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Author Topic: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)  (Read 58842 times)

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Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #90 on: January 30, 2013, 04:22:19 PM »
Class 10 in itself is way more than fast enough, even class 4 is sufficient.  Your particular class 10 card is compromised.  Not all makes of them work well.  It appears yours is sufficient for writing stereox2 but not monox4 files.  I'd switch cards even if it works in stereox2 mode.

I've had similar problems with sketchy cards in the past. I changed cards and the problem disappeared.

Agreed completely.  I record exclusively in the "Mono x4" mode on my R-44 and have never (ever) run into the "SD card is too slow" message, even with class 4 cards.  What brand of card are you using?  SanDisk are generally excellent but they are also widely counterfeited so you have to make sure you're buying them from a reputable dealer.  FWIW, I've also had reliable results using PNY and Kingston SD cards in my R-44.

cashandkerouac

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #91 on: January 30, 2013, 06:41:05 PM »
Class 10 in itself is way more than fast enough, even class 4 is sufficient.  Your particular class 10 card is compromised.  Not all makes of them work well.  It appears yours is sufficient for writing stereox2 but not monox4 files.  I'd switch cards even if it works in stereox2 mode.

I've had similar problems with sketchy cards in the past. I changed cards and the problem disappeared.

Agreed completely.  I record exclusively in the "Mono x4" mode on my R-44 and have never (ever) run into the "SD card is too slow" message, even with class 4 cards.  What brand of card are you using?  SanDisk are generally excellent but they are also widely counterfeited so you have to make sure you're buying them from a reputable dealer.  FWIW, I've also had reliable results using PNY and Kingston SD cards in my R-44.

It's a Patriot LX series class 10 32gb card.  if it's just the card then i'm not worried.  it totally works fine (and always has) in "Stereo x2" mode.  i just assumed that it would also be fine in "Mono x4" mode.

does the "Mono x4" mode place more demand on the SD card compared to "Stereo x2"?

Offline macdaddy

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #92 on: January 30, 2013, 08:38:03 PM »
  I record exclusively in the "Mono x4" mode on my R-44

may i ask why you do this..?
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akg c422 > s42 > lunatec v2 > ad2k+ > roland r-44

Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #93 on: January 30, 2013, 09:13:03 PM »
^^  I forgot to preface with "When I record 4 channels..."  For me, I find it more flexible and easier to process in post with 4 mono channels as opposed to 2 sets of stereo recordings.  And with the 2GB file size limit on the R-44, I've never had to append two files together due to a split when recording in mono.

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #94 on: January 31, 2013, 12:44:44 PM »
^^  I forgot to preface with "When I record 4 channels..."  For me, I find it more flexible and easier to process in post with 4 mono channels as opposed to 2 sets of stereo recordings.  And with the 2GB file size limit on the R-44, I've never had to append two files together due to a split when recording in mono.

Actually its not the R-44 imposing the 2GB file size limit, it is the Fat32 file format that the R-44 uses. Nitpicky I know. I've rarely had a show run long enough that the recorder had to start a new file but when it does I haven't had a problem appending the files. What audio editor are you using? It does leave a very tiny gap between the two files but I can't actually hear it. I've heard some folks claim they could but I highly doubt it.
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Offline macdaddy

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #95 on: January 31, 2013, 01:24:34 PM »
I think that appending leaving a gap depends on the audio editor. when you use samplitudenyou can line them up exactly. if you don't, you can hear it. I use wave editor now, and when you open them up as consecutive layers, the program lines em up perfectly and you don't hear it.

never thought of the mono setting so that the track size wouldn't be an issue-I always have split files because I run 24/96. I guess odd channels would be left and even channels would be right..?
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akg c422 > s42 > lunatec v2 > ad2k+ > roland r-44

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #96 on: January 31, 2013, 01:36:29 PM »
I think that appending leaving a gap depends on the audio editor. when you use samplitudenyou can line them up exactly. if you don't, you can hear it. I use wave editor now, and when you open them up as consecutive layers, the program lines em up perfectly and you don't hear it.

