Topic: Moving from the stoneage to the space age

[tomy01]

Well this weekend I will be taping my first concert with my new Sony PCM-10 recorder and retiring my Sony walk man (it served me well since the mid-80's).  I am use to taping concerts in 45 min intervals (90 min tapes) which makes it easy to download into my computer and copy easily on to a CD - so the average concert could be 2-3 CD's.  There is a natural break in the recording when the tape runs out and you flip it from side A to side B.  With the PCM you can literally just hit record and the whole concert can be recorded uninterrupted.  After reading the manual not sure what is the best method to create a break in the concert so when I try to download on to a CD it can be done in several files maybe running 45-50 mins in length.

Any suggestions?

Thanks for any help.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

CD Wave.

http://www.milosoftware.com/cdwave/

Just let your recording roll for the entire show. When you dump it on to your computer you can use CD Wave to track it out.

If you want just one long track you can chop it at 75 minutes...or better yet have regular tracks like a normal CD would have and track on each new song.

It does cost $15 (free to try though). You don't have to pay (it will still work)...but I suggest you do. It's a great piece of software and I suspect 99% of folks here that run Windows run CD Wave.

If you're on MAC I think there is another program. xACT, I think. I haven't used a Mac in years so I could be wrong.

[Gutbucket]

^^That's the way to go.  It's very easy to use. 

You can also set most digital recorders to automatically close the current file and start recording a new one (without any gap between them) every time the file currently being recorded reaches a certain size.  I'm not sure what the exact size increments are on the M10, but if you can choose whichever one is just smaller than the capacity of the CDs you burn.  You can then simply burn each entire file to one CD like you are currently doing without any need to chop up the files yourself.

However, you won't have control over exactly when the spit happens, and it may easily happen during the middle of a song.  You'd then need to join the two parts on either side of the split together using some other software.  CD Wave writes new files with the splits where you want them, but it cannot join files together.

[tomy01]

I did read in the PCM-10 manual a function called "track marks" - if I would hit the button, lets say at a 45-50 min spot during a concert or when a song ends - would that add the necessary "gap" I would need to now essentially have two files when I download to my computer and then to two CDs?

[ScoobieKW]

I did read in the PCM-10 manual a function called "track marks" - if I would hit the button, lets say at a 45-50 min spot during a concert or when a song ends - would that add the necessary "gap" I would need to now essentially have two files when I download to my computer and then to two CDs?

No. Track marks are meta data added to the wav file. The music is not split. Many audio editors will recognize them and add markers when you open the file.


I highly recommend CD Wave and a program like Audacity to do more advanced stuff like normalizing, adding fades, trimming encore breaks etc.

[Gutbucket]

Track marks do not add a gap or start a new file, they are only markers added to the current file, which you can use to return to that particular point at a later time.  You can then split the file at that position if you choose to, either in software on the computer or directly on the recorder itself (I'm not certain but I expect the M10 has a file user operated split feature, most digital recorders do). 

So you could add track markers and then split the files at those marker points on the M10 itself, but I expect it will be much easier to do on the computer using CD Wave as Mike suggests, or an audio editor which recognizes the markers like Scoobie suggests.

The feature I was speaking of is a different one which automatically switches to a new file once the current one reaches a certain size while recording.  Most recorders will do that automatically once the file size reaches 2GB, but 2GB is too large for you to burn to CDR without splitting it into 3 separate parts first.  Somewhere there should be a setting which allows you to specify the auto-split at file sizes smaller than 2GB.  I don't use an M10 so I can't tell you where to find that, but another there are many M10 users here on the board and someone will probably post about where to find that function in the recorder's menu.

BTW, I had to chuckle a bit when I saw your thread title.   The space age was 50 years ago and concurrent with the initial development of the Phillips audio cassette tape!  You're moving from the space age to the digital information age.  Most tapers here no longer burn CDRs and simply store the files on hard drives, flash drives and the in the cloud.

