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Author Topic: Schoeps: MK21 vs MK22 vs MK41  (Read 1289 times)

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Offline Charlie Miller

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Schoeps: MK21 vs MK22 vs MK41
« on: June 29, 2017, 12:14:23 PM »
I have MK4's and have always wanted sub-card caps but I'm not sure which ones to get. I like both 21's and 22's but can't afford both. I'll be running them on stage to mix with the sbd. Which would you pick and why?

Another option is I just get MK41's (for bigger shows like Phish). I really like my Phish vegas recordings but wouldn't mind having hypers, mainly for the Bakers Dozen.

Thanks for your input.
Audio Engineer - Steve Kimock Productions


Schoeps CMC6/MK4 -> Lunatec V2 ->  Sound Devices 744T

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Schoeps: MK21 vs MK22 vs MK41
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 01:42:15 PM »
sell your mk4 capsules and buy mk41 and mk22. Those will cover you for all situations.

FWIW, I prefer the mk41v, as much for ease of setup, as anything else.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 01:47:56 PM by noahbickart »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v, mk4v, mk22, mk3 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
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Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Schoeps: MK21 vs MK22 vs MK41
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2017, 02:49:51 PM »
Charlie,
Another person on this board, raoulduke, just bought from the factory MK4vj's. He claims Schoeps said they are rarely asked for or made. They are a cardiod which has a reduced HF response and fast roll off above that.
But, of course, you won't be getting anything special ordered before MSG.
Here is a thread where DSatz writes about the mk4vj: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174613.0
Quote
noahbickart, the "MK 4 VJ" is no longer available; Schoeps stopped making them six or seven years ago by now. They might reconsider if someone placed a firm order for, say, 30 pairs of capsules, but even then I'm not sure; they seem really resistant to the idea of making any more of them. I think it disturbs them that the response in the top half-octave rolls off as much as it does, although it's perfectly appropriate for the capsule's original purpose.

--hi and lo, Schoeps has an important broadcasting client in Japan who came to them maybe ~20 years ago with a problem: They'd been using a particular Japanese-made cardioid ribbon microphone when recording a certain traditional, plucked string instrument--perhaps a shamisen. But that microphone had been discontinued, and its manufacturer could no longer replace damaged ribbons. One by one those microphones were failing.

So Schoeps measured one of the remaining microphones that the client still had in good working order, and came up with a variant of the MK 4 V that mimicked its response. This turned out to be close to the response characteristic of the MK 6 in its cardioid setting, though not identical. In MK 6 capsules made or rebuilt since the mid-1970s, the frequency response in the cardioid setting has a relatively broad 1-to-2 dB elevation in the treble, somewhat like a reduced version of the MK 4 V's. The MK 4 VJ has this elevation to an even lesser degree, and above that, its response rolls off a little sooner. This capsule variant was never included in the catalog or price list, but was known as the MK 4 VJ ("J" = Japan).
music IS love

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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Schoeps: MK21 vs MK22 vs MK41
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2017, 12:00:23 AM »
Charlie,
Another person on this board, raoulduke, just bought from the factory MK4vj's. He claims Schoeps said they are rarely asked for or made. They are a cardiod which has a reduced HF response and fast roll off above that.
But, of course, you won't be getting anything special ordered before MSG.
Here is a thread where DSatz writes about the mk4vj: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174613.0
Quote
noahbickart, the "MK 4 VJ" is no longer available; Schoeps stopped making them six or seven years ago by now. They might reconsider if someone placed a firm order for, say, 30 pairs of capsules, but even then I'm not sure; they seem really resistant to the idea of making any more of them. I think it disturbs them that the response in the top half-octave rolls off as much as it does, although it's perfectly appropriate for the capsule's original purpose.

--hi and lo, Schoeps has an important broadcasting client in Japan who came to them maybe ~20 years ago with a problem: They'd been using a particular Japanese-made cardioid ribbon microphone when recording a certain traditional, plucked string instrument--perhaps a shamisen. But that microphone had been discontinued, and its manufacturer could no longer replace damaged ribbons. One by one those microphones were failing.

So Schoeps measured one of the remaining microphones that the client still had in good working order, and came up with a variant of the MK 4 V that mimicked its response. This turned out to be close to the response characteristic of the MK 6 in its cardioid setting, though not identical. In MK 6 capsules made or rebuilt since the mid-1970s, the frequency response in the cardioid setting has a relatively broad 1-to-2 dB elevation in the treble, somewhat like a reduced version of the MK 4 V's. The MK 4 VJ has this elevation to an even lesser degree, and above that, its response rolls off a little sooner. This capsule variant was never included in the catalog or price list, but was known as the MK 4 VJ ("J" = Japan).


