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Author Topic: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats  (Read 8198 times)

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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2017, 07:00:03 AM »
a handful of "shitty internal microphone" recordings..... :google of rolleye smilies here:



Peter Mulvey w/ Suitcase Junket in Fairbanks: (*lots* of texture and a beautiful sound):

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=595076


Loudon Wainwright III in Nashville (taped from the back of the room, away from the 'geese'):

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=595385


36 Crazyfists (Alaskan metal band, they're big in Europe, showing that heavy music can be recorded with internals as well):

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=579574


Black Mountain (sounds fine to these ears, or 90% as good as any mic-stand recording would sound...again, from the back of the room. no way to get away from the crowd, as Larimer has low ceilings and is tiny):

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=577828


Guided By Voices (tiny dump in St. Louis, the Sonics source came out too "hot"):

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=570603
-------------
people who are fans of the music, they LOVE what I document and capture...people who are fans of themselves....not so much.

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2017, 09:20:54 AM »
Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.

I respectfully disagree as to the R09. I found the R09HR's internals to be decent, although I only used them for a test recording. I made a test recording with my R09, on the other hand, and was disappointed with the results (even though the band was not too loud and there was no distortion). The recording sounded very "thin" to me. I think that's why Chris Church offered to replace the R09's internals with CA-11's (I had it done-they sounded great and would never distort).  He didn't offer that option with the  HR both because he said it was a harder job to replace them but also because he thought the HR's internals sounded better and replacing them wouldn't improve the sound as much.

A friend that lent me his R-09 had recorded a James Taylor show (Jones Beach Theatre) with the internals before I set him up with real microphones.  No, it wasn't a full-sounding, high quality recording, but it did surprise me and is better than nothing.  By the way, when I say better than nothing, I mean that.  98% of the time, I do not feel that internal mics provide something that is better than nothing.

Yes, the R-09HR improved on the internals over the R-09 in a big way.  In fact, at the time the R-09HR came out, it was the highest rated internals for small machines on the market.  That doesn't mean I'm going to use them...unless of an odd and extreme emergency.

Furburger, I would like to sample your DR-2D recordings, but I'm not willing to start downloading torrents to do so.  Sorry.  Are any of them up on archive where I can stream them?
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2017, 12:07:34 PM »
the internal mics in the R-09 are the worst I've ever used.

the internals on the Tascam DR-2D are nearly as good as external mics, regardless of what the elitists here say.

I have posted many examples, they handle both quiet and loud music *just fine*, as long as you use the lo/med/high gain correctly.


a DR-2D costs a *fraction* of what mics would cost, and will get you a recording 90-95% as good as an external mic setup.

I'll record more proof this weekend, by doing folk rock (Tim Easton), rock (Ben Harper) and metal (36 Crazyfists).


while those who recommend spending money on mics have good intentions, they are dead-ass wrong that they are necessary.

I beg to differ.  Now they are 90-95% as good as a recording made with "elitist mics"?  They were 90% before.  These are not even close in my opinion and the opinion of most tapers on this site. 

If you like them and you think you are making the best possible recording then good for you.   

Offline taperdav

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2017, 08:55:50 PM »
So, should I assume that SP -BMC-2 mics might also not handle the bass from a loud rock concert?  I realize there are much better mics, but thought that these would be okay for rock concerts.

Would the SP-CMC-20 be a step up and would anyone know if they would handle bass? 

Online bombdiggity

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2017, 09:15:33 PM »
So, should I assume that SP -BMC-2 mics might also not handle the bass from a loud rock concert?  I realize there are much better mics, but thought that these would be okay for rock concerts.

Would the SP-CMC-20 be a step up and would anyone know if they would handle bass?

The BMC are binaural omnis.  If crowd noise is a concern those will get relatively more of that.

The factor to examine in this connection with loud shows is the Maximum SPL they can handle.  The higher that number the better.  You will see with SP that they quote that for the mics and the mics with a battery box and perhaps one other configuration I forget.  A battery box increases their ability to deal with volume. 

As far as SP goes I really like the CMC-25's (and have those myself).  They'll stand up to anything and are a good choice for overly loud rock and poor sounding rooms.  They may have changed them since I got mine...  If you get them when they run one of their periodic sales they're not very expensive 9especially for how they perform).  YMMV.  There is a very large price gradient between them of course. 

If you ask SP they're pretty good about explaining what would be best in their lineup based on what you're intending to record and your budget. 

The R-09 does not provide max SPL specs on their site. 

The SP site provides this as: Maximum Input Sound Level

BMC-2 : 105dB/120dB  (105 is too low for a loud show.  The 120 with battery box should cover most situations) 

CMC-25 : 105dB/117dB/130dB

« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 09:22:59 PM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2017, 05:26:17 AM »
Are any of them up on archive where I can stream them?