[tomy01]

Agree with the "space age" - but in my world having a PCM compared to a Walkman is a "Giant Leap for Mankind".  Especially where I live - Cape Canaveral Florida - home of Kennedy Space Center!!!

[Gutbucket]

Ahh, you're a spacecoaster!  Welcome neighbor, I'm 4 hrs South.

I mostly mentioned the auto file split feature just to let you know that it exists, as one option which would let you keep doing thing more or less the way you have been doing for years, performing a "gapless tape flip" for you every 60 minutes or so, if you wanted to burn those files to CDR as you have been doing all along without having to change your existing workflow.  But that virtual "tape flip" is still going to happen at inopportune times, just far less often and without a forever-lost "flip gap".

You'll be best served by fully shifting to the new era and just letting the recorder run and record one file for the full event you are recording, then storing the resulting WAV files, or the losslessly data compressed version of those files using FLAC.

Using CD WAV you can trim excess from the heads and tails, and chop the single recording file up into individual song files if you like, which makes the recordings far more convenient to listen to and share with others, but you don't have to do that if you are simply storing the raw recordings on several hard drives (or burning DVDR, which can least fit the entire raw files without chopping them up, but like CDR fewer tapers are still using for archiving at this point).  Instead you can go back whenever you have the time and inclination and post-process those stored raw recordings to trim them, fade-in/out, divide into individual songs, tag the files, and do any other processing you care to do such as EQ or whatever.

Welcome to the 21st century!

[tomy01]

Like MIKE B mentioned above just let the recorder go throughout the entire concert.  But what if you are attending a concert where you want to record the opening act as well as the headlining act?  Let's assume the opening act plays for an hour then there is a 45 min intermission then the headliner plays for an 1 1/2 hours.  during the intermission should I hit the STOP or the PAUSE button?  I would assume as soon as the concert starts back up hitting record would start were I let off?

Thanks

[ScoobieKW]

Like MIKE B mentioned above just let the recorder go throughout the entire concert.  But what if you are attending a concert where you want to record the opening act as well as the headlining act?  Let's assume the opening act plays for an hour then there is a 45 min intermission then the headliner plays for an 1 1/2 hours.  during the intermission should I hit the STOP or the PAUSE button?  I would assume as soon as the concert starts back up hitting record would start were I let off?

Thanks

How forgetful, spacey, high or drunk do you get between sets? It only takes missing the show once to make the extra storage space used by running continuously acceptable. When an 48Khz/24bit 2 track is a gig an hour and you can buy 3,000 GB (3TB) drives for $100, storage costs are  3.33 cents for each hour of 48Khz/24 bit stereo files

That said, what I do is stop at end of set, then restart immediately. If a good amount of time passes and the band is clearly not ready, I'll stop and start again.

When I transfer files to my PC, I only grab the files that have show on them.

[stevetoney]

[nulldogmas]

Like MIKE B mentioned above just let the recorder go throughout the entire concert.  But what if you are attending a concert where you want to record the opening act as well as the headlining act?  Let's assume the opening act plays for an hour then there is a 45 min intermission then the headliner plays for an 1 1/2 hours.  during the intermission should I hit the STOP or the PAUSE button?  I would assume as soon as the concert starts back up hitting record would start were I let off?

I just let it run. The M10's battery life is insane, and even 3+ hours isn't all that much space at 24/48, so easier to make one big file and trim away everything that's not music later.

If I do pause I'll usually do PAUSE if only because then the blinky yellow light reminds me that I'm paused, but it doesn't really matter.

[earmonger]

OK, come on. Running the recorder through intermission???

On the PCM-M10, hit the Stop button during the end of the opening act's set. Hit the Record button and then the Pause (to un-pause recording) when the headliner starts. There is no reason to record a WAV file of intermission.
--
Maybe I'm in a minority, but I add track marks from the remote during the show during applause between songs. Then I can go to menu, divide tracks, and have the songs separated before I get home. Obviously if it's a jam band doing transition/medley things I might want to not put that track mark in, but with the PCM M-10 you can also remove--and then reinsert--track marks if you want before you Divide. CDWave is a nice program, but if you just hit that shiny metallic track mark button during applause, you hardly need it. 

