Topic: New guy...

[hcooper]

Hey guys, I joined a while back but life took over and I never got a chance to properly invest any effort into the site. Well; I'm back now and eager to learn!

I was hoping that some of you might be able to help me sort out my questions regarding a basic beginners taping rig -

I have - so far - a Zoom H4n. I was thinking about buying some AT583s to go with it (I would mainly be using this for stealth recording) - I don't know if this is a good idea?!

My next question is where I get most confused and it is concerning the difference between the pre-amp and battery box and what I would need. I read somewhere about one of them being better for loud shows and vice-versa. If perhaps someone could give me a hand in this regard.

Thanks all!

Henry

[bombdiggity]

There is another new to taping/this board thread active here with a lot of good discussion.  Look at that since that is essentially the same thing but already filled in.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=169526

The AT853's are fine if they have the mod done so they won't distort at loud shows.  They seem to come up in the Yard Sale regularly (like now in fact). 

Decent mics are typically going to give you much better results than built-ins on a recorder. 

As to pre-amp and battery box (which may not be specifically covered in that other thread): 

Mics need power (a few have batteries in them but most do not, especially tiny ones). 

A battery box just provides "plug-in power" for tiny mics (the AT853, Church Audio, Sound Professionals, etc.).  Most small recorders can provide plug in power themselves through the mic input (usually that function needs to be switched on to work that way).  Using a battery box (or a pre-amp) will allow you to record considerably louder shows than a recorder's internally supplied plug in power before the mic may distort from the sound being too loud.  If you record loud shows you generally need at least a battery box.  A battery box only provides power and may or may not result in a loud enough signal coming through to use the line-in input on the recorder as opposed to mic-in (make sure you turn the plug in power from the recorder OFF if you use a battery box or pre-amp and the mic-in input). 

A pre-amp actually amplifies the signal from the mics as well as providing power to the mics.  Most pre-amps provide phantom power (P-48) which is at a much higher level needed to power large full sized mics and not useful for tiny  mics.  Some pre-amps provide plug in level power for small mics or are switchable to provide either plug in or P-48 power.  Pre-amps usually provide a little bit of their own flavor to the sound of the mics (since it isn't a direct pass-through there is often a bit of a sonic character imparted from the pre-amp).  A pre-amp will allow you to go line-in on the recorder instead of mic-in (so you get less of the flavor of the amplifier that is built into the recorder and more of that of the pre-amp).  Pre-amps are generally more expensive.  You may or may not need one depending on what you record, your taste, and what mics you have. 

If you record loud shows with external mics you will likely need either a battery box or a pre-amp.  Even if you don't need one just to handle the volume either is likely to improve the performance of the mics relative to running them from recorder supplied plug-in power. 

[Marshall7]

Excellent choice on the AT853's

[acidjack]

853s are great. I'd also consider the Naiant X-R "low sensitivity" version. Cheaper new than used 853s often are. www.naiant.com

[hcooper]

Thank you for the replies! I didn't see the other thread; sorry about starting a nearly identical one  I'm going to take your advice and go for the AT853s with the mod - would it be cardioids?

Sorry if this is a silly question, but what is the difference between recording through line-in and mic-in.

Henry

[bombdiggity]

IMO cards are more useful at any distance though some like the omni sound.  I think omnis are much less forgiving. 

Line-in / mic-in may depend somewhat on the recorder.  It's a matter of which amplifier/s you are using and how good they are.  The quality of the pre-amp has a substantial impact on the recorded sound (noise level, clarity, tone, etc.). 

Mic-in means you are relying on the recorder's built-in pre-amp to do the work of raising the incoming signal to a solid recordable level.  As with built-in mics the quality can vary a lot depending on the recorder.  Line-in means the incoming signal is already at a higher level so you're not using the built-in pre-amp (or at least not to any great extent).  There's a lot of debate over how much of the internal circuitry you actually avoid with line-in on a consumer recorder and that varies by recorder as well (though the consensus being you don't really avoid all of the internal circuitry but do at least minimize its impact going line-in).  If your external pre-amp is a higher quality one than the built in you should get a better quality result with it going line in, like if your external mics are better than the built in ones.  You can find specifications (signal-to-noise, max SPL, etc.) on many recorders and those are nearly always more favorable going line-in as opposed to mic-in. 

I'm not sure what the opinion/experience/specifications are for the H4N.  I don't think the Zooms are known for having really great pre-amps in them though. 

[hcooper]

Thanks for the reply Bombdiggity, I really appreciate it.

So - if I were to get a battery box only and no pre-amp and then record throughline in with my new AT583s with their mod, would I be on the right road?!

Henry

[bombdiggity]

^ Well the battery box may or may not provide a hot enough signal to go line-in.  It may depend on how loud the show is. 

You could do modded AT853's with battery box to mic-in and come out with something solid.  If a given show works using that same chain to line-in so much the better.  You probably won't know until you try it but once you do you'll know if there's any chance the battery box can feed you a line level at the shows you typically go to. 

