mics I think a Sony D-50 is worth consideration.  Start-up is very fast, external mics are good (and they are adjustable); background hiss is low and it's extremely well built.  It will also support external mics if you choose to go that way at some point.  The D-50 is discontinued, so you would need to find one used.  Prices are all over the place on ebay, but you should be able to find a clean one for $350 - $400.  The Sony M-10, by comparison, is smaller than the D-50.  It's also cheaper, and you can still purchase it new.  The external mics, however, are a major downgrade in my opinion.  It's a great solution if your using external mics, but not good for use as an all-in-one recorder.  You might also look at the Marantz 661 with the Oade Concert Mod.  It also has extremely fast start-up and extremely low background hiss.  I recently switched to the Marantz and am very happy, but I only use external mics and have never tested it's internal mics. 

Best of luck with your search.  There are lots of good choices and I'm sure you'll find something that suits your needs.

[2manyrocks]

I have a couple of questions for the OP to better understand your goals.

Why is the quick boot up time important to you?  What kind of situations are you trying to record? 

If there was a way to quickly deploy an external mic setup, would that be of help to you?  Gutbucket, for example, posted his very well thought out microphone setup he built for himself that eliminates a lot of fiddling around.  He uses a portable stand, DPA microphones, and some custom cable loom that fits into a small carry bag.  I suspect he can setup in about one minute because he's customized his rig for this purpose. 

Something like that could open up other possibilities to you so you're not confined to a recorder with internal mics.   

[Xonic]

HI guys, thanks for the replies. So, to address some of the points above:

I do have binaural mics, however, i don't like the sound they produce as I mostly listen through speakers. I can do post production editing to fix this a little but ultimately still prefer an XY or an MS configuration.

Fast boot up time is important to me for a couple of reasons. Firstly because often I'm not aware of something big which is about to happen infront of me unless someone makes me aware of it, as I have no sight. Also, important because I can't see when a device is booted. The horrific H4N boot up times meant i had to keep testing and testing it for almost a minute until it was ready. I guess it's not hugely important, but over 10/15 seconds is perhaps too long.

I never put my mics on stands, the way I record is traveling around with someone holding their arm, whilst my right arm holds the mic. It's a sort of documentary style if you will this is why an all in one unit works so well for me, i can whip it out, no cables, and just hit boot up and record.

That said with the all in one and externals, i have been considering throwing in the towel as it were, and getting a 702 with a really good mic. The problem is i don't want to pay something like £1500 for a mic, because I might bump it,where as the SD is built like a tank. It seems there aren't any good handheld mics for this price other than the pearl ms2c.

The d-50 is something i've been considering. HOw well do those external mics work to stay in position? do they get knocked about a lot? can they break off or are they tight like the zoom h4n?

If anyone has good external stereo mic recommendations, or a pair of stereo mics mounted in a small housing i'm also interested. NOt sure for example how good the Busman mic is? never heard it. Then there are the set of NT55s to consider but again, not sure how good or how wel they could be mounted.

Thanks.

[yates7592]

You could also check out the new Sony PCM-D100. I can't vouch for the boot up time but the internal mics and preamps are supposed to be a step up from the D50, with lower signal to noise ratio as well together with DSD and 24/192 options. The price is much higher than the D50 though and it is currently only available in Asia.

Re the R-26, I've used one of these. You do have to hit the menu button to get into the screen options. And you don't need to use the touch screen to transfer files. Just take out the sdhc card and put in a USB card reader and plug into your PC. I don't know what the internal mics are like, but you have several options there including 4 channel internal mic recordings if thats the way you want to go. I did read there was lots of handling noise on the internals though.

[2manyrocks]

The Rode NT4 has a pair of stereo capsules mounted together on a large mic body.  The mics are powered by a 9v battery inside the mic body.  It comes with a pair of card capsules which some find brittle sounding.  The omni capsule is regarded by some as better sounding.  retail $529  The folks at Gearslutz seem pretty opinionated one way or the other on these capsules. 

There's a list of higher end mics in this thread at Gearslutz.  http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/806362-stereo-mic-thread-master-list.html  Beware that money seems to be no object on GS.  There are some expensive items in that thread. 

The problem you may have is that microphone positioning is essential to getting the most out of any mic.  In concept, I would have a hard time justifying spending $1,000 or more on mics intended for stand use that would be handheld.  Perhaps more importantly to you, this would be inconvenient and not immediately ready for your use as you said you want. I suspect you would be better served by something else. 

My thoughts are that you might consider adding a higher end "wearable" mic setup like the DPA 4060s to what you already have. They are about $900 a pair retail.   These are well regarded and small enough to wear.   Although you don't seem concerned about stealth, you can apply some of the methods that tapers have used for your own convenience, to meet your need of immediate availability for use, and to get good recordings.   Put them in a hat, mount them to eye glasses, mount them to a set of headphones,....leave your hands free, but they would be ready to use in an instant. 