I got confused. You are right, no gap. I was thinking about the gaps that are created when you switch the analog gain up or down while recording. I actually find that handy!
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Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers


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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #97 on: January 31, 2013, 03:14:29 PM »
never thought of the mono setting so that the track size wouldn't be an issue-I always have split files because I run 24/96. I guess odd channels would be left and even channels would be right..?

Each mono file contains half as much data as an equal length 2-channel stereo interleaved file, so you can record twice as long before the 2GB auto-split happens. That could be especially useful at 24/96 to avoid the split and make for easier file management.

When writing mono files, you'll get files on the SD card labled 1.wav, 2.wav, 3.wav. 4.wav, corresponding to the channel input number. Left or right simply depends on which mic you plug into which input.  You could plug the Left mic into either channel 1 or channel 2 and it will write to 1.wav or 2.wav.  You can assign or pan each channel in you editing software however you want.  In that way its not like writing 2channel-interleaved files where channels 1&3 are always left and 2&4 always right in the resulting 2-channel files.

With mono files, only situation in which the odd channel inputs are always routed left and even numbered channels to right is monitoring or playing back directly from the machine through the stereo-mixed RCA output, the digital output or the headphone jack.
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cashandkerouac

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #98 on: May 26, 2013, 11:05:54 AM »
does anyone use the Oade method for setting levels on their R-44?  when i first got my R-44 i followed the advice of others on this forum to leave the middle knob at 12 Noon and everything has worked out fine.  but Doug seems to have a different approach.   

"Edirol R44 and R4Pro: Basically you want to use as little preamp gain (this is how much the preamp amplifies or increases the signal from the microphone) as possible. So you start with the smaller, inner knob, it's the one closest to you, set at about 2:00 to 3:00, then adjust the outer knob, it moves in 6 dB steps and displays on the LCD readout, until your signal level is around -12dB on the meter. You then tweak the level with the inner knob, it's okay to have it set to max and that is better than moving it toward 12:00 and adding 6 dB of gain with the stepped input trim knob. I like to target between -12dB and -6dB for peak levels when I'm recording, that way when I'm surprised, it does not overload and distort. It's a good idea to use the limiter as you learn. The limiter is a circuit that can momentarily reduce your signal level so the sound does not distort as the digital recorder runs out of bits. A digital over sounds bad and should be avoided. The key is you get the lowest noise and distortion when the outer knob ( that works in 6dB steps) is set as low as possible while still providing a good signal level. Both the outer knob that adjust the input gain in 6dB steps and the inner knob that is continuously variable and allows you to fine tune the signal level are digitally controlled analog gain stages. I strongly suggest you not set the inner knob to 12:00 and add gain in post, this compromises the quality of your recordings. This simple rule, using as little preamp gain as possible, will allow you to make the very best recording possible with your gear."

Offline sbellon

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #99 on: May 26, 2013, 12:53:50 PM »
See reply #77 and following.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #100 on: May 26, 2013, 06:47:56 PM »
I realise the bizarre Oade advice (which is so wide of the mark that you wonder about the rest of their claims about the audio quality of their modifications) has been discussed to death before, but one sentence struck me as even more bizarre than the rest -

"The key is you get the lowest noise and distortion when the outer knob ( that works in 6dB steps) is set as low as possible while still providing a good signal level."

Taken one way, it's essentially meaningless - obviously you set the preamp gain to provide a "good signal level" and that's bound to be as low as possible - otherwise it would be too high - or, taken another way, it's claiming that preamp gain should be set low to minimise noise, whereas all preamps that I know of have their noise measured at max gain, where signal to noise ratio is most favourable.  As you add gain, yes, you add noise, but you add more signal than you add noise.

All in all, it smacks of ignorance of matters which someone tinkering with the innards of these devices should not be ignorant of.


Offline hi and lo

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #101 on: May 27, 2013, 10:41:32 AM »
does anyone use the Oade method for setting levels on their R-44?  when i first got my R-44 i followed the advice of others on this forum to leave the middle knob at 12 Noon and everything has worked out fine.  but Doug seems to have a different approach.   

