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Offline voltronic

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Audio Snake Oil
« on: August 01, 2015, 09:04:28 PM »
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/07/gallery-we-tear-apart-a-340-audiophile-ethernet-cable-and-look-inside/

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/07/340-audiophile-ethernet-cable-gets-a-marginal-pass-on-the-test-bench/

My favorite quote from the manufacturer:
Quote
DIRECTIONALITY: All audio cables are directional. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. Arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For best results have the arrow pointing in the direction of the flow of music. For example, NAS to Router, Router to Network Player.

 :facepalm:
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 10:26:30 AM by voltronic »
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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2015, 08:09:00 AM »
So, you say that if my vanity was driving me to spend $350 on an Ethernet cable for my digital audio gear, I could instead purchase a high quality cable for about $15 - $20 and donate the remaining $330 to Special Olympics or American Cancer Society?
I'd ultimately be a better person, and music will sound better because when you feel better about yourself, everything becomes more enjoyable.

It makes perfect sense to me.
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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2015, 03:39:18 PM »
If you paid $350 for an ethernet cable for your high end rig, then your family should be allowed, by law, to give you a beat down.   :P

Offline voltronic

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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 04:22:56 PM »
If you paid $350 for an ethernet cable for your high end rig, then your family should be allowed, by law, to give you a beat down.   :P

... Preferably using said cable.  Or you up the ante and use the pure-silver-conductor Diamond version which starts at ~$700 for 0.75m.
http://www.audioquest.com/ethernet/diamond
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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 04:49:21 PM »
It could be worse than an expensive cable.  I challenge you to make it all the way through this without screaming:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticsystem/resonators.html
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- Gustav Mahler

Offline voltronic

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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2015, 10:26:30 PM »
Yes I understand that principle, but you're talking about resonances that those instruments are capable of actually producing and / or influencing in your room.  For high frequencies, I could see this product having some kind of effect.  But the article would have us believe it can also violate the laws of physics.  Did you read the part that claimed those tiny resonators somehow were able to absorb / cancel the subwoofers' output?  There's no way those things with relatively very high resonant frequency can influence such comparatively huge wavelengths and low frequencies in any significant way.  The simple explanation for what was heard in that part of the rest is that someone swapped the polarity on one speaker.  Or the little cups are magical.
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- Gustav Mahler

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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2015, 10:36:56 PM »
Yes I understand that principle, but you're talking about resonances that those instruments are capable of actually producing and / or influencing in your room.  For high frequencies, I could see this product having some kind of effect.  But the article would have us believe it can also violate the laws of physics.  Did you read the part that claimed those tiny resonators somehow were able to absorb / cancel the subwoofers' output?  There's no way those things with relatively very high resonant frequency can influence such comparatively huge wavelengths and low frequencies in any significant way.  The simple explanation for what was heard in that part of the rest is that someone swapped the polarity on one speaker.  Or the little cups are magical.

I love the resonator in the car...  Like its going to make a difference when your car produces a ton of road-noise!  I think my pine tree smelly thing does an equally good of a job making the music sound better!  LOL!

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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2015, 09:49:00 AM »
Placing a properly tuned resonant system in a room can counteract a resonant acoustic energy mode, making the room response flatter and more accurate.  That's how Helmholtz cavity resonators and resonant panel bass traps function.  But those kinds of devices are built to work at specific frequency ranges with rather narrow bandwidths and only work properly when tailored to suit the specific resonant problem.   Measurements are required and well understood acoustic engineering principles apply.  Of course no one is even attempting to measure those silly little magic cups or use them in any kind of reputable way, although they could be measured to determine their actual acoustic behavior. Like voltronic notes, those tiny cups will be physically incapable of having any affect below a very high frequency range due to the length of the wavelengths involved.