I'm sure that Dennis has put some up....as Sammy isn't pro taping, search by "Hagar". he's pretty good about listing the lineage.
the internal mics in the R-09 are the worst I've ever used.

the internals on the Tascam DR-2D are nearly as good as external mics, regardless of what the elitists here say.

I have posted many examples, they handle both quiet and loud music *just fine*, as long as you use the lo/med/high gain correctly.


a DR-2D costs a *fraction* of what mics would cost, and will get you a recording 90-95% as good as an external mic setup.

I'll record more proof this weekend, by doing folk rock (Tim Easton), rock (Ben Harper) and metal (36 Crazyfists).


while those who recommend spending money on mics have good intentions, they are dead-ass wrong that they are necessary.

I beg to differ.  Now they are 90-95% as good as a recording made with "elitist mics"?  They were 90% before.  These are not even close in my opinion and the opinion of most tapers on this site. 

If you like them and you think you are making the best possible recording then good for you.   


90% for "heavy" music, and 95% for "softer", or acoustic stuff. (as more texture is audible)

would 92.5% of the time make you feel better?

it's not worth the money to drop the coin on a "rig", as the dollars spent do not match the results obtained (in a nutshell)


-------------
people who are fans of the music, they LOVE what I document and capture...people who are fans of themselves....not so much.

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2017, 10:19:54 AM »
Are any of them up on archive where I can stream them?


I'm sure that Dennis has put some up....as Sammy isn't pro taping, search by "Hagar". he's pretty good about listing the lineage.
the internal mics in the R-09 are the worst I've ever used.

the internals on the Tascam DR-2D are nearly as good as external mics, regardless of what the elitists here say.

I have posted many examples, they handle both quiet and loud music *just fine*, as long as you use the lo/med/high gain correctly.


a DR-2D costs a *fraction* of what mics would cost, and will get you a recording 90-95% as good as an external mic setup.

I'll record more proof this weekend, by doing folk rock (Tim Easton), rock (Ben Harper) and metal (36 Crazyfists).


while those who recommend spending money on mics have good intentions, they are dead-ass wrong that they are necessary.

I beg to differ.  Now they are 90-95% as good as a recording made with "elitist mics"?  They were 90% before.  These are not even close in my opinion and the opinion of most tapers on this site. 

If you like them and you think you are making the best possible recording then good for you.   


90% for "heavy" music, and 95% for "softer", or acoustic stuff. (as more texture is audible)

would 92.5% of the time make you feel better?

it's not worth the money to drop the coin on a "rig", as the dollars spent do not match the results obtained (in a nutshell)

That is your opinion for sure.  If you don't have the dough to spend on gear then you do what you can.  The excuse that you travel to shows doesn't fly because many other tapers (including myself) have put in lots of miles traveling and have passport stamps to prove it.  I just set up a friend (He taped extensively in the 80's)  with a Schoeps rig for about $2,500.  Seems like a small price to pay for recordings that are sweet to the ears versus recordings that make me want to turn off the stereo.

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2017, 02:55:16 PM »
Not everyone has an ear for hi fidelity, and therefore won't hear what another person who does have an ear for a higher quality sound hears.  Just sayin'.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Online bombdiggity

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2017, 06:35:34 PM »
Not everyone has an ear for hi fidelity

That. 

And just about anyone rationalizes/justifies what they use as optimal because that's human nature. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2017, 06:57:39 PM »
 :cheers:
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Online Gutbucket

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2017, 07:27:40 PM »
Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.

I respectfully disagree as to the R09. I found the R09HR's internals to be decent, although I only used them for a test recording. I made a test recording with my R09, on the other hand, and was disappointed with the results (even though the band was not too loud and there was no distortion). The recording sounded very "thin" to me. I think that's why Chris Church offered to replace the R09's internals with CA-11's (I had it done-they sounded great and would never distort).  He didn't offer that option with the  HR both because he said it was a harder job to replace them but also because he thought the HR's internals sounded better and replacing them wouldn't improve the sound as much.

You had CA-11's replacing the internals in your R09?   If so, why?

Em, Eye, See, Kay, E, Why..

Church Audio R-09 "Micsketeers" microphone modificaiton



Em, Oh, You, Ess, E
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2017, 12:33:10 AM »
Although the R-09 is a good recorder, is it possible there is something wrong with it?  Test it out under different conditions and find out.  I've used one for awhile and thought it was a good machine (just too small of a screen for me).  I like the R-09HR myself (but it has a bigger screen and a few improvements over its predecessor).  The internals on both are great...if you're recording yourself playing a guitar in your bedroom, and if the stars align, in a live acoustic setting, or not too loud of a concert, but the low end suffers dearly.

