Topic: Internal mics question

[bombdiggity]

In the shitstorm that is the bulk of this thread I lost track of this offer but am downloading now.  Maybe I'll have a few minutes to listen. 

It is an obvious simple test of one aspect but will not satisfy the fundamental cage match argument of the threadjack, which of course will still not be answered even if the parties did wind up in the same place.  That argument is not intended to be answered or even tested.  It's: 

[Gutbucket]

Quote from: Moke on August 01, 2017, 05:39:27 PM
https://we.tl/yskBf4qfez

R09 vs. DPA 4022 -> Grace V3 -> SD 722 (DIN stereo @ 9')
Same mic stand, w/ R09 a bit lower due to no sound checking; an impromptu recording by conductors request. He was curious as to how the internals of the R09 sounded, as he was considering buying one for rehearsals, music lessons, composing.

Hall,... multi-purpose room at Country Club Golf Course - not a music hall.  You'll hear stuff in the recording, like HVAC.
And, its acoustic music, and not some bloated PA sounds.

So, did anyone listen?
Thoughts??

I remember this one from years ago.  Classic  R-09 era Bodyglove case in the photo, BTW.
Just listened again.

I can identify which is which via several audible ques, and prefer the 4022s overall, but that's not really the point being made.  The R-09 internals hold up really well here, perhaps the best I've ever heard from them, which to me is further evidence confirming that recording is always situation dependent, and this was a situation to which the internal R-09 mics were quite well suited.

To avoid being the spoiler, I'll withhold disclosing file identity or the specific ques I'm listening for. 

[mfrench]

You are right on, Lee.
The biggest thing that I hear in them is in the amount of air conditioner noise that is apparent. Omnis always pick that up more, and there is no way around it. In this particular case, I had the main mic array up around 9', which is really high for me.  I had them angled downward at a fairly steep pitch, to focus on the mid-to-rear of the orchestra, which put the ceiling vents towards the rear null of the stereo pattern response. So,  the HVAC noise is less so in the 4022 track.
One thing I am impressed with the R09 is in the amount of stereo separation. Now that might be in part due to the fact that the recorder was in that Body Glove case, which only provides a clean aural view from the sides? guesstulatiing.

[Scooter123]

I have used DR2ds for over five years and still own that recorder for ALD and IEM pulls. 

It would seem to me that the easy answer to this question is simply have Da-Spy make his usual Schoeps masterpiece with his DR2d and make a second recording using another DR2d with the internals.  Do it in a low key show, so people don't get too freaked out by a guy holding up a recorder. 

Unless I am missing something, isn't that the easy answer?  Unless of course, something special is being done with the DR2d that I am not aware of. 

[daspyknows]

I have used DR2ds for over five years and still own that recorder for ALD and IEM pulls. 

It would seem to me that the easy answer to this question is simply have Da-Spy make his usual Schoeps masterpiece with his DR2d and make a second recording using another DR2d with the internals.  Do it in a low key show, so people don't get too freaked out by a guy holding up a recorder. 

Unless I am missing something, isn't that the easy answer?  Unless of course, something special is being done with the DR2d that I am not aware of.

I don't have Furby's special  skills though like rolling off the bass.

[aaronji]

One thing I am impressed with the R09 is in the amount of stereo separation.

Interesting that you say that.  To me, the most immediately obvious difference was the much better separation on the DPA recording, and that was after having read vanark's post about the noise in the other thread (so I was anticipating the noise).

I'm thinking that part of the reason the R09 sounds as good as it does is that it was up on a stand.  Most internal recordings I have heard have been from inside a pocket...

[mfrench]

My suggestion about separation was based purely on the fact that there was any, at all.  I was expecting it to come out as a two channel mono sound, due to the closeness of the mics (to each other). So, it was quite a surprise on first listen.

[Gutbucket]

I think your speculation about the case creating additional directionality compared to an R-09 without that case has merit.

With the recorder in the Bodyglove case, you can only see the microphone grid openings when looking from the sides, not from the front or back.  That particular phone case curved around the recorder at the bottom, but had flat front and back surfaces at the top where the microphones are located which sort of formed small ear-like flaps blocking direct sound arriving from directly in front or behind the recorder yet open to the sides and top. 

[mfrench]

In my time with the R09-class, and possible uses as a standalone.... I've used it in the sample here, and, had a need for it another time. 
That other time,.. *[rolls eyes, smacks forehead, feels sick smilies here]
I was at an organ recital. I was rushed, and needed a battery for my mma6k.  I bought a new one at a convenience store en route. New battery dies before end of first set.
I could just use the internal mics, right? You'd think...
Nope, I totally forgot about them, and folded up shop. *[apply same smilie set here]

Let me tell you about the time that I used the DR70D internals,... without knowing it.  I'd somehow gotten confused in the manual, and turned the internals on, and then dropped the deck into my recording bag, and recorded those two channels from inside my bag, thinking that I was on external mics.  This one sucked. But it did explain the weird reaction to attempted level changes for those two channels.

[aaronji]

My suggestion about separation was based purely on the fact that there was any, at all.  I was expecting it to come out as a two channel mono sound, due to the closeness of the mics (to each other). So, it was quite a surprise on first listen.

Yeah, definitely better than you might expect from (essentially) coincident omnis.  The explanation that you guys postulate seems reasonable to me; a little baffling can really make a big difference.

[mfrench]

I love baffles. This one is my handiest...

But seriously. In my experiments in seeing how small I could go with baffles, this one was really neat. I wandered around this park area listening to life going by.  It was really quite a lesson.
I totally concur, that it doesn't take much to make a substantial difference.

