Topic: DPA4061s -> DPA MMA6000 -> MT24/96 - PROBLEMATIC Gain levels & Slight clipping

[dactylus]

Hello,


I'm running:  DPA4061s -> DPA MMA6000 -> MT24/96 -> My dilemma



     After 6 months of waiting I have finally undergone my taping baptismal by fire.  TWICE in 3 nights.  I purchased my new gear the first week of January 2006 and on January 12, 2006 I suffered a bad fall on "black ice" on a Minnesota highway.  As a result of this fall I suffered a  SEVERE right wrist break & I have undergone herniated disk surgery for my lower back!!  Total pain and suffering for 6 months...  I am now FINALLY able to try my gear out!!



During my VIRGIN taping session (which was the first of what I'm sure will be will be many learning experiences) I absolutely could not lower the gain enough on the mt 24/96 to avoid clipping, at least this appeared to be the case from what I was seeing on the "red light - clipping" indicators on the MT 24/96!!  It was definitely "slightly" clipping.



1).  I stealthed this show from a lower balcony seat that was directly in line with and approximately 60-70 feet from the "suspended" left stack.  There was no opening act so I could not get a read on the sound levels before the show started!!


2).  Once the show began I could see that the levels were too hot and I immediately LOWERED the record levels on both channels of the MT24/96 to their lowest setting and reduced the gain on the dpa mma600 to 0 db.


I still could not CONSISTENTLY achieve a record level below 0 db and I had numerous minor incidents of clipping throughout the show - I was so freaking frustrated that I even activated the dpa mma6000 "low cut switch-in filter that inserts a 12dB/octave 100Hz low cut" into both channels".  This definitely reduced the number of clips, but as I was cautioned in a previous thread, activating the filter definitely eliminated a lot of the bass "richness/fullness" of the sound during playback.


     http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=67153.0



    Last night I recorded a second show, great seats, 30 feet from the stage, almost DFC, great sound in the theatre.  I was sure that things would turn out differently this time since the sound of the performance was not nearly as overpowering as two nights before.  WRONG!   I DID NOT activate the "12dB/octave 100Hz low cut filter" for this recording but I still COULD NOT achieve a recording level consistently below 0 db !!!!!  Minor clipping again!!!

The mma600 is connected to the MT24/96 with a dpa 1/8" cable.



MERCY, MERCY, HELP ME!!!!



What in the heck am I doing wrong?


     I'm recording again tomorrow night.



     I absolutely could not lower the recording levels low enough to avoid clipping.


Is there some easy setting or adjustment that I' missing here?   I've checked the FAQs and I cannot find an answer to this specific problem when running DPA4061s -> DPA MMA6000 -> MT24/96.




Secondly, Can someone PLEASE give me any advice on how I can remove the "excessive bass" and minor clipping I've encountered making these two recordings in post production?  I haven't made my BIG software purchase yet and I would be delighted to know what software you have done this with successfully.

These were two GREAT shows and I would love to salvage them if I can.  I would highly recommend seeing Emmylou Harris/Mark Knopfler & Elvis Costello & the Imposters w/Allen Toussaint.


thanks,


David

[fozzy]

isn't the mini input on the MT for Mic in w/ power.  I think the 1/4" inputs are for the line input along w/ the switch on the side to set the gain range.

[guysonic]

isn't the mini input on the MT for Mic in w/ power.  I think the 1/4" inputs are for the line input along w/ the switch on the side to set the gain range.

I think not an issue with powered input feature.

Suggest NOT using the mini-jack as strongest mic signal possible before clipping is ~ -13 dBm or 166mv rms. DPA easily outputs >.25 volts so likely to clip mic preamplifier 1st stage recording amplified venue.

1/4 inch inputs (you'll need stereo miniplug to dual 1/4" TR plug adapter) have 6 gain selections from max input ~ +3 dBm (~1.0 volt rms) to - 41 dBm. 

This gives a lot of options for line to mic input levels without chance of clipping. 

There's a gain chart of deck settings in the review at www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm 
Also, very well built, but bit costly molded low profile adapter is available there.

[grider]

having run the 4061>mma6000 combination many times now, I would suggest that the problems you are encountering are associated with your Microtrack unit only; honestly, I have to jack the levels up on the preamp pretty high to get high levels, yet even when you have the gain on your preamp at zero its still too high; either you have a defective mma6000 which is unlikely, or you are not using your Microtrack properly; you will need to set up and record at home in front of your stereo, rather than at crucial times like at shows when the band takes the stage, to diagnose your problem, its probably an easily solved one, something set improperly or your cords are running into the wrong inputs or something like that

[dactylus]

isn't the mini input on the MT for Mic in w/ power.  I think the 1/4" inputs are for the line input along w/ the switch on the side to set the gain range.