There are two small helmholtz chamber resonators molded into the plastic intake system of my Mazda which aren't that much larger than that little trophy-cup thing pictured on the dash.  Of course they are accurately sized and placed in the intake to counter buzzy acoustic intake resonances (or alternately, the Mazda design engineers may have placed them there to enhance certain cool-sounding 'vroom-vroom' resonances).

Terry, those pine-tree air fresheners make the RepoMan soundtrack sound incredible!
Just ask Miller- "There's one in every car, you'll see"
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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2015, 10:00:41 AM »
How 'bout some magic pebbles to go with yer fancy ethernet cables and resonators? (No affiliation!) > http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

If you like those, there's also a bridge I can sell you. ;)

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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2015, 10:08:21 AM »
If you like those, there's also a bridge I can sell you. ;)

Tacoma narrows?  That was an unfortunately well-tuned sympathetic resonant system.. obviously suffering from the lack of a few well-tweaked tiny metal cups and pine-tree air-fresheners.
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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2015, 10:31:38 AM »
I'm more of a believer in fancy cabling than most in this forum, but even I draw the line at a $350 ethernet cable. As long as the connectors are secure and the cable is rated highly enough to do the job, it's good with me.

If you really want a hoot, check out the Synergistic Research website. How that company remains profitable is a direct testament to the immense purchasing power of gullible audiophiles who seek solutions for problems that do not exist.
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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2015, 08:30:52 AM »
Shun Mook


This is "messy" by design, ^^.  All of the paper, and boxes, everything, are all forms of room tunings.



These is not enough money in the world that would have me put my turntables in front of the speakers. But, they've got some gigantically intense gear; so who am I to question.

A lot of followers use bird nesting boxes, instead of fiddles.


And round mpingo (ebony) discs are really popular; the essence of Shun Mook.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=shun+mook&go=Submit&qs=n&form=QBILPG&pq=shun+mook&sc=8-9&sp=-1&sk=
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 08:48:37 AM by m0k3 »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2015, 08:59:14 AM »
There are actual resonant acoustic principles at play.  But as usual, without really understanding how those principles function and applying them correctly (which requires accurate measurement beforehand to design them correctly, and confirmation measurements afterwards), its mostly a bunch of woo woo.  Here's some helmholtz resonators, and the following post will show some panel resonators..







« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 04:58:10 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2015, 08:59:48 AM »
Counter-example of a truly useful, well-engineered, understood, intelligently applied "resonant panel audio enhancement device"-

« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 04:58:48 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2015, 09:01:40 AM »
:o

I thought Shun Mook just made the little magic discs; I had no idea the craziness went this far.

Check out this quote from their website:
Quote
A simple test by yourself or your clients is to hold the disc with the Chinese logo up or down in one’s palm and feel the weight. Flip the disc over and weigh it the other way, you will feel the logo side down is heavier then the other way.  Why?
This is crazy, nothing is added, same disc.  There is an energy flowing through the disc to your palm that is enhanced within the ebony.  The energy from your palm is the aura of your body that is reacting to the disc energy.

For a male human the aura flows out of your left hand and flow towards your right hand, while for a female its the other way around.  The disc is not as simple as it looks and there is a complex process involved in the making of it.

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- Gustav Mahler

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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2015, 09:09:20 AM »
8< redundant image

Is that one of those infamous miles of wire reverb/delay units?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 09:26:43 AM by m0k3 »
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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2015, 09:20:43 AM »
8< redundant images



Presently on top of my mono corner speaker:
A tuning fork mounted in a resonation box, with the mouth of the box pointed to the listener. An african thumb harp (don't know the name; plinky metal sounding, played with thumbs), a sweet potato flute, a pair of maracas. I even had a tenor banjo out for a while.
It didn't make it sound any better.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 09:28:33 AM by m0k3 »
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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2015, 09:49:37 AM »
Good, perhaps unintentional, banjo joke there.

Is that one of those infamous miles of wire reverb/delay units?

That's a plate-reverb unit.  Basically a sound-proof box containing a big rectangular gong with a speaker coil and a couple contact mics attached to it.  Posted as another example of an intentionally-resonant system engineered for musical applications.