[nulldogmas]

OK, come on. Running the recorder through intermission???

On the PCM-M10, hit the Stop button during the end of the opening act's set. Hit the Record button and then the Pause (to un-pause recording) when the headliner starts. There is no reason to record a WAV file of intermission.

There's no reason *not* to record a WAV file of intermission, either. And this way it's less work (pushing a couple a buttons isn't much work, no, but if I have multiple recorders running, it starts to become less trivial), plus fewer chances to screw something up.

[F.O.Bean]

At festies I let my deck run continuously ALL DAY[I've done around 16 hrs a day at Summer Camp/etc many times]. I just put 8x 2300mah Energizer AAs in my VMS[I get 18 hrs that way] and 2x AAs of 2300mah Energizer AAs in my M10[would also get around 18 hours], so I would just "Set it and forget it"! MUCH easier than worrying about stopping/starting between sets on 2 rigs and its MUCH MORE error-proof that way IMO! I would just set levels conservatively during the first acts, and at the END of the day/night/morning lol, usually around 4-6am, I would hit stop and turn everything OFF! Next day repeat haha I got less user errors that way since I wasn't playing around with stuff and hitting stop/record/etc. Just make sure its good to go when I start and I already know the batteries would get me through it all, so MUCH less stress and worrying about it as well! I could go about my day and see the music I wanted to, all while running 2 rigs for 12+ hours each non-stop! I didn't have to rush to get to my gear between sets and it was usually a much more enjoyable time because of it IMO! As always, YMMV

That said, at non-festie shows/regular shows, or where I'm not running 2 separate rigs, I do stop my deck between sets usually.

But with current software and technology, its sooo easy to set it and forget it, and then just trim your sets however you want in post

[aaronji]

OK, come on. Running the recorder through intermission???

On the PCM-M10, hit the Stop button during the end of the opening act's set. Hit the Record button and then the Pause (to un-pause recording) when the headliner starts. There is no reason to record a WAV file of intermission.

There's no reason *not* to record a WAV file of intermission, either. And this way it's less work (pushing a couple a buttons isn't much work, no, but if I have multiple recorders running, it starts to become less trivial), plus fewer chances to screw something up.

Most of the sets I record will fit in a single file (at 24/48).  I would rather start recording at the start of the set than record intermission and have an unnecessary file split.  I also like to keep untouched raw files; I'd rather not waste the storage space.  Yeah, I know, storage is cheap.  Once you start RAIDing everything and backing up off-site, though, it starts to add up.  Personal preference, really...

[tomy01]

SCOOBIEKW"That said, what I do is stop at end of set, then restart immediately. If a good amount of time passes and the band is clearly not ready, I'll stop and start again. "

I did try this method - recorded in file01 - hit stop waited several minutes then hit record - and the original recorded music was overwritten by my new recording?  So I recorded in file01 stopped and resumed in file02 this DID work .  Any suggestions?

[beatkilla]

Its possible file 1 was only in rec/pause mode and never actually recording.

[morst]

if you're not sure about the operation of your new deck, practice at home, recording off your stereo speakers.

[F.O.Bean]

if you're not sure about the operation of your new deck, practice at home, recording off your stereo speakers.

I cant stress this enough!!! I do this at home with every new battery/cable/piece of gear that I get, just to test it out and get a feel for the new gear! That way, you're not doing it for the very first time the night of the show That would solve 90% of us tapers issues and user errors, if we just tested it out at home first, before the show(s) Then, once you get to the show, you can set your rig up quickly and efficiently, since you've done it a few times already

And its the ONLY way to know exactly how far you can push your batteries and to find out exactly how long they'll record for you I just ran my newest PNY AD10400 battery to see how long it'll run my 70d with all 4 channels@24/96! I ran it 3 times and got around 15 hours each time! Now I know that I can reliably run that battery about 12 hours or so when at festies