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Author Topic: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats  (Read 7729 times)

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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2017, 05:03:28 PM »

Impressive, you have learned how to access the internet and upload a torrent.  Brilliant.  How about something a bit more complicated that that.   :iamwithstupid:


within 2 years, I'll most likely be creating multi-cam dvds with synced audio from my masters...more than half tripod-shot (not "blair-witch-everyone-with-an-i-phone-thinks-they're-a-filmer" bullshit).  almost always 3 cameras, including a nice Hi8, shot in 16:9, with all the cool and fuzzy filters.


and you'll still be a guy who pissed off his whole family to the point of desertion .....audio taping shows across the world with your "friends", as money and taping are more important than family.


we get it. you're a real catch. thanks for sharing.
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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2017, 05:08:12 PM »

Enough of this, you are too stupid for your own good.  Sure glad you haven't reproduced.  Time for you to try and get that  GED before its too late.   :iamwithstupid:


Im'a pretty good at math, and by my estimation, my Ben Harper will have more snatches than yours before you take your Lunesta before betime.


less than 24 hours, more pulls than yours got in 2 months.


get real with yourself cupcake.....your tapes aren't all you fluff them up to be....


and, as always, it shows.




gonna check out the internals Ben here soon (except the hottie (she works at a bank, far from trailerish) gets here at 2am, so it might be a week from now, HA!), it may be better than Daspys as well.


now THAT would be funny.


daspy, when was the last time a *woman* was willing to fly to you and hang out in your environment?

just curious, based on what you've said previously, I'd guess a good long while


back on topic: internal mics ARE a viable taping alternative, ***if*** you use the correct deck (I almost feel like the Chewley's gum guy on Clerks, minus the horrific death)
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Offline morst

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2017, 10:59:36 PM »
Horns might be more efficient and thus provide more sound but "better" is in the ear of the beholder.

Thus this thread.

 :clapping:


your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).
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Offline furburger

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2017, 12:37:58 AM »
Horns might be more efficient and thus provide more sound but "better" is in the ear of the beholder.

Thus this thread.

 :clapping:


your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).

I've heard $20K cone-mid speakers next to ones with horns, and they use horns in PA's for a reason.

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2017, 09:52:58 AM »
For those looking and not wanting to sift through the entire back and forth between daspy and furry, here are the two recordings they've provided.  Both daspy and furry are very opinionated, but you all should decide for yourselves.  Personally, I have a very strong preference for one over the other -- and find the 'other' painful to listen to for more than a short sample -- but everyone should decide individually which they prefer:

https://we.tl/hnxhnrM8h9
https://we.tl/eKlmn3vcjq

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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2017, 10:08:32 AM »
For those looking and not wanting to sift through the entire back and forth between daspy and furry, here are the two recordings they've provided.

Thank you! Very helpful. I'm almost dying of curiosity but I can't download them until I get back home from vacation (Sunday). I hope the links are still active then.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 10:10:13 AM by TheMetalist »
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2017, 11:37:59 AM »
For those looking and not wanting to sift through the entire back and forth between daspy and furry, here are the two recordings they've provided.  Both daspy and furry are very opinionated, but you all should decide for yourselves.  Personally, I have a very strong preference for one over the other -- and find the 'other' painful to listen to for more than a short sample -- but everyone should decide individually which they prefer:

https://we.tl/hnxhnrM8h9
https://we.tl/eKlmn3vcjq


For those on Dime  here are a few more BHIC shows recorded at a variety of venues.  As far as a comp venue I would suggest Mt. Winery. Bottlerock was the LAST recording made and only one available on my WeTransfer Account.  A number more are available upon request and there are more shows on the schedule. 