The EMT plate reverb is roughly analogous to the soundboards of Shun Mooks fiddles.
The coke bottle hemholtz-resonator is roughly analogous to the air mass volume within of the fiddle bodies and f-holes .
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 09:53:01 AM by Gutbucket »
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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2015, 09:57:24 AM »
That image with the ghastly equation,....
that thing reminds me of the African Udu drum.
Its a clay pot, that looks just like the vessel in the diagram. On some of them, on one side, they left an opening that is covered with a leather skin drum head.  It is just a wet luscious low blorpy sound.
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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2015, 10:24:08 AM »
An african thumb harp (don't know the name; plinky metal sounding, played with thumbs)

That would be a kalimbaEarth, Wind & Fire made excellent use of it.

BTW, I'm renaming this thread to what it's now become - mods please move it to wherever would be most appropriate.
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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2015, 10:28:11 AM »
sorry for the 'jackin.
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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2015, 10:58:08 AM »

Check out this quote from their website:
Quote
  The disc is not as simple as it looks and there is a complex process involved in the making of it.

I bet the secret ingredient is finely ground and dried bullshit...

Terry
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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2015, 11:00:00 AM »
sorry for the 'jackin.

No, I think I threadjacked myself with those resonator cups.  Plus, this is more fun than just talking about crazy overpriced cables, which is too easy. ;D
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I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2015, 12:37:24 PM »
Yeah, this is funner. 
I'm not a fan of the eat the rich threads.  To some people, $350 is what they made while making coffee in the morning, before beginning their productive day.  I've worked for those types, presented bills for my work to those types, and was given my bill back, suggesting to make it bigger. Money is no object to some folk. If it makes them happy, then so be it.

but, yeah,... they also make themselves a bit of a target.
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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2015, 12:41:17 PM »
Yeah, this is funner. 
I'm not a fan of the eat the rich threads.  To some people, $350 is what they made while making coffee in the morning, before beginning their productive day.  I've worked for those types, presented bills for my work to those types, and was given my bill back, suggesting to make it bigger. Money is no object to some folk. If it makes them happy, then so be it.

but, yeah,... they also make themselves a bit of a target.

Yeah, I suppose if you're one of those dude that walks around with half-a-mil in their suitcase (see Snoop Dogg), getting something like this ain't nothing but a G thang...

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2015, 01:22:54 PM »
I have hit the mother lode:

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=24446&start=615

And from that thread, a brilliant parody by Rane Audio: http://www.rane.com/pi14.html
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 01:24:43 PM by voltronic »
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I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2015, 01:41:34 PM »
I have hit the mother lode:

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=24446&start=615

And from that thread, a brilliant parody by Rane Audio: http://www.rane.com/pi14.html

Hilarious...

Quote
Yes. It helps remove static from your credit card
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2015, 02:27:36 PM »
Im thinking about marketing my soapstone bulk tape eraser; I call it a soapstone record player plinth.


whats that you ask?
i dropped a neodymium magnet on this plinth when I was building it. It rolled off, and "fell", sort of. Well, it actually stuck to the stone.
So, maybe as effective, or more effective than the credit card stabilizer, record denoisificator?
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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2015, 04:13:20 PM »
can someone recommend some non-snake oil quality XLR cables?

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2015, 04:23:16 PM »
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- Gustav Mahler

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2015, 04:50:16 PM »
Posted the EMT plate as a counter-example of a truly useful, well-engineered, understood, intelligently applied "resonant audio enhancement device".  I probably should have noted that more clearly though.  I was going to include a photo of a tuned diaphragm absorber or helmholtz acoustic bass trap in the same post, as installed in a studio control room, as another counter-example of these principles, intelligently and measurably applied), but they don't look like much more than a flat panel or a slot in the wall.
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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2015, 06:00:12 PM »
can someone recommend some non-snake oil quality XLR cables?

