Topic: Schoeps MK4(1)v users q

[schoeps t00bes]

and i just realized i said i had the 4v's in 99 but it was 00.
the 4's rocked out 99!!!  
dave

[schoeps t00bes]

jeff,
i guess i missed your post originally.  
can you explain how it only measures 15cm/70 degrees???
i am confused.  when i ran it i thought it measured correctly?
thanks,
dave

[JeffK]

OK, just back from happy hour (at 12:30am no less)... but I'll try to explain

the tips of the caps of 4's, 21's, 41's, etc are a bit further out than where the actual diaphrams of the 4V's are.  The diaphrams aren't at the tip of the cap (on the V's), more towards the middle.  That's where i got the 15cm estimate from.  It's just an estimate though, could be closer to 17cm, or furthur away for that matter.

Now, the 70*... if you look at the 110* included angle, and put the caps backwards at 90* from that 110* you get 70* of included angle.  It seems right on the bar, but actually look at the STC bar with caps on it, then put 2 straight edges at 90* (or side pickup, like the V's) and look at what you have.  You can also do this on a peice of paper... just draw out a 110* angle (90* + a lil bit) and then draw 2 lines at 90* from each of them, your included angle will be less than 90* at 70*.

Either way, I like the tapes that are made this way, but I'm thinkin about trying the Vark bar out for some DIN and real ORTF with the 4V's in the near future.

[schoeps t00bes]

thanks jeff!
it's a little tough for me to conceptualize this.  i drew it out on paper, but that didn't help much.  i am still not getting an angle at 70 degrees.  no worries, i will hopefully see you this summer and be able to check it out.  
be well,
dave

[plucks]

OK, just back from happy hour (at 12:30am no less)... but I'll try to explain

the tips of the caps of 4's, 21's, 41's, etc are a bit further out than where the actual diaphrams of the 4V's are.  The diaphrams aren't at the tip of the cap (on the V's), more towards the middle.  That's where i got the 15cm estimate from.  It's just an estimate though, could be closer to 17cm, or furthur away for that matter.

Now, the 70*... if you look at the 110* included angle, and put the caps backwards at 90* from that 110* you get 70* of included angle.  It seems right on the bar, but actually look at the STC bar with caps on it, then put 2 straight edges at 90* (or side pickup, like the V's) and look at what you have.  You can also do this on a peice of paper... just draw out a 110* angle (90* + a lil bit) and then draw 2 lines at 90* from each of them, your included angle will be less than 90* at 70*.

Either way, I like the tapes that are made this way, but I'm thinkin about trying the Vark bar out for some DIN and real ORTF with the 4V's in the near future.

Ok...after talking with Marc about this setup, the conclusion was made that whether or not you use the 4v's or the 4's on the STC bar (This is for ORTF only) you can come out with the same result.  Theoretically, it should pretty much be the same.  The point of "contact," where the sound reaches the capsule, is almost the same.  There may a little difference as far as the 4s being a little farther forward than the v's.  Drawings were made--it sure would be nice to put the paper on the screen-- of the sound coming into the mic, and with the exception of the distance between the 4s pointing "towards" the source and the v's pointing "backwards", the included angle is still 110* the 4v caps.  The casing sizes are different on the 2 caps, but the actual capsules are in about the same place when used on the STC bar.  

Also, I would add that you can still run the v's in the vertical position in the ORTF configuration using a bar like the AKG bar (not only the STC) but you have to make sure to set up the bar correctly.  Thats the time consuming part compared to using the STC bar.  

This isn't supposed to re-iterate information, but hopefully clear up some discussions.  Also, I'm still interested in hearing feedback from anyone who has tried the 4v's vertically and horizontally to determine if there is any distinguishable difference.  

Phil

[hippies]

not to pick on you, Phil, but if Marc has all the answers you want to hear the whole time, then why not just ask him?  isn't he just in the next room or down the hall or something?    

seems to me if Marc diagramed this out for you on paper and all, he should be able to clear up the rest of your 'dilema'.    

happy retailing.

peace

~S

[JeffK]

Hey Phil... if you could, please scan the drawings for me/us on the 4V's backwards on the ortf bar still being a 110* included angle.

I did the math back when I bought the 4V's and STC bar, and thought that it was indeed 110*, but then recently was told to recheck the math to make sure.  This time I came out with the 70* calculation.  I'm still confused and need to find a ruler and actually draw/scan the stuff to be completely happy... although if you guys could scan your drawings/proof then I wouldn't have to
 

[schoeps t00bes]

thanks jeff!  i was getting ready to write the same thing.
i am having trouble visualizing it without the mics in front of me, so a good drawing would do us all some good.
dave

[JeffK]

Also, I would add that you can still run the v's in the vertical position in the ORTF configuration using a bar like the AKG bar (not only the STC) but you have to make sure to set up the bar correctly.  Thats the time consuming part compared to using the STC bar.  

This isn't supposed to re-iterate information, but hopefully clear up some discussions.  Also, I'm still interested in hearing feedback from anyone who has tried the 4v's vertically and horizontally to determine if there is any distinguishable difference.  

Phil

You can also still run ORTF with the actives.  Run a Vark Bar, a pair of Schoeps clips (SGC) made for the CCM series mics and a single A20S shockmount.

I also did some comparisons a long time ago with the 4V's run vertical for a set (ortf) and then another set run on the STC bar.  I couldn't hear any real difference between the two and have since kept with the lazy route of running them on the STC bar

[wboswell]

Jeff has a perfect example of the vark bar + sgc + 4v's in the rig pictures thread.  Here it is again...

[plucks]

Thanks to JeffK and SchoepsT00bes for pushing this issue a bit.  I'm afraid we were having a geometrically challenged moment when we worked up those calculations.  

Fortunately, after speaking with a Schoeps representative, we got things figured out.  Yes, as Jeffk pointed out, it is a 70 degree included angle that results when running the 4v's in the STC (ORTF bar) "backwards."  The distance between the caps. is similar but the angle is different.  

Now, back to the question about running them "backwards" (at the resulting 70 degrees)  vs vertically at a real ORTF (110 degrees)...When run in this configuration, the 4v's aren't a true ORTF, but run on an ORTF bar at a 70 degree angle.  

No sketches needed to solve this one.  

Still, any other 4v users find they like one arrangement better than another (without considering ease of setup)?

Peace,

Phil