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=576746

Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
Seaside Stage
Del Mar Racetrack
Del Mar, Ca
November 12, 2016

Recorded from left side of center rail appx30 feet from stage
Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=569812
Ben Harper and the Innocent Criminals
Fox Theater
Oakland, Ca
August 17, 2016

Recorded by Daspyknows
Dead center first drink rail

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=569335
Ben Harper and the Innocent Criminals
Mt. Winery
Saratoga, Ca
San Francisco, Ca
August 16, 2016

Recorded by Daspyknows
Section 3 Row D just off center (16th row)

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=558744
Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
Fillmore
Philadelphia Pa
April 10,2016

Recorded by Daspyknows
Dead Center appx 40 feet from stage


Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K


http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=558374
Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
Beacon Theater
New York, NY
April 7,2016

Recorded by Daspyknows

Loge Row A Seat 34

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id= 558344
Ben Harper & The Innocent Criminals
College Street Music Hall
New Haven, Ct
April 6,2016

Recorded by Daspyknows

First Drink Rail Right Side of Center Aisle

Schoeps MK4/NBox Platinum Tascam DR-2D 24 Bit 48K


Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2017, 12:27:52 PM »
taperdav, you still around?  Wondering if you'll ever dare ask another question at TS after the row this one stirred up!

I strive to capture the moment the way it is presented, not with various whistles and bells designed to alter the sound as we are hearing it in the audience.

Hey Nak, I always enjoy hearing about what motivates tapers to record, and differences in philosophy about doing so.  Mind if I dig a bit and ask a few questions?

I think I understand your stated goal laid out in the first half of that statement.  I take it to mean aiming for reproducing the aural experience you had at the live event, in such a way that the listener can close their eyes and imagine themselves standing were you were when you recorded it.  Is that a fair assessment?  What I'm curious about is the second half of that statement.  Can you flesh out the whistles and bells a bit for me?

Happy to clarify:
In a word, yes.  My personal goal is as you described.  I want to relive the live concert experience when I listen to the recording, as I would hope another listener would be able to feel the same.
As for the whistles and bells, I was referring to the competition.  All things being equal...in my eyes (umm, or ears), would be not enhancing the recording from the sound the equipment produces.  In other words, a simple, straight forward recording, and not altered in post production.
Hope that clears up my thought process, I know I often don't convey my ideas well in print.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2017, 12:57:07 PM »
I couldn't care less about your feud about who makes more money, who gets more ass or who the better father is, but I was curious enough to take the time to download both of your offerings and sample them both.  All I care about is what sounds better.

The first problem I hear here is that one of you is posting apples and the other is posting oranges.  Get it together and make it a fair competition.   Here's what I'd like to see: Decide on a recording situation that you either both have or are willing to do...and be honest.  Both  recordings need to be either inside (decide on the size and type of the venue) or outside (decide on the size and type of venue).  Next is positioning.  One of you at 20 feet and the other at 75 feet isn't a fair test.

Additionally, you both need to supply an anal report, so we know what we're listening to.  I forgot who's was who's, and don't care, but the one labeled BHIC... had the anal report attached, the one labeled DR0000... did not.  I will refer to those labels going forward.

I listened to both at various points during the recordings in the same manner (maintaining the same volume and listening through Sennheiser HD380 Pro headphones).  Like I indicated above, both recording situations were far to different to make a fair comparison on the equipment used to record it.  I could easily draw a conclusion from what I've heard, but it means nothing because of positioning and environment.  Granted, there will never be a truly fair comparison until both rigs are in the same 1 square foot footprint recording the same thing, but since you two would probably kill each other if in the same proximity, that isn't going to be possible.  Given that you are both overloaded with cash, however, I would propose that you get together in a legal taping situation and do just that in order to settle this once and for all.

I know you are both interested in my opinion, since I gave both recordings a listen, and I will reluctantly give it to you, but not without further explaining that the venue, environment and position means EVERYTHING when comparing sound, and NONE of those things were aligned with these particular recordings.  Got that?  I mean, do you both truly understand that?
That being said, I found the presence of the DR0000 to be very raw and vibrant, while the BHIC was more natural and pleasing to the ear.  Two VERY different kinds of sound, and both subject to personal taste.  BHIC, unless it was something else, try not to touch the cables or allow them to be knocked around...or handle the deck.  I believe I heard more handling noise that I prefer.  DR0000, did you have a low cut on?  You need more bottom end tones.  AGAIN...these are NOT fair comparisons.  Get it together and try again.  If you can't be in the same place at the same time, I would suggest choosing a band that is consistent in their sound and venue type on the same tour (a good example of that would be Phish at the 13 show MSG run...but be in the same location).  Dead & Company is another good example of consistency in sound.  You need to agree on an arena (size matters), and stadium (size and shape matters) or shed....club...etc.