Moon Audio. http://www.moon-audio.com/. Expensive but definitely the best interconnects that I have ever heard.
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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2015, 06:04:53 PM »
I said NOT ($500) snake oil cables.

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2015, 06:14:30 PM »
Canare L4E6S starquad cable stock, Neutrik ends, and a hot soldering iron.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2015, 06:39:56 PM »
For things our cable makers here don't do, I have had great results with these guys:

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/
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Offline jlykos

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2015, 05:57:21 PM »
I said NOT ($500) snake oil cables.

Just because something is expensive does not make it snake oil. You said snake oil. You did not say anything about price. Some home stereo systems can resolve details between different types of cables and it doesn't take a stereo that costs a fortune to be able to do so.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2015, 10:26:35 PM »
$22,000 for a 2-meter pair of speaker cables or interconnects.  The idiots buying these could be donating to cancer research or helping to bring a clean water supply to a third-world country. 

Instead, they have beautiful upholstery around some copper wires.  :banging head:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue75/sc_beethoven.htm
http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/skogrand/1.html
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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2015, 11:35:55 PM »
$22,000 for a 2-meter pair of speaker cables or interconnects.  The idiots buying these could be donating to cancer research or helping to bring a clean water supply to a third-world country. 

Instead, they have beautiful upholstery around some copper wires.  :banging head:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue75/sc_beethoven.htm
http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/skogrand/1.html

The review sample as requested arrived with fitted spades; these spades are custom ordered by Knut and further customized in house to fit the SC Beethoven's cable build and wire framework.


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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2015, 08:45:40 PM »
can someone recommend some non-snake oil quality XLR cables?

Moon Audio. http://www.moon-audio.com/. Expensive but definitely the best interconnects that I have ever heard.

$75 USB Cables   lulz!       :yack:

Digital is not affected by cable except if not delivering the bits on time.
All else is hooey.   
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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2015, 08:47:17 AM »
And what do you do if the bits are not being delivered on time?
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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2015, 08:53:21 AM »
http://www.moon-audio.com/silver-dragon-lightning-cable-for-apple-idevices-1-5-meter.html

$205 lightning cable for your Apple devices.

The absurdity, it boggles the mind:

The Silver Dragon USB is the most resolute USB cable on the market today so stop paying for over inflated cables and give it a try. Be prepared to be amazed at the clear sound improvement it will make when transferring your digital audio from your Apple™ iDevice.

ETA: All of you people here on ts have been telling me for years that mics, preamp and recorder were the most important pieces of the gear chain. Now I know that all I need is a quality USB cable for transfer. Thanks a lot guys.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 08:57:42 AM by hoppedup »
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Offline Moke

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2015, 10:18:34 AM »
I use whatever came with the gear (if supplied) at a total cost of nothing. If the gear didn't come with a cable, then I use one that came with something else.
I've only ever purchased one USB cable, for an instance where the two ends of the cable were different. Thats kind of aggravating.

And what do you do if the bits are not being delivered on time?

The required physical and electrical characteristics for proper transmission are fully specified in the USB standard.  Either a cable meets that or it doesn't:

http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb20_docs/

See chapters 6 and 7 of usb_20.pdf.

Possible problems are improper characteristic impedance on the signal pair, excess resistance on the power & ground wires causing excess voltage drop, length greater than allowed under the standard (possibly causing timing among other problems), excess capacitance causing greater than allowable loss, and improper shielding.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 10:21:23 AM by m0k3 »
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2015, 11:03:58 AM »
I don't know.

I took a chance on the $300 USB cable, and decided to hook it up to my keyboard.

I'm noticing that my adjectives and nouns agree in a slightly more precise way. My metaphors are more profound. My spelling is vastly improved. The black of the letters is blacker. It just seems like my writing flows better.

You can say that digital is all the same. But my brain tell me that this cable can make any word processor better!!!
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Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2015, 11:39:38 AM »
And what do you do if the bits are not being delivered on time?