I think not an issue with powered input feature.

Suggest NOT using the mini-jack as strongest mic signal possible before clipping is ~ -13 dBm or 166mv rms. DPA easily outputs >.25 volts so likely to clip mic preamplifier 1st stage recording amplified venue.

1/4 inch inputs (you'll need stereo miniplug to dual 1/4" TR plug adapter) have 6 gain selections from max input ~ +3 dBm (~1.0 volt rms) to - 41 dBm. 

This gives a lot of options for line to mic input levels without chance of clipping. 

There's a gain chart of deck settings in the review at www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm 
Also, very well built, but bit costly molded low profile adapter is available there.

Thank you Moke, fozzy, guysonic & grider!!!!


     You plucked me from the depths of ignorance and my own stupidity & trusting nature! I received some bad cabling advice from someone!   I sure wish that I had asked my questions yesterday!

I definitely plucked up those recordings!!!


 

Live & learn the hard way- Damnit!!!  Two great shows that I plucked up!!  Damnit!


Any chance that I can salvage these two shows via software - if they aren't screwed up too badly?



                      


David

[dactylus]

isn't the mini input on the MT for Mic in w/ power.  I think the 1/4" inputs are for the line input along w/ the switch on the side to set the gain range.

I think not an issue with powered input feature.

Suggest NOT using the mini-jack as strongest mic signal possible before clipping is ~ -13 dBm or 166mv rms. DPA easily outputs >.25 volts so likely to clip mic preamplifier 1st stage recording amplified venue.

1/4 inch inputs (you'll need stereo miniplug to dual 1/4" TR plug adapter) have 6 gain selections from max input ~ +3 dBm (~1.0 volt rms) to - 41 dBm. 

This gives a lot of options for line to mic input levels without chance of clipping. 

There's a gain chart of deck settings in the review at www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm 
Also, very well built, but bit costly molded low profile adapter is available there.

Yes - this is where I screwed up:

1/4 inch inputs (you'll need stereo miniplug to dual 1/4" TR plug adapter) have 6 gain selections from max input ~ +3 dBm (~1.0 volt rms) to - 41 dBm

I did practice using a home stereo CRANKED UP - apparently not loud enough.

 


thanks,

David

[olyrc]

I've got the 4061>mma6000 setup myself.  When I had the MT24/96 I used one of these:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-MICROTRACK-MINI-TRS

Works like a charm.

[udovdh]

This thread makes it clear that you do not need a `pre`.
A batterybox will suffice.

[dactylus]

New cables & the corresponding correct "line in" did the trick - many thanks to you wonderful folks here at TS


                                                 

[pfife]

This thread makes it clear that you do not need a `pre`.
A batterybox will suffice.

I have 4060 - > MMA6000, and I record a lot of really really loud stuff.... I've yet to see the need to apply gain from the MMA... but the 4060s are a bit more sensitive than the 4061s.

glad you got your problem worked out dactylus.  I've made a similar error and hosed a recording I wish I would have made.  Happens to everyone.

[dmaster]

I have 4060 - > MMA6000, and I record a lot of really really loud stuff.... I've yet to see the need to apply gain from the MMA... but the 4060s are a bit more sensitive than the 4061s.

personally, I prefer to leave the recording volume on the MT at the lowest possible setting, and adjust the volume on the MMA instead.   I trust the amplification on the MMA more than I do the MT for a ton of reasons.   (plus my mics are a bit "off" and +1.5 from the MMA on one channel balances them out nicely). 

[pfife]

I have 4060 - > MMA6000, and I record a lot of really really loud stuff.... I've yet to see the need to apply gain from the MMA... but the 4060s are a bit more sensitive than the 4061s.

personally, I prefer to leave the recording volume on the MT at the lowest possible setting, and adjust the volume on the MMA instead.   I trust the amplification on the MMA more than I do the MT for a ton of reasons.   (plus my mics are a bit "off" and +1.5 from the MMA on one channel balances them out nicely). 

I definately agree with your reasoning, but I worry about brickwalling.

[udovdh]

I repeat:
You do not need a 'pre'.
There is plenty of signal.
And the MT is not bad for slight amplification.

