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Author Topic: DPA d:VICE just announced  (Read 12852 times)

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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2017, 04:09:26 PM »
Good news and bad news on this.
I decided that although AudioShare and Recorder Pro would not let me record in 24/96, I would go with Voice Record 7 Pro, which did let me set 96kHz but shuts off recording at 4GB, I was attending a shortish accordion program and two hours would give me plenty of room.  It also turns out that people pull out their cell phones so regularly that resetting to start a new file will likely be no issue most of the time.  Now this was the first time I have taped accordion as well as my first run with the MMA-A so I was way low on levels (I do have sympathy for those who believe that you can never set levels low enough for accordion recording).  Good news is that even with a 12 dB boost the recording sounds fine, so at least two of the extra 8 bits are good. The MMA-A and app work very smoothly, and even after almost two hours the iPhone 6S Plus showed 93% battery left.
The bad news is that even though I got 24/96 size files, there was zero signal present above about 20kHz.  So the two other apps were telling me something true about the iPhone 6S Plus with the current iOS version, it doesn't seem to do 96kH (I know the problem is not with the MMA-A, since I can run it into my laptop and record with Audacity and those high frequencies are definitely present).
Does the Sony phone actually get real 24/96 recordings?  If so, with what app?  Anyone find an app for the iPhone which does 96kH with the MMA-A??
Jeff
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 05:36:56 PM by WiFiJeff »

Offline macdaddy

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2017, 03:08:55 PM »
Do you think this is a hardware issue with the iPhone6plus, or a software issue..?
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2017, 04:41:15 PM »
Good news and bad news on this.
I decided that although AudioShare and Recorder Pro would not let me record in 24/96, I would go with Voice Record 7 Pro, which did let me set 96kH but shuts off recording at 4GB, I was attending a shortish accordion program and two hours would give me plenty of room.  It also turns out that people pull out their cell phones so regularly that resetting to start a new file will likely be no issue most of the time.  Now this was the first time I have taped accordion as well as my first run with the MMA-A so I was way low on levels (I do have sympathy for those who believe that you can never set levels low enough for accordion recording).  Good news is that even with a 12 dB boost the recording sounds fine, so at least two of the extra 8 bits are good. The MMA-A and app work very smoothly, and even after almost two hours the iPhone 6S Plus showed 93% battery left.
The bad news is that even though I got 24/96 size files, there was zero signal present above about 20kH.  So the two other apps were telling me something true about the iPhone 6S Plus with the current iOS version, it doesn't seem to do 96kH (I know the problem is not with the MMA-A, since I can run it into my laptop and record with Audacity and those high frequencies are definitely present).
Does the Sony phone actually get real 24/96 recordings?  If so, with what app?  Anyone find an app for the iPhone which does 96kH with the MMA-A??
Jeff

Just because you are recording at 96kHz doesn't mean there will actually be any information above 20kHz - just that it is capable of reproducing it if there is. Very few microphones will capture any data at that frequency range and very few things will make any sound at that frequency anyway. Violins, organs, maybe a few other instruments close miked will have very high frequency info but most will not. Also, it's above the range of human hearing capability, so I don't see what the big deal is.
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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2017, 06:04:28 PM »

Just because you are recording at 96kHz doesn't mean there will actually be any information above 20kHz - just that it is capable of reproducing it if there is. Very few microphones will capture any data at that frequency range and very few things will make any sound at that frequency anyway. Violins, organs, maybe a few other instruments close miked will have very high frequency info but most will not. Also, it's above the range of human hearing capability, so I don't see what the big deal is.
This is very true. Cymbals and horns have a lot of uhf content too, btw.

Also if you're recording a PA system, typical dynamic stage mics used for rock don't have much over 20kHz, so the mix won't have much of that content either.

Uses I can think of for 96K include
improved anti-aliasing filters
making recordings designed for animals like birds or dogs
future-proofing your recordings in case humans develop improved hearing via medical, genetic, or evolutionary means
if you want to play back samples (for instance, of bird songs) shifted down several octaves and still wanted some high frequency content.