My SP's with their SP battery box had to go mic-in (to an R-05).  I don't go to loud shows though.  I was fine with that for a bit then bought a Tinybox pre-amp since I wanted something that could phantom power my best mics but also plug in power the SP's and give me a better pre-amp/more control than the built-in.  I'm a lot happier with that but a Tinybox may be in your upgrade path rather than starting point (they're not inexpensive relative to what I surmise your intended budget is, though a Tinybox is well worth it). 

[adrianf74]

^ Well the battery box may or may not provide a hot enough signal to go line-in.  It may depend on how loud the show is. 

You could do modded AT853's with battery box to mic-in and come out with something solid.  If a given show works using that same chain to line-in so much the better.  You probably won't know until you try it but once you do you'll know if there's any chance the battery box can feed you a line level at the shows you typically go to. 

My SP's with their SP battery box had to go mic-in (to an R-05).  I don't go to loud shows though.  I was fine with that for a bit then bought a Tinybox pre-amp since I wanted something that could phantom power my best mics but also plug in power the SP's and give me a better pre-amp/more control than the built-in.  I'm a lot happier with that but a Tinybox may be in your upgrade path rather than starting point (they're not inexpensive relative to what I surmise your intended budget is, though a Tinybox is well worth it).

I'll fiftieth the AT853's for your use.  I've run them and they're probably the most versatile small mics out there in that (if you can find them) you can use up to 4 different caps on them.  I always REALLY LIKED the subcards but they were discontinued years ago and are extremely difficult to find.

As far as running mic in vs. line in, a lot of this depends on the pres of the deck in question.  I've used an M10 with a battery box and mic in (on more than one occasion) without any noticeable increase in noise.  I know the ZOOM decks aren't as quiet so I think Bombdigity's right on you getting some sort of preamp.

Depending on what termination your mics are going to be, a TinyBox might be a bit of overkill and you might be better suited by Jon's newest product, the PIPSqueak.  There's a thread over in the retail space about this device but it's essentially a "TinyBox" dedicated to 1/8" terminated mics (that is, you can't use it to power AKG, Schoeps, etc. down the line should you choose to upgrade) that's smaller than the TinyBox (which is pretty Tiny).  Even if you if did choose to upgrade mics later on, you'd likely need to send it back to Jon for a reconfiguration because there's no way to wire it as an active power source without knowing what route you going.

The PIPSqueak is supposed to be identical noise-wise to the TinyBox (which is extremely quiet).  If I were running 1/8" terminated mics (which I no longer do), I'd likely get a PIPSqueak.  Another nice thing about it is that it has a built-in rechargeable battery so you don't need to fuss with 9V's. 

[hcooper]

Thanks again guys - I'm in discussion about ordering the modded AT853s, so hopefully that should be all done soon 

Hmm, I think maybe starting with a preamp maybe the way to go then. Perhaps going to Jon is the way to go?

Henry

[stevetoney]

Welcome to the group Henry.  I didn't start directly with AT853, but I consider them my first real pair of mics.  I used them for a long time before I got the upgrade itch.  Then I kept a pair until only about a year ago because they still served a purpose for undercover work, so I also agree with the others...very good choice to start out with.  If you can afford it, I'd go ahead and spring for a preamp now, that way you'll be set up for whatever you want to throw at your recording rig.

[bombdiggity]

Jon's stuff is great.  Hand built and he's got a big backlog (due to the quality/value) so it'll take a while to arrive once you order.  Either a Pipsqueak or a Tinybox would be good choices.  If your budget is limited and you think you'll stay with tiny mics a Pipsqueak may be best for you.  I'd imagine it could be resold here in the future if you eventually go bigger and need something with phantom power. 

[fmaderjr]

I'll fiftieth the AT853's for your use.  I've run them and they're probably the most versatile small mics out there in that (if you can find them) you can use up to 4 different caps on them.  I always REALLY LIKED the subcards but they were discontinued years ago and are extremely difficult to find.

I second that-love AT 853's. You can actually use 5 different caps on them: cards, omnis. hypercards, subcards, and (if you have the 933 to 853 adapter), the mini-shotguns. I also especially love the subcards. 

[hcooper]

Ordered some 853s now, just got the card caps with them, need to learn about when I should and shouldnt use all the caps!

Henry

[stevetoney]

Ordered some 853s now, just got the card caps with them, need to learn about when I should and shouldnt use all the caps!

Henry

Here are some general guidelines:

Cardioids - general purpose directional mics, usually the first pattern people get.  Usually the best choice when you're recording a show from a prime location out a ways into the audience.

Hypers-Cardioids - For use in the back of the room or in rooms that have alot of echo/reverb.  Don't use hypers when there's alot of chatter behind you because there's a rear facing lobe in the pickup pattern.

Sub-Cardioids - For use up-close near the stage or at the front of the stage, aka stage lip.

Omni - For use on-stage or in perfect sounding room with a well-behaved audience where you want to pick up all of the ambient sounds.