[pfife]

I repeat:
You do not need a 'pre'.
There is plenty of signal.
And the MT is not bad for slight amplification.

depends on the spl

[udovdh]

I repeat:
You do not need a 'pre'.
There is plenty of signal.
And the MT is not bad for slight amplification.

A gross generalization!

Please specify?

[pfife]

I don't record loud music, and you're lumping me in with the PA tapers.

if its too loud, you're too old.   

[udovdh]

Of course I was referencing to dactylus' situation. He doesn't need 70-ish dB's of gain.
He gets signal in the input range of the recorder with 0 dB of gain.

[pfife]

Of course I was referencing to dactylus' situation. He doesn't need 70-ish dB's of gain.
He gets signal in the input range of the recorder with 0 dB of gain.

ah, sorry for the mistake - I personally thought you were talking "in general".

[dactylus]

Of course I was referencing to dactylus' situation. He doesn't need 70-ish dB's of gain.
He gets signal in the input range of the recorder with 0 dB of gain.

All is well with dactylus now my friends, thanks to your advice!!  I've taped a couple of shows since acquiring the "right" cables and needed less than 15 db of gain in both situations out of the mma6k (with mt2496 settings at lowest gain level)

thanks again!!

 

[udovdh]

Of course I was referencing to dactylus' situation. He doesn't need 70-ish dB's of gain.
He gets signal in the input range of the recorder with 0 dB of gain.

All is well with dactylus now my friends, thanks to your advice!!  I've taped a couple of shows since acquiring the "right" cables and needed less than 15 db of gain in both situations out of the mma6k (with mt2496 settings at lowest gain level)

In what kind of setting was this?
'Rock' concert in arena? Small concert hall? Open air?

[dactylus]

Of course I was referencing to dactylus' situation. He doesn't need 70-ish dB's of gain.
He gets signal in the input range of the recorder with 0 dB of gain.

All is well with dactylus now my friends, thanks to your advice!!  I've taped a couple of shows since acquiring the "right" cables and needed less than 15 db of gain in both situations out of the mma6k (with mt2496 settings at lowest gain level)

In what kind of setting was this?
'Rock' concert in arena? Small concert hall? Open air?

One show was open air "taste of minnesota" - 15 feet in front of sbd - about 100' from the stage - STEALTHING - the sound folks did NOT do a very good job here - very muddy sound coming out of the pa - one thing that I noticed about this show was that besides the muddy sound there were periods where the sound sorta sounded like it was being directed 180 degrees, backwards, away from the crowd - what might account for this?  Very odd to my "newbie ears" and of course not conducive to a good recording - I swear it sounded like they "rotated the stacks 180 degrees for several minutes" and then the sound seemed to rotate another 180 degrees and be directed back towards the crowd, the way it should have been - this happened numerous times during the show -   I'm sure that this is a common occurrence, it is just something that I never thought about before at other live shows other than the passing annoyance of "screwy sound".  Any ideas on the cause of this?  A little breeze during the show, but nothing significant and not really breezy during these "180 degree "flip" episodes...

But the show was free (and I got to hear alice cooper perform "Eighteen" 30+ years after hearing it on my transistor radio   ) and this was my first test run since acquiring the right cables and going "line in" to the mt2496 - i think that I used about 7.5 db gain and that was a little too conservative, I was just paranoid about another session of clipping and it was definitely a stealthing situation - I think that I should have probably used 10-15 db gain here

2nd show - small bar - NOT stealth - 25 feet from the stage at the Turf Club in Saint Paul, Minnesota - a "Vibro Champs" show - gain at lowest setting from the mt2496 - 15 db gain from mma6000 - perfect levels - but the sound was pretty crappy in that club - once again, another test run and a learning experience - The Vibro Champs used to be a staple of the bar scene in The Twin Cities before one of the guitarists moved to Austin, TX to pursue new avenues as an artist - Lots of rockabilly from the Vibro Champs and if you're into rockabilly they have a couple of really good albums for sale -

I recorded this show 24/48 and sweated the "2 gb split" which occurred about 8 seconds after a song break - I would have started another file sooner but they never took a set break and played for about 2.5 hours straight...

Two good learning experiences for me!!  I'm still pissed that I hosed the emmylou/knopfler show and the elvis costello show with clipping problems - SF 8.0 is on the way and I'm gonna play around with both shows that had clipping and see if I can do anything with them.

once again many thanks to all of you!