I respectfully disagree as to the R09. I found the R09HR's internals to be decent, although I only used them for a test recording. I made a test recording with my R09, on the other hand, and was disappointed with the results (even though the band was not too loud and there was no distortion). The recording sounded very "thin" to me. I think that's why Chris Church offered to replace the R09's internals with CA-11's (I had it done-they sounded great and would never distort).  He didn't offer that option with the  HR both because he said it was a harder job to replace them but also because he thought the HR's internals sounded better and replacing them wouldn't improve the sound as much.

You had CA-11's replacing the internals in your R09?   If so, why?

Em, Eye, See, Kay, E, Why..

Church Audio R-09 "Micsketeers" microphone modificaiton



Em, Oh, You, Ess, E

It is kind of cute.   :yack: :yack: :yack: 

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2017, 09:06:38 AM »
Looks like mouse ears...but totally pointless.  :tomato:
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2017, 11:32:23 AM »
Are any of them up on archive where I can stream them?


I'm sure that Dennis has put some up....as Sammy isn't pro taping, search by "Hagar". he's pretty good about listing the lineage.
the internal mics in the R-09 are the worst I've ever used.

the internals on the Tascam DR-2D are nearly as good as external mics, regardless of what the elitists here say.

I have posted many examples, they handle both quiet and loud music *just fine*, as long as you use the lo/med/high gain correctly.


a DR-2D costs a *fraction* of what mics would cost, and will get you a recording 90-95% as good as an external mic setup.

I'll record more proof this weekend, by doing folk rock (Tim Easton), rock (Ben Harper) and metal (36 Crazyfists).


while those who recommend spending money on mics have good intentions, they are dead-ass wrong that they are necessary.

I beg to differ.  Now they are 90-95% as good as a recording made with "elitist mics"?  They were 90% before.  These are not even close in my opinion and the opinion of most tapers on this site. 

If you like them and you think you are making the best possible recording then good for you.   


90% for "heavy" music, and 95% for "softer", or acoustic stuff. (as more texture is audible)

would 92.5% of the time make you feel better?

it's not worth the money to drop the coin on a "rig", as the dollars spent do not match the results obtained (in a nutshell)

That is your opinion for sure.  If you don't have the dough to spend on gear then you do what you can.  The excuse that you travel to shows doesn't fly because many other tapers (including myself) have put in lots of miles traveling and have passport stamps to prove it.  I just set up a friend (He taped extensively in the 80's)  with a Schoeps rig for about $2,500.  Seems like a small price to pay for recordings that are sweet to the ears versus recordings that make me want to turn off the stereo.


I grow weed and would rather spend my money on flying hotties up from the States (one is arriving from Indiana this week).

because I'm good looking and chicks dig me.

your recordings are not "sweet to the ears", whoever told you that is most definitely a fluffer.


Ben Harper, other than the 'geese' for 20 minutes of the quieter songs and the dude I almost knocked out, is absolutely sublime. right up there with my best.

even though Mooses Tooth *totally* changed their configuration

put 1400 miles on a rental car in under 72 hours, and blew a few hundred along the way.

have ***FIVE*** more taping trips planned before the end of Sept, that will cost $8-10K between plane tickets, show tickets, car rentals, food and games (I have countless friends nationwide, so places to stay for most of it saves money there)

once the hippy lettuce farm gets up and running (we're legal up here), pretty sure I'll be making more in 3 months than you make in a year.


and I still won't buy overpriced, overrated microphones.

I ***get it***, you're one of these cornholes:

When I taped Gov't Mule back in the day with my Neumann rig, the tapers with their rigs were the biggest assholes that thought their gear was the best and they knew it all about mic placement and gain settings, etc.  Everyone at the time was checking the serial numbers on the Lunatecs to see who had the lowest serial number.  Mine was like #9 and I could care less, but it was a big deal to these idiots.


and that's fine.


but telling people that your path is the only way to satisfaction is utter bullshit.

#anditSHOWS


-------------
people who are fans of the music, they LOVE what I document and capture...people who are fans of themselves....not so much.

Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2017, 11:34:36 AM »
Not everyone has an ear for hi fidelity, and therefore won't hear what another person who does have an ear for a higher quality sound hears.  Just sayin'.


aaaaaaaaaaand I tested "off the charts" in grade school and have been wearing earplugs at nearly every show since age 20.


still have 20/20 vision at age 45, and also took the 1st half of 2nd grade/last half of 3rd (how many kids do you know who skip a grade mid-year)


#jusssayin (sic)  (yes, I'm aware that "sic" is only used to 'quote someone elses misuse', which I think applies here)
-------------
people who are fans of the music, they LOVE what I document and capture...people who are fans of themselves....not so much.

 

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