[furburger]

I disagree.  Furburger said that internals are as good or better than "expensive" microphones (yes, percentages were cited).  A true test for that is to eliminate all variables other than the actual equipment being used to record and make an accurate comparison. 

What's the point in that? That test has been done tons of times, hell I've even done that, you don't need daspy or furburger, just an "expensive" rig and a deck with internals mounted on the same mic stand, it wouldn't prove anything that most people haven't already determined for themselves. This is a tapers throw-down, one taper claims he can make a recording as good as another's using internals (or Sonics), time to put up or shut up, put them both in the same ring and let them have at it.

How's this sound for starters:
1) Same show, artist and venue.
2) Each taper picks their favorite song, and the other taper submits same song, then from the set-list someone else picks a song, so each taper submits the same 3 songs, one of which they feel is their best.
3) Someone collects the data and music and hosts the files, with no identifiers other then Song1-A or Song1-B, switch it around so A and B aren't always the same taper.

for my favorite terrorist daspy....

the #NineElevenShowdown: 2 shows/1 day


I plan on following The Magpie Salute all thru the Bay Area. (Sept 7 thru 12)

BUT, knowing the Crowes like I do, that would be too easy to pin the tail on daspy....I've nailed so many "sweet spot" Crowes recordings, it's ridiculous. shit, my tapes hit etree, 20 years after the fact, and nearly 300 pulls if not more than that on all of them just there (and that was *after* Weber whored them out).

and another couple hundred on dime and TTD.

SOOOOOOO, Mavis Staples is playing a brewery in Petaluma, 4:20 till 9:00pm....THEN Steve Winwood (with Lilly opening) at 8pm at Luther Burbank in Santa Rosa.

the towns are 18 miles apart.

on "terrorist day" (appros, no?)

I've never seen either *nor* taped at either venue (yeah, I'll go on his home turf, as it's clear he'd never set foot in Alaska)

BONUS points for whoever captures more of the music.


one show is GA (apparently, and possibly with free tickets)

will have to cut my cannabis seed buying expedition short, but that's ok.

just to prove daspy wrong.

thoughts?

are you man enough daspy?

-Steve

[daspyknows]

You must have known when I would be out of town when you picked these dates.  My trip was booked LAST October and has been mentioned on a number of threads.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=179597.msg2218669#msg2218669


Eric Clapton
7:30 PM - Madison Square Garden - New York, NY
Order # 33-31256/NY7
Order Date
Fri, Feb 3, 2017

Eric Clapton
7:30 PM - Madison Square Garden - New York, NY
Order # 36-19193/NY7
Order Date
Fri, Feb 3, 2017

Roger Waters: US + Them
8:00 PM - Barclays Center - Brooklyn, NY
Order # 41-45208/NY1
Order Date
Fri, Oct 21, 2016

Roger Waters: US + Them
8:00 PM - Barclays Center - Brooklyn, NY
Order # 54-29557/NY1
Order Date
Fri, Oct 21, 2016

Seeing Mavis for free THIS weekend and probably seeing Steve Winwood in Reno on Sep 3rd. 

[nak700s]

You must have known when I would be out of town when you picked these dates.  My trip was booked LAST October and has been mentioned on a number of threads.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=179597.msg2218669#msg2218669


Eric Clapton
7:30 PM - Madison Square Garden - New York, NY
Order # 33-31256/NY7
Order Date
Fri, Feb 3, 2017

Eric Clapton
7:30 PM - Madison Square Garden - New York, NY
Order # 36-19193/NY7
Order Date
Fri, Feb 3, 2017

Roger Waters: US + Them
8:00 PM - Barclays Center - Brooklyn, NY
Order # 41-45208/NY1
Order Date
Fri, Oct 21, 2016

Roger Waters: US + Them
8:00 PM - Barclays Center - Brooklyn, NY
Order # 54-29557/NY1
Order Date
Fri, Oct 21, 2016

Seeing Mavis for free THIS weekend and probably seeing Steve Winwood in Reno on Sep 3rd.

Contest aside, I'm glad you'll be at these shows and recording.  Be careful going into Barclay's...metal detectors can be a bitch if you're not prepared for them.  MSG can be tough (also metal detectors), but very doable.  Wish I was able to grab a taping ticket, I'd like to meet up.  Safe travels and best of luck taping!

[daspyknows]

You must have known when I would be out of town when you picked these dates.  My trip was booked LAST October and has been mentioned on a number of threads.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=179597.msg2218669#msg2218669


Eric Clapton
7:30 PM - Madison Square Garden - New York, NY
Order # 33-31256/NY7
Order Date
Fri, Feb 3, 2017

Eric Clapton
7:30 PM - Madison Square Garden - New York, NY
Order # 36-19193/NY7
Order Date
Fri, Feb 3, 2017

Roger Waters: US + Them
8:00 PM - Barclays Center - Brooklyn, NY
Order # 41-45208/NY1
Order Date
Fri, Oct 21, 2016

Roger Waters: US + Them
8:00 PM - Barclays Center - Brooklyn, NY
Order # 54-29557/NY1
Order Date
Fri, Oct 21, 2016

Seeing Mavis for free THIS weekend and probably seeing Steve Winwood in Reno on Sep 3rd.

Contest aside, I'm glad you'll be at these shows and recording.  Be careful going into Barclay's...metal detectors can be a bitch if you're not prepared for them.  MSG can be tough (also metal detectors), but very doable.  Wish I was able to grab a taping ticket, I'd like to meet up.  Safe travels and best of luck taping!

Barclays new for me but have done Madison Square Garden many times.  Last time was David Gilmour.  It's a tough one but I have a method that has worked for me.  We should definitely try and meet up for a beer or two in any event.