Buffer and re-clock the data in the following device.
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2015, 11:39:43 AM »
I'm still pissed I let Nutter talk me into 300 dollar Audio magic cables in 2000. Just bullshit for what we do. Mics and pre and a recorder with a nice ad stage.
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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2015, 01:49:09 PM »
I'm still pissed I let Nutter talk me into 300 dollar Audio magic cables in 2000. Just bullshit for what we do. Mics and pre and a recorder with a nice ad stage.
That's funny. I used to have extensive conversations with him (one of my best friends who used to be a taper lived close to him in Denver), met him at Red Rocks 1996 when we each discovered our mutual love and respect for Meyer Sound Labs equipment and John Meyer (Helen too!). He tried to sell me these cables a few times, each time we would talk specifics about cables and cabling. He knew I used to co-own a small manufacturing company in Ft. Worth which dealt with high quality cabling used in oil & gas exploration with hydrophone systems. All in all, I am aware that many in this community has problems with his services, but I always thought him to have serious technical understanding of the audio world. Sure, he was making money off of it, but certainly didn't become a millionaire or anything on audio products. I found him/them to be a good source for recording gear. (now I sound like a professional suck up!)  :o
As if this thread hasn't gone in more directions, now I add this!  8)
More OT- that product voltronic linked to the thread is quite hilarious (and written in German):
http://www.creaktiv-hifi.com/index.php/en/twisterstop-optimizer/hybrid-lp-optimizer-granite.html
I second the use of Canare starquad cable (although it requires better than average soldering techniques)
music IS love

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Offline hi and lo

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2015, 02:04:27 PM »
I highly recommend reading Douglas Self's Science and Subjectivism in Audio. It's published and freely available on his website, HERE, although I strongly recommend picking up a copy of his book audio power amplifier design if you're interested in this stuff. This is essentially the entire first chapter.

The most important section, in my option, is "The Subjectivists Position"

Quote

2: THE SUBJECTIVIST POSITION.
A short definition of the Subjectivist position on power amplifiers might read as follows:

  • Objective measurements of an amplifier's performance are unimportant compared with the subjective impressions received in informal listening tests. Should the two contradict the objective results may be dismissed out of hand.
  • Degradation effects exist in amplifiers that are unknown to engineering science, and are not revealed by the usual measurements.
  • Considerable latitude may be used in suggesting hypothetical mechanisms of audio impairment, such as mysterious capacitor shortcomings and subtle cable defects, without reference to the plausibility of the concept, or gathering any evidence to support it.

I believe this is a reasonable statement of the situation. Meanwhile the overwhelming majority of the public buy conventional hifi systems, ignoring the expensive and esoteric high-end sector where the debate is fiercest.
It may appear unique that a sizable part of a technical industry has set off in a direction that is quite counter to the facts; it might be felt that such a loss of direction in a scientific subject would be unprecedented. This is not so.

Parallel events that suggest themselves include the destruction of the study of genetics under Lysenko in the USSR. [1] Another possibility is the study of parapsychology, now in deep trouble because after some 100 years of investigation it has not uncovered the ghost of a repeatable phenomenon. [2] This sounds all too familiar. It could be argued that parapsychology is a poor analogy because most people would accept that there was nothing there to study in the first place, whereas nobody would assert that objective measurements and subjective sound quality have no correlation at all; one need only pick up the telephone to remind oneself what a 4kHz bandwidth and 10% or so THD sounds like.

A startlingly close parallel in the history of science is the almost-forgotten affair of Blondlot and the N- rays. [3] In 1903, Rene Blondlot, a respected French physicist, claimed to have discovered a new form of radiation he called "N- rays". This was shortly after the discovery of X-rays by Roentgen, so rays were in the air, as it were, and so was a desire to keep up with the Germans. The N-radiation was apparently mysteriously refracted by aluminium prisms; but the crucial factor was that its presence could only be shown by subjective assessment of the brightness of an electric arc allegedly affected by N-rays. No objective measurement appeared to be possible. To Blondlot, and at least fourteen of his professional colleagues, the subtle changes in brightness were real, and the French Academy published more than a hundred papers on the subject.

