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Offline Charlie Miller

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Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« on: September 06, 2017, 08:03:50 PM »
I have about 50 Hi-8 masters that need to be transferred. What is the best way for me to do this? Rob Eaton offered to transfer the tapes but his deck's firewire output crapped out. I need to get these transferred and also capture the audio in the highest quality possible. I figured I could take an analog audio out and go from there.

Any input is appreciated
Audio Engineer - Steve Kimock Productions


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Offline beatkilla

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2017, 08:24:48 PM »
Do you have the Hi 8 deck?

I have the rest of the chain but no Hi 8 deck.

PM me with details .

Offline beatkilla

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2017, 09:03:57 PM »
You don't want to go analog out you need to digitize these thru something like a Canopus standalone or a Sony mini dv deck or cam that has ADC pass thru.All of these methods need FireWire and you'll need WinDv or similar capture program on your computer....look out for dropped frames .

Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2017, 09:10:26 PM »
Do you have the Hi 8 deck?

I have the rest of the chain but no Hi 8 deck.

PM me with details .

I have nothing but the tapes. The analog out part was just about the audio. If the audio can be captured digitally, that would be great. But yeah, the video part is important too.
Audio Engineer - Steve Kimock Productions


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Offline beatkilla

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2017, 09:34:07 PM »
http://videotransferboston.com/8mm-hi8-and-digital8/



Information about the three 8mm formats....it's possible these may be digital 8

Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2017, 09:36:17 PM »
http://videotransferboston.com/8mm-hi8-and-digital8/



Information about the three 8mm formats....it's possible these may be digital 8

Thanks but that would cost over $1,000, unless I misread it.
Audio Engineer - Steve Kimock Productions


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Offline ilduclo

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2017, 08:58:13 AM »
Bunch of decent camcorders on eBay for around 50$  :shrug:

Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2017, 11:01:18 AM »
Bunch of decent camcorders on eBay for around 50$  :shrug:

Yeah I saw that. Thing is I know nothing about video and don't know what I need.
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2017, 12:43:24 PM »
Video 8/Hi-8/Digital 8 are very sensitive on playback, especially as they age.  The sound quality and picture quality can vary dramatically depending on the player used to play them back.  The tracking is also very delicate so some tapes don't play well in some (or even most) machines. 

To do it right is time consuming and often trial and error even with good machines.  The stand alone Sony players are the best but there's a lot of variation among them.  The more expensive ones definitely give better results but due to the iterations in development of the original technology not all tapes play best on any one generation of machine IME. 

I'm not sure camcorder playback is too good an idea unless its the same one they were recorded on. 

Good luck.  If they're really of value and worth doing right it's a big project. 
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Offline rigpimp

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2017, 04:38:59 PM »
Charlie, give me a call.  I have a buddy that that has a Canopus and a Sony HI8

Keith
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Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2017, 04:46:00 PM »
Video 8/Hi-8/Digital 8 are very sensitive on playback, especially as they age.  The sound quality and picture quality can vary dramatically depending on the player used to play them back.  The tracking is also very delicate so some tapes don't play well in some (or even most) machines. 

To do it right is time consuming and often trial and error even with good machines.  The stand alone Sony players are the best but there's a lot of variation among them.  The more expensive ones definitely give better results but due to the iterations in development of the original technology not all tapes play best on any one generation of machine IME. 

I'm not sure camcorder playback is too good an idea unless its the same one they were recorded on. 

Good luck.  If they're really of value and worth doing right it's a big project. 

Good to know. Thanks
Audio Engineer - Steve Kimock Productions


Schoeps CMC6/MK4 -> Lunatec V2 ->  Sound Devices 744T

Offline guitard

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2017, 06:54:51 PM »
Video 8/Hi-8/Digital 8 are very sensitive on playback, especially as they age.  The sound quality and picture quality can vary dramatically depending on the player used to play them back.  The tracking is also very delicate so some tapes don't play well in some (or even most) machines. 

To do it right is time consuming and often trial and error even with good machines.  The stand alone Sony players are the best but there's a lot of variation among them.  The more expensive ones definitely give better results but due to the iterations in development of the original technology not all tapes play best on any one generation of machine IME. 

I'm not sure camcorder playback is too good an idea unless its the same one they were recorded on. 

Good luck.  If they're really of value and worth doing right it's a big project.

