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Offline weroflu

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DSD
« on: April 17, 2017, 01:13:18 PM »
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 01:15:52 PM by weroflu »

Offline 108Ω

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Re: DSD
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2017, 05:58:52 AM »
Well, I'm proud to be an Okie, from Muskogee
We don't get our bits from DSD

 ;D
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DSD
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2017, 09:29:08 AM »
Up against the wall, redbook lover
Mother who raised PCM so well
He's thirty four and drinkin' in a honky tonk
Kickin' hippies' asses and raisin' hell

 ;)
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: DSD
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2017, 12:52:03 PM »
There is a well read thread here about the DSD. I get it from an engineering viewpoint and mainly understand the algorithms behind it, however, the overall performance compared to cost doesn't cause me to want to buy or run DSD.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165831.0;all
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174903.msg2161860#msg2161860

That said, those KORG DSD recorders sure are pretty!
http://www.ayre.com/insights_dsdvspcm.htm
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DSD
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2017, 01:59:45 PM »
I'm more than happy with 16/44.1 done well, record at 24/48 myself, and find significantly more value in additional channels rather than extended bandwidth.  But to each his own, as long as the discussions remain as fact-based, truthful, and honest as possible.

The rhodinium-plated, cyrogenically-treated, DC-biased, analog singage along the dessolate desert highway reads: 18 miles to Muskogee
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: DSD
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2017, 02:20:22 PM »
I'm more than happy with 16/44.1 done well, record at 24/48 myself, and find significantly more value in additional channels rather than extended bandwidth.  But to each his own, as long as the discussions remain as fact-based, truthful, and honest as possible.

The rhodinium-plated, cyrogenically-treated, DC-biased, analog singage along the dessolate desert highway reads: 18 miles to Muskogee
Yes, it is but a choice, one of many, we recordists have to consider. Another tool to choose from to put or not into your recording toolbox.
I've been to Muskogee and mainly just drove on through to the other side.
music IS love

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Offline weroflu

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Re: DSD
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2017, 05:02:18 PM »
I can't remember if the following point was in the linked video or on the company's forum. I do not understand dsd yet, but I would like to.

Ted's point was that what people think are dsd recordings are not true dsd. And this is notwithstanding the old bait and switch of dsd that has been converted to high rate pcm for processing and then back again, or where the original source was low rate pcm, etc.  It has to do with how the adc is designed/implemented. Some of the lower cost so called dsd adc's use decimation filters in the stream so it's not actually dsd. I looked at the TI pcm 4222 for example which claims dsd adc but according to the PS audio engineer this would not qualify as real dsd.

page 15 of the pcm4222 datasheet

'the multibit modulator outputs are also routed to a direct stream digital engine (dsd), which converts the multi-bit data to one-bit data'

I want to understand what exactly that means.

Supposed true dsd adc's only exist at the very high end. I would like to at least audition one of these and hear for myself.

The concensus on TS from what I read was that the m2r and pcm d-100 dsd were not worth the effort compared to good pcm.


Offline 108Ω

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Re: DSD
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2017, 05:32:42 PM »
Up against the wall, redbook lover
Mother who raised PCM so well
He's thirty four and drinkin' in a honky tonk
Kickin' hippies' asses and raisin' hell

 ;)

 ;D


About DSD, and multibit... because we're dealing with a streaming format, multibit can compensate for pulse distortions or loss by having a 4-1 ratio
if 3 of 4 are high, one was lost go with 1(high), if 3 of 4 are low, it's low(0), if 2/4 skip (but that is statistically much less likely) 
Of course, all high or all low is a slam-dunk.
Does that make sense?

Any significant signal loss is impactful, but that is true of PCM and analog as well.
It's all about the odds.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 05:41:13 PM by 108 Ohms »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DSD
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2017, 05:59:32 PM »
To confuse things further, there is DSD-wide and DXD, which are mulit-bit formats (8 bits I think) at high rates, used for editing DSD.  Those formats are pretty much high sample rate and lower bit-depth PCM as far as I'm aware, providing large bandwith for converted 1-bit DSD information to fit comfortably, including the frequency-shifted noise.  Similar transitional format manipulation goes on within the ADC/DAC depending on the implementation, or so I've read.

The basic information theory thing is number of bits verses sample rate, slice it how ever you want as long as it adds up (or mulitplies, rather) to provide the sufficient bandwith required.  The devil is in the details of how to manipulate it, and in the conversion details to and from analog at each end.