I found out a couple years ago that I can't even hear 13kHz anymore. I used to be able to hear television sets blasting their 15750 Hz NTSC lines, back when I half as old as I am now!!  :tomato:
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2017, 07:12:49 PM »
The same mics (DPAs) into Audacity on a PC give signal up there very obvious in an iZotope Rx frequency plot of the file.  And, yes, you can't hear that extension if you select for it and have iZotope Rx play it.  But just like I like to have extra bits so I can boost a low recording level before dithering to 16 bits, when I get to work in iZotope I find it helps to have extra kHz for fixing junk like audience noise and background crap.  Can I prove that?  No. but I think others, who also can't hear above 20 kHz, like using 96kHz for that reason too.  Go tell SD, Nagra, and Sonosax to drop 96 kH recording.
I asked a question on Gearslutz about iOS apps for recording at 96kHz a few weeks ago, so far over 250 people have read it and the thread has logged not a single response.  Here people are more friendly, telling me several times that I don't really want to do 96kHz, which somehow doesn't really feel helpful.  YES I DO WANT 96kHz.  Even if I have to buy a Sony phone to do it (thanks for that pointer, Chrysler).
By the way, if you don't feel you need more than 48kHz and two channels, the DPA MMA-A is marvelous. 

Jeff
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 05:38:41 PM by WiFiJeff »

Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2017, 07:49:28 PM »
Do you think this is a hardware issue with the iPhone6plus, or a software issue..?

Not sure.  It may also be iOS 10.3, which my phone upgraded itself to last week.  A lot of the audio apps seem (by the feedback complaints) to have lost features in earlier iOS "upgrades."  The d:vice is new, so I haven't seen any reports of successful use at 96kH with other iPhone models or iOS versions.  I started out thinking the app was at fault, but I have tried three apps that claim to do 96kH and none can. 

Offline macdaddy

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2017, 08:29:56 PM »
Early adopters blues. I was just wondering if this issue is due to hardware, operating system, or app

Color me confused, but isn't sampling rate the number of times per second samples are taken..? I didn't think it had anything to do with range of hearing...
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 08:32:01 PM by macdaddy »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2017, 08:50:35 PM »
Color me confused, but isn't sampling rate the number of times per second samples are taken..? I didn't think it had anything to do with range of hearing...

That's correct.  Sample rate determines the frequency range capable of being captured - based on the fundamentals of sampling theory, frequencies up to half the sample rate are capable of being recorded and reproduced.  In reality slightly less than half is possible due to the impossibility of a infinitely sharp cut off filter, and in the real world all the other stuff involved - sources, microphones, reproduction gear, and all the other bits in between may or may not be capable of passing the high frequency information if it is there.

Nothing to do with what we can hear or not, but rather the "bandwidth" capability of the recording system.
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Offline macdaddy

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2017, 11:41:08 PM »
Thx for the confirmation, gb
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Offline aaronji

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2017, 10:38:04 AM »
^ The reason people are bringing up the range of hearing is that, beyond 40 kHz (plus a little for filtering, as implied by Gutbucket), you are recording frequencies that can't be heard.  By humans, anyway.  That's why CDs are 44.1 kHz; 20 kHz frequency  response, plus some room for the filters (some details from Wiki).

when I get to work in iZotope I find it helps to have extra kHz for fixing junk like audience noise and background crap.

Couldn't you just upsample with a good SRC for the editing?  I am pretty sure ~Jon Stoppable posted about doing that previously, but I can't find his post at the moment...

Offline goodcooker

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2017, 11:20:46 AM »

Not trying to tell you what to do or how to record. Just pointing out a few details that other users may be interested in.

John Peluso claims his microphones pick up frequencies up to 30 kHz and some folks swear that without the upper frequency data being represented the way we perceive the data (hear the sounds) in the audible range is affected. Like recording a violin, for example.