I am in the process of transferring and authoring to DVD thousands of tapes for a guy who started filming shows back in the 1980s (and is still regularly filming shows now but switched away from 8mm when mini-DV became available and shoots in HD now).  I have captured around 500 shows from 8mm tapes (all three varieties) so far using two cameras (Sony DCR-TRV350 Digital8 & Sony DCR-TRV730 Digital8).  I go straight from the camera via firewire to a firewire card in my work station capturing with Sony Vegas Video Pro 13.  I can't remember the last time I had a dropped frame - it's extremely rare.  The three videocams he shot with on 8mm were Ricoh R-600 (same specs as Sony CCD-V5), Sony TR-101 Hi8, and Sony TR-5.

One thing I always do is rewind/fast forward the tapes from end to end before I capture them since 99% of the time they have sat untouched since the time they were recorded.  I do that with a Kinyo 2-Way 8mm Tape Rewinder to save wear and tear on my video cams.
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Offline yug du nord

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2017, 11:02:27 PM »
^holy nuts.  nice effort man!   :coolguy:
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2017, 11:09:44 PM »
Video 8/Hi-8/Digital 8 are very sensitive on playback, especially as they age.  The sound quality and picture quality can vary dramatically depending on the player used to play them back.  The tracking is also very delicate so some tapes don't play well in some (or even most) machines. 

To do it right is time consuming and often trial and error even with good machines.  The stand alone Sony players are the best but there's a lot of variation among them.  The more expensive ones definitely give better results but due to the iterations in development of the original technology not all tapes play best on any one generation of machine IME. 

I'm not sure camcorder playback is too good an idea unless its the same one they were recorded on. 

Good luck.  If they're really of value and worth doing right it's a big project.

I am in the process of transferring and authoring to DVD thousands of tapes for a guy who started filming shows back in the 1980s (and is still regularly filming shows now but switched away from 8mm when mini-DV became available and shoots in HD now).  I have captured around 500 shows from 8mm tapes (all three varieties) so far using two cameras (Sony DCR-TRV350 Digital8 & Sony DCR-TRV730 Digital8).  I go straight from the camera via firewire to a firewire card in my work station capturing with Sony Vegas Video Pro 13.  I can't remember the last time I had a dropped frame - it's extremely rare.  The three videocams he shot with on 8mm were Ricoh R-600 (same specs as Sony CCD-V5), Sony TR-101 Hi8, and Sony TR-5.

One thing I always do is rewind/fast forward the tapes from end to end before I capture them since 99% of the time they have sat untouched since the time they were recorded.  I do that with a Kinyo 2-Way 8mm Tape Rewinder to save wear and tear on my video cams.

right on!!
Audio Engineer - Steve Kimock Productions


Schoeps CMC6/MK4 -> Lunatec V2 ->  Sound Devices 744T

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2017, 02:48:38 AM »
I am in the process of transferring and authoring to DVD thousands of tapes for a guy who started filming shows back in the 1980s (and is still regularly filming shows now but switched away from 8mm when mini-DV became available and shoots in HD now).  I have captured around 500 shows from 8mm tapes (all three varieties) so far using two cameras (Sony DCR-TRV350 Digital8 & Sony DCR-TRV730 Digital8).  I go straight from the camera via firewire to a firewire card in my work station capturing with Sony Vegas Video Pro 13.  I can't remember the last time I had a dropped frame - it's extremely rare.  The three videocams he shot with on 8mm were Ricoh R-600 (same specs as Sony CCD-V5), Sony TR-101 Hi8, and Sony TR-5.

One thing I always do is rewind/fast forward the tapes from end to end before I capture them since 99% of the time they have sat untouched since the time they were recorded.  I do that with a Kinyo 2-Way 8mm Tape Rewinder to save wear and tear on my video cams.

Cool.  That's nice it's working well. 

I've got thousands more and not really the patience/time/discipline if you're game after those are done.
 
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Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
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Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
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Offline nomotrouble

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2017, 09:49:08 AM »
I have also transferred 35 old tapes to digital. Think i still have the old camera in the box with the tapes. It takes awhile but it's straight forward. I would guess your best bet is to purchase a camcorder on ebay and try it yourself. Really rewarding to have digital copies. I transferred all of our old baby videos, my adult kids just love them now.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2017, 04:28:21 PM »
I forget the Sony Camcorder model number that I used, but all I've ever done is transfer the hi-8 tape from the camcorder to my PC over firewire.  Would there be much room for improvement transferring the video over a canopus or other similar setup.  I've always assumed that the transfer from the camcorder was pretty much as good as it was likely to get because the original recordings just weren't that great to start with, but am I being mistaken?