Basic information theory and PCM is confusing enough for folks. DSD and it's complications seem to confuse everybody even more, without really doing away with the need for PCM (which thankfully isn't going anywhere regardless), so to me it just seems a needless waste of braincells and other resources IMHO.  I sometimes think it was invented just to keep audiophiles arguing so they don't notice more important things that really matter.  But I know it was really just basic human greed that motivated it, cloaked in false claims (thanks Sony).

I think we're getting close to Texas now.  This certainly isn't Kansas anymore, Toto.  Carry on my wayward sons and don't let the radiator boil over..

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Offline Moke

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Re: DSD
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2017, 11:06:15 PM »
Is there an easy way, hopefully free way, to convert DSD to 24.xx .wav?
I have a bunch of DVRA1000 DSD recordings, a few of which I never converted with the software package that came with the DVRA1000.
I'd sure like to get those to a .wav format.
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Offline beatkilla

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Re: DSD
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2017, 07:42:43 AM »
Tascam hi res editor is free.

Offline Moke

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Re: DSD
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2017, 09:10:46 AM »
Tascam hi res editor is free.

Thank you! I finally got around to looking into this last night.  I dl'd the software, and it works great. Best part: Free.
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Offline weroflu

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Re: DSD
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2017, 01:40:31 PM »
Couldn't resist and sprung for an MR-2... gateway drug to higher rate dsd.

I'm a little surprised there isn't more discussion on the difference in sound between pcm and dsd. So far with minimal testing the differences are very audible. It's subtle at first but when a/b'ing back and forth to pcm it is very obvious. The differences are pretty much what most people have described like more pleasant high end (sometimes described as rolled off or smeared), less fatiguing, more depth, and differing opininions about the low end.  Another big difference is a lack of audible distortion. As of now I could sort of describe it as similar to mediocre analog, but no actually it has its own sound.

It could be that the line amps in the korg are using some softish op-amps but  this doesn't account for all of the similar opinions that span different machines.

Who is going to start team dsd?

Offline voltronic

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Re: DSD
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2017, 10:14:06 PM »
Couldn't resist and sprung for an MR-2... gateway drug to higher rate dsd.

I'm a little surprised there isn't more discussion on the difference in sound between pcm and dsd. So far with minimal testing the differences are very audible. It's subtle at first but when a/b'ing back and forth to pcm it is very obvious. The differences are pretty much what most people have described like more pleasant high end (sometimes described as rolled off or smeared), less fatiguing, more depth, and differing opininions about the low end.  Another big difference is a lack of audible distortion. As of now I could sort of describe it as similar to mediocre analog, but no actually it has its own sound.

It could be that the line amps in the korg are using some softish op-amps but  this doesn't account for all of the similar opinions that span different machines.

Who is going to start team dsd?

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but you have to be careful with how much stock you put in listening tests.  Many people out there do not have DACs that natively decode DSD to analog, so when you're A/B-ing against a PCM recording in such a situation, you're really A/B-ing native PCM against DSD which has been transcoded to PCM.  So unless you have a native DSD capable DAC, then you can't attribute any differences you hear exclusively to the format, any any conclusions are therefore invalid. Also consider the differences in DAC chips.  Certain DACs might do a better job at DSD and others at PCM conversion.

Then you have to look at what the source of that DSD recording was.  Native DSD?  Or more likely, high-bitrate PCM (aka DXD) transcoded to DSD?  There are very few DAWs that can edit DSD natively, so chances are very high that your DSD recording was PCM at some point in its life during editing / mixing, if not during initial tracking.  Here's a nice selection of listening examples, but they say right at the top that they are all sourced from the same DXD (PCM) sources.

This article touches on some of the things I mentioned.  Some quotes from the summary:
Quote
DSD has significantly higher quantization noise than PCM, and the noise is much closer to audible frequencies, requiring significantly more sophisticated digital filters, as well as noise-shaping and upsampling algorithms, that can result in distortion of the analog signal.

Pure DSD recordings, as pictured in the flow charts used in DSD marketing hype, are almost nonexistent. There is currently no technology to edit, mix, or master DSD. High-definition 5-bit and 8-bit PCM (Wide-DSD), are used in recording and postproduction editing, mixing, and mastering of nearly all modern DSD recordings.

High-resolution PCM and DSD formats are statistically indistinguishable from one another in blind listening tests.


When a PCM file is played on a DSD or Bit Stream converter, the DAC chip has to convert the PCM to DSD in real time. This is one of the major reasons people claim DSD sounds better than PCM, when in fact, it is just that the chip in most modern single-bit DACs do a poor job of decoding PCM.

Here's another great article from Benchmark.
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