Author Topic: DA-P1, is it the pre or the AD that is "iffy" (Read 6598 times)

nic · « **on:** January 31, 2005, 04:14:01 PM »

or is it both?
I know with the Sony dats, the mic pre overloads easily.

does the DA-P1 mic pre overload easily?
(trying to think of something short term that wil get me by until I can get a pre/ad combo)

Tim · « **Reply #1 on:** January 31, 2005, 05:32:45 PM »

it does overload pretty easily.

the a/d is grainy but passable. I have many good tapes made with mics->pre->dap1

ethan · « **Reply #2 on:** January 31, 2005, 06:10:05 PM »

My problem with the DA-P1 is if you go line in with XLR's it's referenced to +4dBu and if you go mic in with XLR's it's TOO sensitive. So you absolutely need a pre amp.

As for the AD I agree with Tim but a good pre infront allows you to get better level control and the closer your levels are to 0dBFS the better it will sound. YMMV.

-e

noahbickart · « **Reply #3 on:** January 31, 2005, 06:35:45 PM »

For me, the trick has been to run the -10db mad on the mics and the -20db pad on the deck. When I do this I've never had anything put sucess with the p1. To my ears the cheaper mic pres (beyer, mp2, etc) have not produced noticablly superior results. It remains a really good all in one solution.

-Noah

Gordon · « **Reply #4 on:** February 01, 2005, 11:12:09 AM »

three or four of my best tapes of the year were 480 > dap1. I ran the dap1 with the -20db. that being said the shows in question were hot tuna, edie brickell and cowboy junkies. when I taped NMAS with this set up I had a few small overloads. YMMV

JAH · « **Reply #5 on:** February 01, 2005, 12:18:45 PM »

The P1 is a good all in one recorder and if you run mic-in get the mod by Oade (if he still does them?)...The modified sbm-1 will eat the P1's lunch.

Quote from: ethan on January 31, 2005, 06:10:05 PM

My problem with the DA-P1 is if you go line in with XLR's it's referenced to +4dBu and if you go mic in with XLR's it's TOO sensitive. So you absolutely need a pre amp.

As for the AD I agree with Tim but a good pre infront allows you to get better level control and the closer your levels are to 0dBFS the better it will sound. YMMV.

-e

Line-in is the rca's... If you have it set to line in and go xlr in then you will be killing the mic input, which is expecting a small signal when a relatively large "line-in" sig going in. Either use the right input or pad the hell out of the mic in (which I wouldn't recommend if you can help it, cause you will be throwing away a hotter signal thus reducing your signal to noise (increasing your noise by reducing the signal...cause the noise is always there).

LUVEAN:
Another option would be to use an outboard phantom and go line-in but if you NEED gain this might not work for you, in which case go mic in and run the pad.
what have you seen as levels and settings form past usage?

peace
jah

nic · « **Reply #6 on:** February 01, 2005, 01:24:06 PM »

Quote from: JAH on February 01, 2005, 12:18:45 PM

LUVEAN:
Another option would be to use an outboard phantom and go line-in but if you NEED gain this might not work for you, in which case go mic in and run the pad.
what have you seen as levels and settings form past usage?

peace
jah

I havent...just received the DA-P1 last week, and my Gefells/JKLabs box should arrive next week.
originally I had gotten Alex Herds DMIC-20(BurrBrown mod) for a pre/ad but the right channel ket dropping out in testing so Alex took it back.

so I need to get at least a outboard pre/phantom, but was wondering if I also need to get a outboard ad as well.

Tim · « **Reply #7 on:** February 01, 2005, 03:52:48 PM »

the P1 ad isn't the greatest but it is certainly passable and will get you by for awhile... congrats on the new gear!

JAH · « **Reply #8 on:** February 01, 2005, 03:54:58 PM »

Quote from: luvean on February 01, 2005, 01:24:06 PM

Quote from: JAH on February 01, 2005, 12:18:45 PM
LUVEAN:
Another option would be to use an outboard phantom and go line-in but if you NEED gain this might not work for you, in which case go mic in and run the pad.
what have you seen as levels and settings form past usage?

peace
jah

I havent...just received the DA-P1 last week, and my Gefells/JKLabs box should arrive next week.
originally I had gotten Alex Herds DMIC-20(BurrBrown mod) for a pre/ad but the right channel ket dropping out in testing so Alex took it back.

so I need to get at least a outboard pre/phantom, but was wondering if I also need to get a outboard ad as well.

NEED to and want to upgrade for efforts of getting the best possible pull are 2 diff things....

Talk to Jon and ask him what/how much gain is coming out of the jklabs box w/ your caps and if you should/can run mic in. (is it mic or line level output of the jkbox?)