Offline guitard

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2017, 04:32:01 AM »
I forget the Sony Camcorder model number that I used, but all I've ever done is transfer the hi-8 tape from the camcorder to my PC over firewire.  Would there be much room for improvement transferring the video over a canopus or other similar setup.  I've always assumed that the transfer from the camcorder was pretty much as good as it was likely to get because the original recordings just weren't that great to start with, but am I being mistaken?

I've used both methods quite a bit and have never noticed any difference.  Having said that - going straight from the video cam to the computer via firewire (known as analog to digital pass-through) only requires one connection (the firewire cable).  Going from a videocam to the Canopus requires RCA cables, and then from the Canopus to the computer requires a firewire.  So it stands to reason that you're increasing your chances for problems to occur if you use a set up that requires two connections vs one connection.

And on a related note - if you're in the market for a used digital 8mm cam that has analog to digital pass-through - be aware - some have it and some don't.  And there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of rhyme or reason in terms of some model numbers in a series having it and others not having it, i.e., the DCR-TRV 240 has it, the DCR-TRV 260 may not have it, but the DCR-TRV 280 has it.  Unless you already know for a fact that a particular model number has it, make sure you ask the person selling the cam if it has analog to digital pass-through.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2017, 03:58:52 PM »
Thanks.

Offline andante

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2017, 09:46:07 AM »
I forget the Sony Camcorder model number that I used, but all I've ever done is transfer the hi-8 tape from the camcorder to my PC over firewire.  Would there be much room for improvement transferring the video over a canopus or other similar setup.  I've always assumed that the transfer from the camcorder was pretty much as good as it was likely to get because the original recordings just weren't that great to start with, but am I being mistaken?

I've used both methods quite a bit and have never noticed any difference.  Having said that - going straight from the video cam to the computer via firewire (known as analog to digital pass-through) only requires one connection (the firewire cable).  Going from a videocam to the Canopus requires RCA cables, and then from the Canopus to the computer requires a firewire.  So it stands to reason that you're increasing your chances for problems to occur if you use a set up that requires two connections vs one connection.


I'm very interested in this topic because I've just inherited about 40 8mm videocam tapes to convert for viewing on computer.

So far in my researching I've learned that the analog-to-digital pass through method encodes your old video8 & Hi* tapes (in real time) to a lossy DV (Digital8) format for export which unfortunately discards much of the color information especially for NTSC tapes (4.1.1):

Color Subsampling, or What is 4:4:4 or 4:2:2??
http://blogs.adobe.com/VideoRoad/2010/06/color_subsampling_or_what_is_4.html   

Since most of the tapes I have are in excellent condition I think it is worth the extra effort to preserve the colors.  I went ahead and bought one of those tiny USB capture devices (Diamond VC500) and am in the process of setting up a computer for capturing.

And on a related note - if you're in the market for a used digital 8mm cam that has analog to digital pass-through - be aware - some have it and some don't.  And there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of rhyme or reason in terms of some model numbers in a series having it and others not having it, i.e., the DCR-TRV 240 has it, the DCR-TRV 260 may not have it, but the DCR-TRV 280 has it.  Unless you already know for a fact that a particular model number has it, make sure you ask the person selling the cam if it has analog to digital pass-through.


This guy put together an extensive list of Camera's that have firewire ports that will encode and export analog Video8 and Hi8 tapes to DV (Digital8) via the firewire port:

Digitizing Video8 and Hi8 recordings
https://tdb0.wordpress.com/2015/01/31/digitizing-video8-and-hi8-recordings/

These two forums have tons of information:
https://forum.videohelp.com/
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/

Offline guitard

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2017, 10:21:45 PM »
So far in my researching I've learned that the analog-to-digital pass through method encodes your old video 8 & Hi8 tapes (in real time) to a lossy DV (Digital8) format for export which unfortunately discards much of the color information especially for NTSC tapes (4.1.1):

I don't think the analog-to-digital pass through encodes video - it just captures the raw analog video from the tape and converts it to digital.  And DV is as you said - a lossy format.  But that's all you're going to be able to get off of a regular 8mm tape.  It is possible to artificially bloat it out to uncompressed video after you capture it, but that's like taking an mp3 and saving it as a wave file.  Compressed digital video you capture from an 8mm tape is around 13GBs per hour of video.  Where as uncompressed digital video is much, much larger.  It's really only used in movie studios and it's something like 33GB per minute of video.

