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Author Topic: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6  (Read 114309 times)

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Offline voltronic

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #315 on: June 14, 2017, 09:22:41 PM »
I like this unit on paper very much, but the 3 modes still seem a bit confusing to me, and I hope that they are changed a bit in a future firmware update.

The way I'd want to use this is for recording something like an orchestra or chamber ensemble, with a main stereo pair on channels 1-2 as a linked pair, and two solo spots on channels 3 and 4 individually controlled, with no L/R mixdown.  I also want to be able to quickly adjust all of the gain levels from the 4 channel knobs.  Strangely, it doesn't seem possible to do all of that in Advanced mode.  To adjust ISO gain in Advanced mode, you have to press the channel fader to go into that channel menu, then select Gain, then use the headphone encoder.  Moving the channel knobs in Advanced is adjusting fader level for the L/R mixdown; not ISO gain, which you have to go back into the channel menu to adjust.  To get ISO gain control from the channel knobs and channel linking, you have to use Custom mode.

In the video below at the linked time (2:47) he demonstrates the bug a few have mentioned where deactivating the L/R track while Gain is set to Basic causes the ISO tracks to record at very low levels.  This would make the recording situation I described above not possible until this is fixed.
https://youtu.be/XAaWUbCpCPg?t=167

Possible bugs aside, wouldn't it be far simpler if Custom and Advanced modes were combined into one mode?  Right now, you change to Custom mode and set Gain to Basic to control your ISO gain from the channel knobs.  This doesn't really describe what is happening.  Instead, I'd like to see a submenu in Advanced called [Front Panel Knobs] with the options [Channel Gain] and [Track Fader].  You could also have a shortcut toggle between the two modes of knob operation by holding down the channel knob, you then are in the other mode which is indicated onscreen and with a flashing LED ring, you long press the knob again to toggle back.  That might be even easier.

You can set the gain on each linked pair but it is a bit convoluted and not intuitive.  Push channel | Touch gain | Twist headphone knob or use up/down arrows on touch screen.  If channels are linked they gain as a pair.

Yes, that's my point.  So many steps to do a single simple operation, which anyone experienced with audio equipment would expect to do a certain thing when you twist the corresponding channel pot/encoder. 
 
I am pretty sure all the front knobs are currently good for is to select a channel menu and to adjust the level of each of the four respective channels in the LR mix and that is it. 

In Advanced mode, that appears to be the case.  And it's pretty silly in my opinion to make these nice rotary encoder knobs with integrated pushbuttons and multicolor LED surrounds, only to give them limited functionality in any one mode.  They don't seem to do any more in Advanced than what they do in Basic, and in Custom (with Gain set to Basic) you simply get the opposite function instead of additional function.  Advanced mode should let you freely toggle the function of said knobs between channel gain and faders for the mix.  Free the knobs!

Ironically I am going to disable the mix track because I do everything in post anyway.

Well that's how I work also, but be careful - as per the bug discussed above, if you have Gain set to Basic (via Custom mode) to control ISO gain with the knobs, you get very low levels on your ISO tracks.  Or you work in Advanced, and adjust gain through the menu and headphone encoder.


I applaud the early adopters here.  For me, I think I'm going to watch from the sidelines for a while until new firmware makes these more intuitive to use.
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Offline willndmb

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #316 on: June 14, 2017, 10:24:40 PM »
Some pictures with the L-style battery attached. I have a 3-shelf Petrol bag and had to remove one of the separators to have room for the mixpre-3 to sit on the bottom with the L-style battery mount.

That picture in the Petrol bag is pretty hilarious!  So much empty space, just to make room for the (relatively) huge batteries attached to a tiny deck!

I wonder why they chose to do the double L-style battery mount for these, sacrificing the compactness that is clearly a big selling point.  I know, long runtimes, hot-swappable, etc.  But if a 788 runs for a reasonable amount of time off of one L-style battery, then couldn't they have made a powering sled that would hold a single battery oriented at the rear, kind of like what you see for the 7-series?
thats how I assumed it was set up, I def wouldn't be buying the l dock
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Offline johnw

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #317 on: June 14, 2017, 11:04:26 PM »
Can anyone explain what changing custom>channel>basic does? My unit doesn't seem to do what works for the guy in this video.
https://youtu.be/4WR3yTQrgIw

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Offline gewwang

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #318 on: June 14, 2017, 11:09:28 PM »
couldn't they have made a powering sled that would hold a single battery oriented at the rear, kind of like what you see for the 7-series?

I feel the same way. They could have had room for 2 L-style batteries oriented that way if the pins you push the batteries into were back-to-back. That would let the unit sit in the petrol type bags the same way the 7xx's do.