Thank you!
Audio Engineer - Steve Kimock Productions


Schoeps CMC6/MK4 -> Lunatec V2 ->  Sound Devices 744T

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Schoeps: MK21 vs MK22 vs MK41
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2017, 10:07:41 AM »
^^^^^^^^^
Charlie,
You can PM raoulduke. He generally only keeps his eye on the YS, and his wife is about to have a baby this month, so he may not be paying attention to TS as much. BUT, I taped with him last week when he was using these and he was very excited and could definitely provide you with some info.

edit to add link to his DeadnCo 2017-06-20 SPAC MK4vj recording: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=182702.0
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 10:15:05 AM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline acidjack

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Re: Schoeps: MK21 vs MK22 vs MK41
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2017, 02:24:37 PM »
I think you'll be happier with the 22s for the taping situation you describe. The 21 is no doubt amazing for mic'ing a piano or something like that really up close, but even at onstage distance, I think you get a bit of a flabby sound out of it.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

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Offline pohaku

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Re: Schoeps: MK21 vs MK22 vs MK41
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2017, 03:38:15 PM »
I've been pretty pleased with my mk21s.  I do get more use out of my mk41s, but that is more a function of recording opportunity and set up.  Here is a Dropbox link with 21s on stage lip with a musette quartet.

https://www.dropbox.com/pri/get/Chris%20Lynch%20Quartet%20at%20the%20Aster%20First%20Track%208-28-2016.wav?_subject_uid=242371362&w=AADM3-JylrgHBPEewLwRGeiPKwUyPt4TES8AEZtnaYSMSQ

« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 12:40:22 AM by pohaku »
Mics: akg c460 (ck61, ck63), c414buls, c568eb; at4049a, 4051a, 4053a, at853; josephson c42; neumann U87, km84i; beyer m130, m160, m500; aea r84; gefell m71, mt711s, m200, m201; sony c38; schoeps cmc6, (mk4, mk21, mk41, mk4v); sennheiser mkh40, md421, md431, md541
Pres: API, a-designs, pendulum, purple, millennia, gt, littlebox, tinybox, usbpre2, CA 9200, pipsqueak, pueblo pending
Cables: KCY, CMR, Naiant AKG actives, PFAs, asst.  GAKables and Darktrain
Recorders/converters: dr680, m10, dr-2d, d50, dr70d, zoom f8, 788T SSD CL-8, lynx aurora 8


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Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps: MK21 vs MK22 vs MK41
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2017, 10:19:12 AM »
I have pairs of both the MK 21 and MK 22. There has only ever been one time in my live recording experience when I felt that the MK 21 was the optimal choice; there have been many times when the MK 22 was it for me. The CMC 6 with MK 22 has become one of my favorite microphones ever. It goes beyond the pickup pattern--it's the sound quality itself. That tone just sounds really beautiful to my ears, as a purely subjective reaction.

But that's me. For various reasons (not all entirely rational) I've tended to prefer directional microphones over omnis for a long time now. That's a bias that I have, and a certain kind of "feedback loop" tends to increase this bias: I have a much larger amount of recent experience making live stereo recordings with directional microphones--so I trust myself with that approach better than with recording methods I haven't used lately--which in turn becomes a factor in my subsequent choices, and so on.

Some other people are more comfortable and conversant with spaced-omni recordings than I am. They practice that technique all the time, so they (not surprisingly) can make better recordings that way than I'd most likely make with that same technique. (I don't know about you, but whenever I've lent my microphones to other people and listened to the results they've gotten, I've often been surprised at how different those results were from what I imagined I would have gotten with the same equipment. Or when I've consciously chosen the same type of microphones and setup as an engineer whose work I admired, such as David Griesinger or Marc Aubort, I still didn't get the same sound and feel as that other engineer.)

Anyway my point is, maybe if you're someone who records with omnis a lot, you might prefer the MK 21 over the MK 22, I dunno.

OTOH you might want to branch out on purpose and go a step farther from what you're precisely used to; I dunno that, either.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 10:23:42 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Schoeps: MK21 vs MK22 vs MK41
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2017, 05:35:50 PM »
Thanks. I think I'm gonna get 22's.
Audio Engineer - Steve Kimock Productions


Schoeps CMC6/MK4 -> Lunatec V2 ->  Sound Devices 744T

 

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