Doesn't the JK provide phantom for the caps...so you would only have to run the jk box into the P1 (mic-in w/ or w/o pad or, line-in).
Your jkbox is providing the phantom right? not sure what configuratoin of the box you are getting...once you figure that one out then the rest will follow.
Try the P1's ADC...it doesn't suck...it's not an outboard but better than say...D7/8 adc. If you can borrow a couple of diff adc's then maybe you can see which best suits your ears.

jah

nic · « **Reply #9 on:** February 01, 2005, 04:14:13 PM »

Quote from: JAH on February 01, 2005, 03:54:58 PM

NEED to and want to upgrade for efforts of getting the best possible pull are 2 diff things....

Talk to Jon and ask him what/how much gain is coming out of the jklabs box w/ your caps and if you should/can run mic in. (is it mic or line level output of the jkbox?)

Doesn't the JK provide phantom for the caps...so you would only have to run the jk box into the P1 (mic-in w/ or w/o pad or, line-in).
Your jkbox is providing the phantom right? not sure what configuratoin of the box you are getting...once you figure that one out then the rest will follow.
Try the P1's ADC...it doesn't suck...it's not an outboard but better than say...D7/8 adc. If you can borrow a couple of diff adc's then maybe you can see which best suits your ears.

jah

my JK box does not provide phantom. it is designed so the pre will provide the phantom.
I guess I need to figure out if I want to get a nice pre(m248, v2) and use the DA-P1 AD or get a ok pre/ad combo(t-mod ua5)

JAH · « **Reply #10 on:** February 01, 2005, 04:28:53 PM »

Quote from: luvean on February 01, 2005, 04:14:13 PM

Quote from: JAH on February 01, 2005, 03:54:58 PM
NEED to and want to upgrade for efforts of getting the best possible pull are 2 diff things....

Talk to Jon and ask him what/how much gain is coming out of the jklabs box w/ your caps and if you should/can run mic in. (is it mic or line level output of the jkbox?)

Doesn't the JK provide phantom for the caps...so you would only have to run the jk box into the P1 (mic-in w/ or w/o pad or, line-in).
Your jkbox is providing the phantom right? not sure what configuratoin of the box you are getting...once you figure that one out then the rest will follow.
Try the P1's ADC...it doesn't suck...it's not an outboard but better than say...D7/8 adc. If you can borrow a couple of diff adc's then maybe you can see which best suits your ears.

jah

my JK box does not provide phantom. it is designed so the pre will provide the phantom.
I guess I need to figure out if I want to get a nice pre(m248, v2) and use the DA-P1 AD or get a ok pre/ad combo(t-mod ua5)

So use the P1 as phantom/mic-in and see how you like it...unless you are eally picky and know you WANT ourboard gear the P1 should make you smile.
There is an sbm in the yard sale area...have it modified and enjoy!....unless you know you have something in mind.
again maybe you know some people who can loan you their pre

enjoy the decisions ;-)
jah

nic · « **Reply #11 on:** February 01, 2005, 04:43:16 PM »

jah thanks.

my main concern is the pre of the DA-P1 overloading.
I knew in advance the ad section is just ok.
the stuff I mainly tape is very loud rock/electronic stuff and the Gefells are a "hot" mic as far as levels are concerned, so I want to minimize the possibility of overloading the preamp.

I also dont want to use the pads on the mic and the pre simultaneously as that can introduce low-level noise in the system.

JAH · « **Reply #12 on:** February 01, 2005, 04:48:12 PM »

Quote from: luvean on February 01, 2005, 04:43:16 PM

jah thanks.

my main concern is the pre of the DA-P1 overloading.
I knew in advance the ad section is just ok.
the stuff I mainly tape is very loud rock/electronic stuff and the Gefells are a "hot" mic as far as levels are concerned, so I want to minimize the possibility of overloading the preamp.

I also dont want to use the pads on the mic and the pre simultaneously as that can introduce low-level noise in the system.

well if you bought your P1 from oade, Doug will do a mic-in mod that helps that out ;-)...if not??? you may have to drop some pad(ding) on it..as long as you have a good SNR then you should be just fine.

let us know what you find on your first outting....hell, go somewhere to run it even if it is a sucky band. You can always leave early ;-)

gfl
peace
jah

eric.B · « **Reply #13 on:** February 01, 2005, 05:30:02 PM »

For loud! rock shows in semi- smal/mediuml venues.. you can run phantom power (ps2/b18 etc) Line in to(rca) the dap1 and you should get pretty good if not great results. When in larger places(sheds/arenas etc) and there isnt enough db's coming from the source, buy a pair of line transformers for that tiny boost of clean gain. Thats what friends of mine did (akg > b18 > at tranformers > line in D8) back when they were taping the Grateful Dead from the section in 93, 94, 95)