Do your thang man!

On topic. I really like this device and would seriously consider getting a 4061 setup for stage lip recordings and super low pro stuff. Not that I do much of that. It would be nice to be able to have it in a pocket to take to shows as a just in case scenario. I don't do anything apple but I could get a used iPhone off Craigslist for cheaper than a new recorder.
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Offline aaronji

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2017, 06:51:21 PM »
John Peluso claims his microphones pick up frequencies up to 30 kHz and some folks swear that without the upper frequency data being represented the way we perceive the data (hear the sounds) in the audible range is affected. Like recording a violin, for example.

Dan Lavry counters that argument in several of his venerable white papers, such as this one:

Quote from: Dan Lavry
It has been well documented that acoustic musical instruments generate energy at frequencies far above audibility. In the performance space (before any recording takes place), if there is any mechanism that enable ultrasonic frequencies to impact what we hear, it would require energy transfer from ultrasonic frequencies to the audible range. Therefore, using microphones and gear that cover what we hear enables us to capture and keep ALL the energy we need.

YMMV and all...

On topic. I really like this device and would seriously consider getting a 4061 setup for stage lip recordings and super low pro stuff. Not that I do much of that. It would be nice to be able to have it in a pocket to take to shows as a just in case scenario. I don't do anything apple but I could get a used iPhone off Craigslist for cheaper than a new recorder.

It should also work with an iPod with the appropriate connector, which may be cheaper (and have more memory).

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2017, 08:50:49 AM »
WiFiJeff, stay away from the 24/96 Kool-Aid.  It will give you headaches.. :bigsmile:
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2017, 10:34:05 AM »
Oh boy! Sample rate arguments.

Lavry' argument doesn't counter Peluso's so much as meshing with it in an pragmatic way.  In the paper linked above he states that he feels 96kHz is the preferred top rate for audio quality partly because it is capable of recording sources which reach up to ~40khz, yet isn't ridiculously wasteful of resources beyond that, where ever higher rates can actually begin to introduce problems of reduced accuracy.  He's a quintessential engineer by mindset, and engineering is all about finding optimized solutions to problems - the sweet spot in the middle ground, enough to provide leeway but not too much extra.

Working from that principle, I've reached the conclusion that for music recording in general, sample rates from 44.1khz to 96kHz are reasonable, and 192kHz (or more) is total overkill.  I choose to record at 48kHz because I couldn't hear a significant difference between 48kHz and 96kHz in test recordings I've made using my gear in optimal conditions and don't feel the doubling of storage space requirements is worth whatever subtle benefits the higher rate might provide, compounded by having found far more very-audible value in increasing channel count over increases in sample rate.  As my channel counts have increased, the need to keep file-sizes manageable has also grown increasingly compelling, solidifying that decision.  I'm always recording at least 4 channels, often 6, sometimes up to 8 or more. 

Those are my practical reasons for recording at 48kHz. I don't have any philosophical problems whatsoever with others choosing to record at 96kHz, but I do question the pragmatism of anything higher.

There is also a common argument about what quality envelope is really required to fully contain taper recordings of PA systems.  Okay, I understand that and it certainly applies in many cases here at TS.  Yet some members here such as WifiJeff are recording a lot of non-amplified acoustic music in fine acoustic spaces where the argument for a higher quality envelope gains traction.

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Offline aaronji

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Re: DPA d:VICE just announced
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2017, 10:52:10 AM »
^ Actually, Lavry argues that ~ 60 kHz would be ideal, but, since that is generally not an option, 88.2 or 96 are good (available) choices.  He definitely argues, in both this paper and his Sampling Theory one, that any audible impact of ultrasonics can be recorded with gear that captures the audible range; his reasons for going higher are purely engineering.

In any event, I am not arguing for or against 96 kHz.  Since WiFiJeff is having trouble finding software that works at 96 kHz, I was just suggesting a work-around that might meet his need for manipulation in post based on upsampling...

 

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