And for cryin' out loud, try and have fun doing it!

***Incidentally, I have no money (due to a divorce and a vindictive cunt), so if either of you big spenders want to help me pay my bills, I'm not too proud to accept the help***

 :headphones: :cheers: :headphones:


hmmmmm. taping side-by-side, to me, seems asinine, as the entire point of ***stealth*** taping is for the taper to find the best position, according to *their* experiences, and to get the best capture they know how. to tell either taper that they "have" to be in the same section of real estate, thats MIC STAND attitudes right there, and we all know how I feel about those......


you call it "all things being equal", and that's one of my main problems with a mic-stand designation...that you're relegated to 0.05% of the real estate in a venue, which is inherently limiting.

OR, if you really want to do a side-by-side....sure...but you'd also have to make that one weighted (30-40% max), as by telling both tapers to stand next to each other, you're removing a component of the stealth tapers life experience. not allowing them to "do what they do", and instead "you stand here". so a 2nd "do it your way" recording should be weighted more in the 60-70% range. as that would represent the full knowledge of what the taper does, not relegating them mic-stand style.

there's no doubt in my mind that my Ben Harper has much more clarity, oomph, range and "breathes" better than daspy's. his truly sounds like a compressed mess. throw in that I can ***see*** the variations on my EQ, and it makes it very easy to explain the *why*

I'm sure daspy has pulled great tapes in the past (there's your 'compliment', pookie), but his Bottlerock Ben Harper is not one of them.  it's "solid", but if it's an example of his unfettered excellence, then I'm snickering all the way to the bank.


oh yeah, never taped Phish or the Dead, and not about to add ramen to my diet at this stage of the game ;)


overall, you have many fair points.....and I *am* having fun, isn't that kinda obvious? :D

also have been known to sponsor tickets and computers and hard drives and software purchases for folks in the past.

'cuz when you grow the  hippy lettuce as good as my recordings, you suddenly have a LOT more friends who aren't broke.  (been told that mine is better than the shops in town, which is plenty good enough for me)


only 20 less snatches, and it's been barely up 12 hours vs. nearly 2 months.

to be fair, mine is a headline vs. festival set, no, I'm not so dense to think that those are equal either.


I have no interest in joining a war between two tapers that I don't know.  I'm sure both of you are cool people, and would probably be friends with both given face to face encounters...That said, I have to ask what part of "I would propose that you get together in a legal taping situation and do just that in order to settle this once and for all." wasn't clear?  My assumption was that you would both record the way you feel best, but from the same location, eliminating all differences other that equipment and technique.  You can still put your recorder in your pocket or wear Sonic Studio mics on a pair of glasses, if that is the way you feel would give you the best results.  Conversely, daspyknows would record the way he feels best.  Keep in mind, your argument is that you make better recordings and your equipment is just as good as a full rig, therefore, that becomes the only differences in this scenario.  Hence, "all things being equal".  What you are both recording is irrelevant, only that it is the same, under the same conditions.  I suggested those bands, because unlike most, they are consistently the best sound quality.

On a different note, I could use a sponsor till I can get back on my feet  ;)
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2017, 01:27:19 PM »

I listened to 1 song.  As I said, it doesn't completely suck but one song is enough.  Has been deleted, no need to waste space.  I think the issue is your playback.  I don't need to turn it up to 40% to get high enough volume here.  Maybe  if you had a better stereo good recording would sound better,but then again you won't put your money behind it.  I will.  If you think it sounds good that should be good enough for you.  Personally, not impressed.


again, you're not reading what I am saying in a coherent fashion



your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).

mine, while nearly as loud as yours at that level, can continue to be turned up to 80-90% and still sound clean. that means 'not distorted/compressed sounding'.

perhaps you have too many bullshit bells and whistles between your mic and decks when recording, or you don't have decent post-production knowledge.