Unfortunately N-rays were completely imaginary, a classic product of the "experimenter-expectancy" effect. This was demonstrated by American scientist Robert Wood, who quietly pocketed the aluminium prism during a demonstration, without affecting Bondlot's recital of the results. This was widely reported by the famous reporter/explorer William Seabrook, and the N-ray industry collapsed very quickly. It was a major embarrassment at the time, but is now almost forgotten. For more on N-rays, see the new N-ray page

This demonstrates with brutal clarity that it is quite possible for large numbers of sincere people to deceive themselves when trying to perform subjective assessments of phenomena.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 02:06:53 PM by hi and lo »

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2015, 01:14:49 PM »
I'm still pissed I let Nutter talk me into 300 dollar Audio magic cables in 2000. Just bullshit for what we do. Mics and pre and a recorder with a nice ad stage.
That's funny. I used to have extensive conversations with him (one of my best friends who used to be a taper lived close to him in Denver), met him at Red Rocks 1996 when we each discovered our mutual love and respect for Meyer Sound Labs equipment and John Meyer (Helen too!). He tried to sell me these cables a few times, each time we would talk specifics about cables and cabling. He knew I used to co-own a small manufacturing company in Ft. Worth which dealt with high quality cabling used in oil & gas exploration with hydrophone systems. All in all, I am aware that many in this community has problems with his services, but I always thought him to have serious technical understanding of the audio world. Sure, he was making money off of it, but certainly didn't become a millionaire or anything on audio products. I found him/them to be a good source for recording gear. (now I sound like a professional suck up!)  :o
As if this thread hasn't gone in more directions, now I add this!  8)
More OT- that product voltronic linked to the thread is quite hilarious (and written in German):
http://www.creaktiv-hifi.com/index.php/en/twisterstop-optimizer/hybrid-lp-optimizer-granite.html
I second the use of Canare starquad cable (although it requires better than average soldering techniques)

No disrespect to Marc, differences aside...very knowledgeable guy and I got a lot from our conversations.
Mk4v/41v>Nbob kcy x2>nbox platinum/Naiant PFA/Naiant IPA>Oade warm mod Marantz 661 x2/Sony pcm m10x3

Offline 108Ω

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2015, 02:12:03 PM »
Answering the the USB question about clocking on a USB bus...

NRZ rules apply to USB 1.0/2.0 which is half-duplex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-return-to-zero

8b/10b Rules added for USB 3.0, which is full-duplex

What he said on buffer, error-correct, and re-assemble, but the bigger issues arise when buffers overrun and the data stream doesn't resend...

In a nutshell, use quality, not exotic, cable and don't exceed length for the earliest USB version of the endpoints.
Exotic cables for digital, probably most analog applications, too, is like painting your cat with cheetah spots.
It ain't gonna be bigger, tougher, or faster than the cat is was born to be.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2015, 11:12:27 PM »
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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2015, 01:50:56 PM »
Akiko Audio "Tuning Sticks"

From the same site: WA-Quantum Chips
Silliest marketing speak I've read in a while! :facepalm:
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2015, 06:52:38 PM »
Well their RCA cables are only 800 euro a pair. You can be sure they will give you an " open and spacious sound while getting you emotionally involved in the presentation "
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2015, 07:38:35 PM »
Well their RCA cables are only 800 euro a pair. You can be sure they will give you an " open and spacious sound while getting you emotionally involved in the presentation "

The "open and spacious sound" of course being the wind whistling through the empty cavity between the ears of the person who bought them.
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2015, 12:32:34 AM »
Much of this pseudoscience exists in our own end of the field.

16/44.1 is more than enough for playback (while recording at 24bit for headroom makes sense, of course).

And yet, folks here swear they can hear an improvement at 24/96 on playback.