Offline Todd R

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #319 on: June 15, 2017, 01:59:41 AM »
Can anyone explain what changing custom>channel>basic does? My unit doesn't seem to do what works for the guy in this video.
https://youtu.be/4WR3yTQrgIw

Go to system, select custom mode, the menu will prompt you to set all channel knobs to off if you havent already (fully counter clockwise), press ok to the menu prompt. Go back one menu, select custom set up.  Select advanced for channel (allows full range of panning, solo, etc), probably select advanced for everything in both set up menus except gain, here select basic.  Go back to the home menu. At this point, the main channel knobs will dial in pre fader gain.  At fully counter clockwise where they should be it will be zero gain, can be increased up to 92db of gain.
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Offline rigpimp

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #320 on: June 15, 2017, 02:24:51 AM »
Go to system, select custom mode, the menu will prompt you to set all channel knobs to off if you havent already (fully counter clockwise), press ok to the menu prompt. Go back one menu, select custom set up.  Select advanced for channel (allows full range of panning, solo, etc), probably select advanced for everything in both set up menus except gain, here select basic.  Go back to the home menu. At this point, the main channel knobs will dial in pre fader gain.  At fully counter clockwise where they should be it will be zero gain, can be increased up to 92db of gain.

Thank you for this Todd!
Mics: Schoeps MK 5 MP, Schoeps MK 8 MP, Schoeps MK 41 MP, KCY 250/5 > PFA
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Offline johnw

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #321 on: June 15, 2017, 07:22:11 AM »
Can anyone explain what changing custom>channel>basic does? My unit doesn't seem to do what works for the guy in this video.
https://youtu.be/4WR3yTQrgIw

Go to system, select custom mode, the menu will prompt you to set all channel knobs to off if you havent already (fully counter clockwise), press ok to the menu prompt. Go back one menu, select custom set up.  Select advanced for channel (allows full range of panning, solo, etc), probably select advanced for everything in both set up menus except gain, here select basic.  Go back to the home menu. At this point, the main channel knobs will dial in pre fader gain.  At fully counter clockwise where they should be it will be zero gain, can be increased up to 92db of gain.

Thanks, that's how I've had mine set up. My question wasn't really clear. In the video, the guy wants to record only ISO tracks (no mix). He called Sound Devices and was told that he should turn channel to basic. In his video he shows that he has 4 armed ISO tracks and is not recording mix tracks. This seems to be what a lot of users here want. The problem is that people are reporting low gain. I haven't tried this myself, but I'm wondering that if turning off the mix tracks but having channel on advanced is somehow causing the low gain problem? Personally I want the mix+4 iso tracks so not a big deal to me.
Schoeps MK41 & MK4V  |  Schoeps CMC6, Schoeps KCY, AKI/2C, PFA, Nbox Cable/PFA  |  Grace V2, Nbox Platinum  |  SD744T, SD MixPre 6, Sony PCM M10

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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #322 on: June 15, 2017, 09:38:26 AM »
Some pictures with the L-style battery attached. I have a 3-shelf Petrol bag and had to remove one of the separators to have room for the mixpre-3 to sit on the bottom with the L-style battery mount.

That picture in the Petrol bag is pretty hilarious!  So much empty space, just to make room for the (relatively) huge batteries attached to a tiny deck!

I wonder why they chose to do the double L-style battery mount for these, sacrificing the compactness that is clearly a big selling point.  I know, long runtimes, hot-swappable, etc.  But if a 788 runs for a reasonable amount of time off of one L-style battery, then couldn't they have made a powering sled that would hold a single battery oriented at the rear, kind of like what you see for the 7-series?

I completely agree that the L battery should have mounted on the back like the 7-series. 

Maybe someone will come up with a 3d printed version to hold a single L style battery. 


Offline Todd R

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #323 on: June 15, 2017, 10:59:09 AM »
I'm wondering that if turning off the mix tracks but having channel on advanced is somehow causing the low gain problem? Personally I want the mix+4 iso tracks so not a big deal to me.

I haven't tested this yet since I assume I can just record the mix track and then scrap it later if I don't want it (don't think I will).  But from reading the posts, I thought it was the opposite:  there currently is a bug causing low gain when no LR mix track is recorded and when you select basic mode or select basic gain in custom mode.  I thought the gain was fine if you recorded no LR mix track and used Advanced mode.  Could be wrong though, I'll try to test it when I get a chance.
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #324 on: June 15, 2017, 11:02:36 AM »
I had a question via pm about using custom mode with advanced channel, etc but using basic gain (as I described above).  As far as I can tell, if you set up this way to use the main channel knobs to control pre-fade gain as many people apparently want to do, you no longer have the option of channel linking.