"Edirol R44 and R4Pro: Basically you want to use as little preamp gain (this is how much the preamp amplifies or increases the signal from the microphone) as possible. So you start with the smaller, inner knob, it's the one closest to you, set at about 2:00 to 3:00, then adjust the outer knob, it moves in 6 dB steps and displays on the LCD readout, until your signal level is around -12dB on the meter. You then tweak the level with the inner knob, it's okay to have it set to max and that is better than moving it toward 12:00 and adding 6 dB of gain with the stepped input trim knob. I like to target between -12dB and -6dB for peak levels when I'm recording, that way when I'm surprised, it does not overload and distort. It's a good idea to use the limiter as you learn. The limiter is a circuit that can momentarily reduce your signal level so the sound does not distort as the digital recorder runs out of bits. A digital over sounds bad and should be avoided. The key is you get the lowest noise and distortion when the outer knob ( that works in 6dB steps) is set as low as possible while still providing a good signal level. Both the outer knob that adjust the input gain in 6dB steps and the inner knob that is continuously variable and allows you to fine tune the signal level are digitally controlled analog gain stages. I strongly suggest you not set the inner knob to 12:00 and add gain in post, this compromises the quality of your recordings. This simple rule, using as little preamp gain as possible, will allow you to make the very best recording possible with your gear."

Interesting, albeit a bit odd. Minus the first sentence, it's basically the long way of saying "you want your levels as close to 0 without going over." What's really interesting is the part about the inner gain know.

According to this post on Gearslutz, Doug claims there is a mistake in the R-44 block diagram and that the "inner" gain knob is not actually digital gain (after the A/D), but rather digitally controlled analog gain.

Quote
I thought it may be of interest to others that I spoke to Doug Oade at Oade Brothers Audio today. He does modifications to portable recorders, upgrading the mic pres and other things. Anyway, he told me that there is a great deal of false information about the Roland R-44 because of an incorrect block diagram in the owners manual. He said the level knobs are NOT after the A/D converter as in the diagram; they are completely in the analogue stage of the signal chain. He also said that you get a legitimate line input as in a high end mixer. He speaks very highly of this portable recorder, even saying that when you take off the top and look at the electronics it looks like a work of art compared to most other portable recorders. I thought some people may be interested to know this as there have been some posts on this forum about this subject.

If that's the truth, then I would agree that it is better to run the inner knob at max gain rather than the 12:00 position, but I wouldn't take this as gospel w/o additional verification.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #102 on: May 27, 2013, 08:59:21 PM »
Quote
According to this post on Gearslutz, Doug claims there is a mistake in the R-44 block diagram and that the "inner" gain knob is not actually digital gain (after the A/D), but rather digitally controlled analog gain.
  That's been totally disproved by every (other) owner of the device.  Sorry, but he doesn't know what he's talking about.  We've gone over and over this before.  But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how it works - what we do know is that using this inner control at other than the 12 o'clock setting is liable to mess up your recording.  Don't risk it.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 09:13:40 PM by Ozpeter »

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #103 on: May 27, 2013, 09:27:25 PM »
Relevant other discussions about use of the inner knob are at

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/418534-edirol-r44-sensitivity-vs-level.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/761420-roland-r-88-a.html

In the latter one I make the point that the R88 has a block diagram showing the same structure as on the R44 - and that I'd be surprised if they got it wrong twice.  I also point out that the inner knob can be locked to the noon position on the R88 and the knob used for another purpose - which implies that it's actually not much use.

Offline hi and lo

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #104 on: May 27, 2013, 10:08:56 PM »
Quote
According to this post on Gearslutz, Doug claims there is a mistake in the R-44 block diagram and that the "inner" gain knob is not actually digital gain (after the A/D), but rather digitally controlled analog gain.
  That's been totally disproved by every (other) owner of the device.  Sorry, but he doesn't know what he's talking about.  We've gone over and over this before.  But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how it works - what we do know is that using this inner control at other than the 12 o'clock setting is liable to mess up your recording.  Don't risk it.

You should email Doug then and correct him. I'm sure he'd appreciated that.

This isn't a guilty until proven innocent situation, but I don't see anything in those threads that even remotely qualifies as definitive proof. Can you point me to the post where the specific diagnostic tests were explained? Which poster opened up their unit to verify? I must have missed both. I'm not backing up Doug's claims, but all I see in those threads are general speculation by end-users quoting the manual.

 

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