On the topic of boot time, consider adding an external battery power supply and just leave your recorder running or on pause.

It would be great if some other TS members could share some of their experience with you using the DPA mics and possible setups that could work for you.

 

[Xonic]

Rocks, I hear what you're saying about mics that I can put on my body, the problem I always find is the binaural effect which doesn't translate well to speakers,so try to avoid that.
However, the PCM-d100 does sound a very interesting option. I'd guess it would come over here at some point, I'll have a look at some reviews. What does it look like? strong? well built etc?
Is it possible to unscrew the capsules on the nt4? I didn't much like the sound the nt4 on it's own, but imagine the omnis might be nicer.

[hoppedup]

Also not a fan of Sony stuff in general, tends to break, but happy to take another viewpoint on these recorders.

I would say for small recorders, the Sony stuff is pretty damn durable. The mics on the D50 will not move unless you move them. They have a wire cage protecting them as well. I'm pretty rough on gear and my D50 has performed flawlessly for over 5 years.

If you don't mind a really cheap option the internals of the Teac VR-10 are pretty good (plenty of samples in this thread): http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=159584.0

[2manyrocks]

The omni capsule is interchangeable on the NT4.  Before buying, I would check to see if you can buy the NT4 with omnis instead of buying it with the cards and paying more for the omni capsules.  Otherwise, for the $800 retail price of the NT4 and omni capsules, I'd spend an extra $100 and get the DPA mics in my personal opinion.  There's a guy on GS that used the NT4 for a bit, and I noticed he upgraded to the DPAs.  He also has Gefells and is running them through a DAV preamp.   He's not the sort to upgrade just to upgrade, either, and he has made some nice recordings. 

Part of the hiss issue might be addressed by using an external preamp.   

Others may have a different opinion, but it seems to me that looking for the best portable recorder with really good internal mics is sort of looking for a lepruchan with a pot of gold.  If such a device existed, why would there be so many threads asking about different recorder/preamp/mic configurations? 

[fmaderjr]

The omni capsule is interchangeable on the NT4.  Before buying, I would check to see if you can buy the NT4 with omnis instead of buying it with the cards and paying more for the omni capsules.  Otherwise, for the $800 retail price of the NT4 and omni capsules, I'd spend an extra $100 and get the DPA mics in my personal opinion. 

Without even hearing samples I'd get any decent omnis before I'd use omni caps on an NT4. I have an NT4 with cardioid caps and Studio Projects C4 hyper card caps (which fit), but I would not use omni caps wiiith this mic. The NT4 is a stereo mic with the capsules set up in a fixed XY configuration. This is not ideal for omnis- they need to be a few feet apart or have a buffer (like your head) between them or the imaging is not going to be good.

The DPA's, however, would be a good option. If you decide to go that route and are not going to be recording extremely loud material, I would recommend the DPA 4060's over the more popular 4061's due to the lower noise floor.

[Xonic]

I had thought the Rode NT4 with omnis wouldn't work well, since the XY configuration would give a very strange stereo image like that. Curious about the DPAs, just not sure how big the whole thing would be when set up. I'd also need some sort of fixed mount for an XY configuration or something similar, a mount that didn't adjust when it was accidentely knocked about. Any one have any idea how loud sounds can be with the DPAs? realistically I might end up recording things like trains etc and it would be unfortunate if it caused clipping. This is why the BP4025 is such a good mic, other than the fact it has the nasty hole in the middle. I am still hopeful though for the PCM-d100 if it comes out here, I think the microphones on that would be good enough for what I want.

[2manyrocks]

I appreciate fmaderj's  post because I hadn't considered the xy problem.   

DPA specs for max SPL before clipping are 134 on the 4060 and 144 on the 4061 Lo-Sens model. 

I have no idea how loud trains get.  The horn on those things is loud.     

[dogmusic]

It sounds like you're in the UK, in which case there is a new SONY PCM-D100 for sale here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/691276/brand-new-unopened-sony-pcm-d100-linear-digital-recorder-and-hifi-player-price-dropped

(I have no connection to the seller.)

As for quick boot-up, the fastest recorder I've used is the SONY M-10. Also, battery life is so long that you can just leave the M-10 on when you're out recording.

[Xonic]

So interestingly, I heard a new podcast on the zoom h6 yesterday. It sounded completely different from the unit I reviewed back in August. My unit did have a dodgy preamp, but listening to the one this guy reviewed, It seems that that wasn't the only thing not working. I've ordered a new one to try today. I've also got a pearl ms2cl on order which I'm going to try with an external preamp/recorder. I'll let you know how I get on. I think I'd like to try the PCM-d100 before I commit nearly £700 on it and at the moment there wouldn't be a way of returning it