Set up this way, the channel menu (accessed by pressing the gain knob) only includes 2 menu pages, and linking is not an option.  Set up in Advanced mode, the channel menu is 3 pages deep and channel linking is an option.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
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Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #325 on: June 15, 2017, 11:09:50 AM »
I thought the gain was fine if you recorded no LR mix track and used Advanced mode.

I can confirm what I've said in a few postings here: that when I am totally in Advanced mode, I can record the ISO tracks with full gain while NOT recording the LR mix.

EDIT: Just remember, when you are not recording the LR mix, to change the headphone source so you can hear the ISO tracks playback. Headphone default is LR mix.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 11:14:22 AM by dogmusic »
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Offline rigpimp

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #326 on: June 15, 2017, 11:19:36 AM »
Does the low gain bug record low gain or just drop the settings all down to 6db.  I noticed the latter but I bring it back up to the 30-40 range and set it I think it's fine.
Mics: Schoeps MK 5 MP, Schoeps MK 8 MP, Schoeps MK 41 MP, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2, Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Baby Nbox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
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Playback: Jolida 1501 Hybrid > McIntosh MX 130 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR, or Little Dot MK III > Sennheiser HD700
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Offline vwmule

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #327 on: June 15, 2017, 11:24:53 AM »
Seems like it's time for a clearly articulated cheat sheet to menu options suited for two channel (and other configs) recording. Can someone whip one up as this thread has fast become confusing.

Offline nolamule

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #328 on: June 15, 2017, 11:35:55 AM »
Agreed!

Seems like it's time for a clearly articulated cheat sheet to menu options suited for two channel (and other configs) recording. Can someone whip one up as this thread has fast become confusing.

Offline Todd R

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6
« Reply #329 on: June 15, 2017, 11:39:49 AM »
I will say, based on the posts, there seem to be a lot of people who want the main channel knobs to control gain (pre-fade gain).  As noted, this can be done using Basic mode or by using Custom mode with gain set to basic.

Sound devices seems to get a lot of heat for their position on gain both here and on other discussion boards and have pulled the manual or tech note section they had on A Note About Gain.  But I think they are right and for many people here it's worth considering what they were saying.

For perhaps the majority of the board who are recording concerts with the more usual mic techniques (i.e., not using a Soundfield mic or not using M-S recording), messing with your gain while recording the show probably doesn't help with the quality of the recording and just makes your life more difficult.  Assuming of course, you are "mastering" the recording in post with some sound editing software and normalizing your levels.  For instance, I spent many an hour during post-production trying to smooth out very noticeable and very jarring level changes I made while recording so the result on playback is much more smooth.

When I started DAT recording, recorders like a Sony D7 were very noisy, making it best to record near 0dbFS.  On top of that, for myself, I transferred my DATs to CDR using a standalone Marantz CDR burner.  There was no raising my levels in post, so if I recorded with peaks at -16dbFS, my CDR recording was very low.  The situation is very different today, both with the use of post-production with sound editing software and with much, much improved recorders.

The Mixpre-6 has a noise level of -130dbV and has 120db of dynamic range -- very quiet, very low noise, very wide dynamic range.  If we're recording concerts in large arenas or bars, the noise level of the environment without any music playing would be something like 60db being very generous, probably more like 65-70db (or more).  And ear-splittingly loud, the concert with the music playing is 120db.  So we only need 50-60db of dynamic range.

If the noise level of the club is say 65db and the internal noise of the MP6 is -130dbV, you pretty much cannot possibly set your levels so low that the internal noise of the MP6 is louder than the noise level of the recording environment.  So take an educated guess and set your levels so that you expect peaks no louder than -40dbFS.  Plenty of headroom so you don't clip, and you can boost/normalize your recording in post by 40db and it will sound no different than if you rode your levels and recorded at -3dbFS and only boosted 3db in post.

That is set your gain so that you expect your levels to be quite low with plenty of headroom and no chance of going over, and you have a very easy job of simply normalizing in post.  Compared to finding each time you decided to increase gain using the front panel gain knobs (if you set up in basic gain mode) and somehow massaging that recorded passage to make any level changes unnoticeable for the listener.

Long story short, given the noise level and dynamic range of the mixpre-6 and especially given the noise level of a concert environment, I really don't see what is the expected benefit of making any adjustments to gain once the show has started.   What are people trying to accomplish?  Maybe there are valid reasons and for some taping situations it might make sense, but for most of us doing the recording we do and mastering/normalizing in post, I don't see the benefit of needing to set levels at all during the show.  Set the MP6 at a very, very conservative amount of gain before the show starts and never change levels again.  Or set the MP6 to advanced mode with very, very conservative pre-fade gain and use the front faders to make a LR post-fade recording if it makes you feel more comfortable.  I'd bet for many people once they get used to the new way of doing things would just archive the LR mix recording and would use the ISO tracks with the very low levels for mastering and final distribution.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

 

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