So don't worry about losing color in the capture process - because it's already lost.
Mics: CA-11 (omnis and cards) & AT853 cards
Pre: CA-9100
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Video: Sony FDR AX100 (4k), Sony DSC HX50V
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A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 13.0 (build 453) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2017, 10:12:32 AM »
So far in my researching I've learned that the analog-to-digital pass through method encodes your old video 8 & Hi8 tapes (in real time) to a lossy DV (Digital8) format for export which unfortunately discards much of the color information especially for NTSC tapes (4.1.1):

I don't think the analog-to-digital pass through encodes video - it just captures the raw analog video from the tape and converts it to digital.  And DV is as you said - a lossy format.  But that's all you're going to be able to get off of a regular 8mm tape.  It is possible to artificially bloat it out to uncompressed video after you capture it, but that's like taking an mp3 and saving it as a wave file.  Compressed digital video you capture from an 8mm tape is around 13GBs per hour of video.  Where as uncompressed digital video is much, much larger.  It's really only used in movie studios and it's something like 33GB per minute of video.

So don't worry about losing color in the capture process - because it's already lost.

Yeah I was wondering about that. Why would adding an analog step in the digital transfer make it better? Thanks for clarifying
Audio Engineer - Steve Kimock Productions


Schoeps CMC6/MK4 -> Lunatec V2 ->  Sound Devices 744T

Offline andante

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2017, 10:50:36 AM »
So far in my researching I've learned that the analog-to-digital pass through method encodes your old video 8 & Hi8 tapes (in real time) to a lossy DV (Digital8) format for export which unfortunately discards much of the color information especially for NTSC tapes (4.1.1):

I don't think the analog-to-digital pass through encodes video - it just captures the raw analog video from the tape and converts it to digital.  And DV is as you said - a lossy format.  But that's all you're going to be able to get off of a regular 8mm tape.  It is possible to artificially bloat it out to uncompressed video after you capture it, but that's like taking an mp3 and saving it as a wave file.  Compressed digital video you capture from an 8mm tape is around 13GBs per hour of video.  Where as uncompressed digital video is much, much larger.  It's really only used in movie studios and it's something like 33GB per minute of video.

So don't worry about losing color in the capture process - because it's already lost.

Yeah I was wondering about that. Why would adding an analog step in the digital transfer make it better? Thanks for clarifying

The colors are "already lost" only if your tapes are Digital8.

OP has analog Video8 & Hi8 tapes.

----------------

Digital8 cameras are the ones with firewire ports because it was a new digital format Sony was pushing and they wanted to make it easy for people to transfer Digital8 video to their computer.

Digital8 = lossy DV encoded video
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital8

Understand that the only thing that ever comes out of that firewire port is lossy DV encoded video (easily verified with VLC codec information), which tosses away 75% of the color for each pixel.

(from previous post)
Color Subsampling, or What is 4:4:4 or 4:2:2??
http://blogs.adobe.com/VideoRoad/2010/06/color_subsampling_or_what_is_4.html   


The OP wants to transfer Video8 and Hi8 tapes which are an older analog format which potentially have more color than the newer lossy Digital8/DV format.

For backward compatiblity some Digital8 cameras can also play older analog Video8 and Hi8 tapes.  But Analog Video8 and Hi8 tapes will lose color (see adobe link above) when you transfer using the firewire port because the Digital8 camera ENCODES the analog Video8 or Hi8 video to lossy DV/Digital8 for transfer.

Luckily, Digital8 cameras also have the familiar analog composite video and S-video connections for connecting the camera to a TV. 

People who want to preserve the colors of their analog Video8 & Hi8 tapes use the S-Video output into a capture card instead of the firewire port.

The analog connections preserve all of the color of analog tapes when capturing.

Interestingly, the color of Digital8 taped video coming out of these older analog connections will be limited by the lossy DV codec since Digital8=DV

Offline guitard

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Re: Need Help With Hi-8 Tapes
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2017, 08:29:08 PM »
Luckily, Digital8 cameras also have the familiar analog composite video and S-video connections for connecting the camera to a TV. 

People who want to preserve the colors of their analog Video8 & Hi8 tapes use the S-Video output into a capture card instead of the firewire port.

The analog connections preserve all of the color of analog tapes when capturing.

I've done it both ways many hundreds of times and don't see any difference at all in the colors.
Mics: CA-11 (omnis and cards) & AT853 cards
Pre: CA-9100
Deck: Edirol R-09HR

Video: Sony FDR AX100 (4k), Sony DSC HX50V
Photo: Canon EOS 60D

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 13.0 (build 453) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

 

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