I master ALL of my stuff with the volume cranked to 80-90%. that's where the warts shine the brightest, and where the worst flaws reside.

WHY?

because anything that sounds stellar with the volume cranked, is going to sound ***even better*** at half-volume.


your recording sounds like it came from the "loudness wars" of the early 00's.....mine sounds straight out of the mid 90's, when shit was still allowed to breathe.

Furburger, you like to site numbers and percentages.  Although it is fun to visually see what we're listening to, I find it's like a word problem, and filter out the crap unnecessary in order to get to the answer, which in this case, is how it sounds.  Ultimately, I like to close my eyes and "be there within the music", but maybe that's just me.  You like mentioning equipment, so I'm sure that you are more than familiar with Sennheiser HD 380 Pro headphones.  I mentioned what I was listening through for a reason.  There is no bass enhancement or any other alterations to tone, just a flat response.  That, in my opinion, is the only true measure to listen to something the way it is originally recorded.  That being the case, "[moving my] bass knob ever so slightly to the right" defeats the purpose of hearing the actual recording the way it was made.  This is also why I proposed no alteration to the sound.  Post production, as we all know, can completely change the sound of the original recording.  I would like to hear raw recordings from both of you without any alterations...from the same spot in the same venue at the same show, and just judge based on equipment and technique. Isn't that, after all, what this whole argument is all about?
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2017, 01:50:11 PM »
As I said before, I am perfectly fine with your proposal nak700 and have expressed my willingness to take the challenge.  Let's cut through the bullshit once and for all.  Throwing stupid numbers and other nonsense out there proves nothing especially when those making the numerical claims don't understand what they are talking about.  I am willing to take the challenge and willing to back it up by putting bread on the table.  No excuses and no deflections of the questions asked.  As we can all see, I am the only one willing to do that.  Number of downloads,  size of flac files and nonsensical pontificating has NOTHING to do with sound quality.  Can we all agree that sound quality (while subjective to a point) is the ultimate goal? 

Straight comparison.  Exceptional internal mics on a DR-2D versus a shitty old pair of Schoeps MK4's and NBox Platinum rig. 

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2017, 01:54:44 PM »
Horns might be more efficient and thus provide more sound but "better" is in the ear of the beholder.

Thus this thread.

 :clapping:


your recording, before the volume knob hits the halfway mark, it becomes a muddy mess. or, it sounds like shit. 

that's with a flat EQ, played back thru a 3000 watt system. 2 1400 watt Crown amps, bridged parallel mono. a couple of 90lb. Yamaha 18" subs. and 2 800w Cerwin-Vega PA speakers with horns (not 'mids', horns do a much better reproduction job than tinny paper speakers).

 :yahoo:
Soooooooo true.  And aren't Cerwin-Vega PA speakers made for quantity, not quality?  That was a question, not a statement.  PA speakers aren't made for hi fidelity, they are made for high volume in bars and clubs.  My speakers are the weakest links in my chain (unfortunately, replacing them at this time isn't a financial option, no matter how much I'd love to!), and I'll still take them over a PA or loudspeaker.  However, like you said,  "better is in the ear of the beholder", and that is the only thing on this thread that can't be disputed.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2017, 02:18:41 PM »
As I said before, I am perfectly fine with your proposal nak700 and have expressed my willingness to take the challenge.  Let's cut through the bullshit once and for all.  Throwing stupid numbers and other nonsense out there proves nothing especially when those making the numerical claims don't understand what they are talking about.  I am willing to take the challenge and willing to back it up by putting bread on the table.  No excuses and no deflections of the questions asked.  As we can all see, I am the only one willing to do that.  Number of downloads,  size of flac files and nonsensical pontificating has NOTHING to do with sound quality.  Can we all agree that sound quality (while subjective to a point) is the ultimate goal? 