I have used the DAP1 in both instances, and while the ADC in the DAP1 isnt the best, it is "acceptable" to my ears. For acoustic low level stuff, I have run mic in/phantom on the P1 with great results.. just watch your levels..

of course.. you could get a pre and run line in (which is what i do V2>DAP1) with good results.. The ADC in the P1 isnt the "greatest" like I said, as it is a tad "grainy" like most say.

jk labs · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2005, 10:38:06 PM »

Quote from: luvean on February 01, 2005, 04:43:16 PM

jah thanks.

my main concern is the pre of the DA-P1 overloading.
I knew in advance the ad section is just ok.
the stuff I mainly tape is very loud rock/electronic stuff and the Gefells are a "hot" mic as far as levels are concerned, so I want to minimize the possibility of overloading the preamp.

I also dont want to use the pads on the mic and the pre simultaneously as that can introduce low-level noise in the system.

Luvean,

you're facing Gefells yielding -40 dB re 1V @94 dB SPL. That's a pretty standard mic level. It means 0.01 Volts rms at 94 dB SPL. 100 mVolts at 114 dB SPL.

The mic pre in the DA-P1 is a discrete front & op-amp buffer design of fine performance (wrt to noise and linearity). One could argue that the parts used are not the best but hey.

The signal then heads into an op-amp buffer with gain (a summer actually, the line-in comes here as well). This is the point where the signal will brickwall first.

The real problem is that the DA-P1 mic pre is strapped for 40 dB gain. The pad drops it by 20 dB.
The mic pre brickwalls with 15 mV (no pad) and 150 mVolts (-20 dB pad) on the XLR inputs.
So with 114 dB on the mics you have essentially no headroom left!

There is a -15 dB pad _inside_ the box powering the MG actives. I recommend you activate
this pad when using the MG set with the DA-P1.

PS The signal path in the DA-P1 is mic-pre, inverter/summer, attenuator(volume control), buffer stage with limiter function, buffer/inverter and lastly the 18 bits ADC. All in all a fairly complex signal path. Just what part of the sound that can be attributed to the ADC alone is not easily established :-)..

nic · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2005, 11:29:20 PM »

Jon,

I had no intention of using the pre/ad of the da-p1 except as a last resort(ie, forget to charge battery or equipment malfunction).
I was mainly asking this question as, at the time, I hadnt decided on getting just a outboard pre and using the da-p1 ad, or getting a outboard pre/ad combo to run in front of the da-p1.

I knew I wanted some warmth behind the Gefells, but I needed to decide if I wanted it at the pre or ad level.
guess I'm getting it on both levels with a Apogee MiniiMe. of course, this could(probably) change....

grider · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2005, 09:54:05 AM »

good question, after I sold my V3 but before I bought my UA5, I made some excellent recordings running my 480's directly into my DAP1, I had no problems whatsoever with sound quality or digital overs, while I hear on reliable information that the "limiter" function on the P1 is to be avoided like the plague I believe the preamp and the adc functions are perfectly acceptable, and while I think separate pre's and adc's are preferable I would have no problems relying on the DAP1 to do it all again if necessary

creekfreak · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:26:41 PM »

I have also run mics straight into my da-p1, did it with my mbho's a few times...made perfectly acceptable tapes.

jk labs · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:35:25 PM »

Quote from: luvean on February 22, 2005, 11:29:20 PM

Jon,

I had no intention of using the pre/ad of the da-p1 except as a last resort(ie, forget to charge battery or equipment malfunction).
I was mainly asking this question as, at the time, I hadnt decided on getting just a outboard pre and using the da-p1 ad, or getting a outboard pre/ad combo to run in front of the da-p1.

I knew I wanted some warmth behind the Gefells, but I needed to decide if I wanted it at the pre or ad level.
guess I'm getting it on both levels with a Apogee MiniiMe. of course, this could(probably) change....

The system (in transit till mid/late next week?) is both clean and extended re the main body. I'm not convinced it will need much warming up. I.e. approach this with an open, critical mind and see what suits you the best.

Jon

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #19 on:** February 24, 2005, 05:45:34 AM »

ive always said i loved the dap1 as a pre or a/d or both

i have KILLER nak>dap1, akg 480 >dap1(the tapes i heard that made me buy 480's back in 99 and still stick w/ em til this day

) , mk41>v2>dap1(SWEET tapes right there)

and even the 391>dap1 tapes are badass, cad>dap1, really any mic sounds pretty decent into it IMO

Gordon · « **Reply #20 on:** February 26, 2005, 01:52:17 AM »

again I made some great tapes 480 > dap1. def prefer the v3 in there but between when my ad1000 died and I could get something else I still pulled some great tapes. most of them acoustic. did have some overload issues when taping NMAS.