Isn't isn't any more logical or supported by experiments using the scientific method.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v, mk4v, mk22, mk3 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline capnhook

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2015, 03:34:21 PM »
Much of this pseudoscience exists in our own end of the field.

16/44.1 is more than enough for playback (while recording at 24bit for headroom makes sense, of course).

And yet, folks here swear they can hear an improvement at 24/96 on playback.

Isn't isn't any more logical or supported by experiments using the scientific method.

Welcome to the reality-based community, noahbickart.
 
I'm unaware of any ABX  comps that prove that any difference can be herd...

I'm looking for proof.
Proud member of the reality-based community

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Offline Jonmac

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2016, 12:54:04 PM »
There's no point buying all these expensive interconnect cables if you don't have decent speaker cables.

http://www.russandrews.com/select-ks6068-speaker-cable-with-wbt0610ag-bananas-33739993131/

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Offline Jonmac

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2016, 12:58:48 PM »

And of course, you need decent fuses in your plugs.

http://www.russandrews.com/ra-5a-superfuse-pack-of-5/

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Offline voltronic

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2016, 01:46:29 PM »

And of course, you need decent fuses in your plugs.

http://www.russandrews.com/ra-5a-superfuse-pack-of-5/
Over $100 per fuse!!!!!!! >:(  But hey, you get a free Caig wipe. :P
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I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline voltronic

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DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q
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Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

Offline lsd2525

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Mics: ADK A51s; AT4041; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
Recorders: M10; DR-60D; DR-70D

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2016, 03:58:37 PM »
Devo never sounded so fantabulous and true.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

Offline dactylus

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2016, 11:30:02 AM »

^^^
Wow!!
hot licks > microphones > recorder



...ball of confusion, that's what the world is today, hey hey...

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2016, 05:57:08 AM »
OK, people.  I think we have now reached the absolute zenith of stupidity and BS:

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/04/kemp-elektroniks-maxiimus-p16-review_3.html
http://www.kempelektroniks.nl/en/918/kemp-elektroniks/products/shunt-conditioners/fostac-maxiimus-p16

That might be the BIGGEST waste of money Ive EVER seen :P They don't even explain WTF it even does!!! They just say it works with the internal resonances of the earth and its radiation field or something like that, but never say what it does for the audio! What a waste of $$!!!
Schoeps MK4's | MK41's ->
Schoeps | NBob 250/05 KCY's ->
Schoeps VMS 02IB | Naiant +60v/Low Noise PFA's ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby | GakCable XLR's ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 | Tascam DR-70D ->
128gb | 64gb SanDisk Extreme Pro SDXC-I

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean | http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420 | http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php

Offline SacredMetal

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Re: $350 ethernet cable - teardown and bench test
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2016, 12:15:58 PM »
How 'bout some magic pebbles to go with yer fancy ethernet cables and resonators? (No affiliation!) > http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

If you like those, there's also a bridge I can sell you. ;)

The scary thing is I can tell you what stones those are in the bag on the right... Actually heading to a gem show right now, I can pick up my own version of "The Pebbles" (leaving out the Bam-Bam)
Zoom X/Y, Zoom M/S, Rode NT-1's, Rode NTK, Cascade Fathead
Zoom H6
Mogami Silver cables
5V USB 10,400mAh Backup battery
(it may not be the greatest but its a good start...)

Offline Ben Turnbull

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Re: Audio Snake Oil
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2016, 11:17:09 PM »
Meh... it's only about 1700 Euros... I've seen cables selling for 10 times that much. ::)
Who came first, Dave King or Zack Galifianakis?...
-My name is Ben, and I'm an AQhaulic ranting hysterically in my dotage
Official Archivist for Jazz Central Studios, MinniMN
DPA4021/SKM140/NakCM1k/ADK A51s/Countryman B3/ATes943/SPc4/och... > TinyBox OT> PCM-M10/DR-680/R4/T+mod UA5 needs attention

 

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