Straight comparison.  Exceptional internal mics on a DR-2D versus a shitty old pair of Schoeps MK4's and NBox Platinum rig.

YUP!  I'd really like to hear the direct comparison.  I think it would be great for not only this argument, but the entire community.  Hearing a pair of internals (and maybe Sonics or other mics too), would be a wonderful test.  If actually done, I hope that you would both put up more than one pair of mics, and with no post production, other that raising levels if necessary, we could all hear a variety of different equipment fairly matched against the other.  I only wish I could add my rig to the mix to hear how it holds up.  :wink2:
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2017, 02:40:00 PM »
As I said before, I am perfectly fine with your proposal nak700 and have expressed my willingness to take the challenge.  Let's cut through the bullshit once and for all.  Throwing stupid numbers and other nonsense out there proves nothing especially when those making the numerical claims don't understand what they are talking about.  I am willing to take the challenge and willing to back it up by putting bread on the table.  No excuses and no deflections of the questions asked.  As we can all see, I am the only one willing to do that.  Number of downloads,  size of flac files and nonsensical pontificating has NOTHING to do with sound quality.  Can we all agree that sound quality (while subjective to a point) is the ultimate goal? 

Straight comparison.  Exceptional internal mics on a DR-2D versus a shitty old pair of Schoeps MK4's and NBox Platinum rig.

YUP!  I'd really like to hear the direct comparison.  I think it would be great for not only this argument, but the entire community.  Hearing a pair of internals (and maybe Sonics or other mics too), would be a wonderful test.  If actually done, I hope that you would both put up more than one pair of mics, and with no post production, other that raising levels if necessary, we could all hear a variety of different equipment fairly matched against the other.  I only wish I could add my rig to the mix to hear how it holds up.  :wink2:

I am more than willing as I said.  I have a pair of MK4's and MK41's but my son's CA-14 cardiods are also here and he could run those if its music he likes.   

Offline nak700s

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Re: Edirol R-09 internal mics distorting bass drum beats
« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2017, 02:50:37 PM »
As I said before, I am perfectly fine with your proposal nak700 and have expressed my willingness to take the challenge.  Let's cut through the bullshit once and for all.  Throwing stupid numbers and other nonsense out there proves nothing especially when those making the numerical claims don't understand what they are talking about.  I am willing to take the challenge and willing to back it up by putting bread on the table.  No excuses and no deflections of the questions asked.  As we can all see, I am the only one willing to do that.  Number of downloads,  size of flac files and nonsensical pontificating has NOTHING to do with sound quality.  Can we all agree that sound quality (while subjective to a point) is the ultimate goal? 

Straight comparison.  Exceptional internal mics on a DR-2D versus a shitty old pair of Schoeps MK4's and NBox Platinum rig.

YUP!  I'd really like to hear the direct comparison.  I think it would be great for not only this argument, but the entire community.  Hearing a pair of internals (and maybe Sonics or other mics too), would be a wonderful test.  If actually done, I hope that you would both put up more than one pair of mics, and with no post production, other that raising levels if necessary, we could all hear a variety of different equipment fairly matched against the other.  I only wish I could add my rig to the mix to hear how it holds up.  :wink2:

I am more than willing as I said.  I have a pair of MK4's and MK41's but my son's CA-14 cardiods are also here and he could run those if its music he likes.   

That would be awesome!  I'd love to hear the CA-14's (cardiods) up against the internals and Sonics.  I have Sonics that I no longer use at all, and hardly use internals even in an emergency, but I do use my CA-14's for stealth shows and would like to hear them compared to the Tascam internals.  I am fond of doing tests like this, because it's the only true way to compare mics and equipment. and have run the CA-14's side by side with the Naks.  OK, there's virtually no comparison there, but the CA-14's aren't bad, and or stealth situations, I find they are excellent.
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

 

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