Topic: battery box or 4.7 low sensitivity mod?

[soulsirkus]

After I bought the Roland R-07 a few months ago, I still haven't bought any external mics, but I want to rectify that now. A friend of mine told me that I don't need a battery box and someone else told me I only need mics with a 4.7 low sensitivity mod. So I have 4 options really:

1. Only external mics with no 4.7 mod.
2. Only external mics with the 4.7 mod.
3. External mics with no 4.7 mod. and a battery box
4. External mics with the 4.7 mode. and a battery box.

I only tape loud shows, mainly (melodic) hard rock and sometimes metal. Which setup would you guys choose to go with the Roland R-07? Thanks in advance for your advice.

[nulldogmas]

Both. You need the battery box to provide enough voltage to get the best performance out of your mics, and you will want low-sensitivity mics to avoid overloading the recorder's preamp.

[heathen]

Ideally, 4.7k modded mics plus the battery box/pre.  I use that setup with metal and it does just fine.  If I had to pick one or the other, I'd probably choose the battery box/pre.  I do know some people have run 4.7k modded mics directly into the R-07 with success (I think Darktrain did a Primus show with this setup...?).

[nulldogmas]

On a related note (and I hope I am not highjacking this topic to too great a degree) but has anybody noted whether 4.7 modded AT853(u) cards are much more sensitive than 4.7 modded CA-14 cards?  I have sets of each and the CA-14s seem far less sensitive than the AT853s (to the tune of 15 dbs) when both are used with Church 9200 pres and M-10s (line in).  Sorry again for the stray thought.   

I have the exact same sets of mics, and haven't noticed this kind of discrepancy.

[unidentified]

Odd. In my case, I get the same levels on the M10 (line in) when I set the Church 9200 pre at 15 dbs for the CA14s and at 0 db for the AT853s.  May as well use a battery box for the AT853s. 

[DavidPuddy]

Here are my suggestions, in order of my least preferable setup to most preferable:

1. 4.7k modded mics
2. 4.7k modded mics with battery box
3. 4.7k modded mics with preamp

I bought a used Church Audio 9100 preamp from the yard sale and it has been perfect for a small setup. Here's my "low-pro" setup:

AT-853 Mics (4.7k modded) > Church Audio 9100 Preamp > Sony PCM-M10

[nulldogmas]

Odd. In my case, I get the same levels on the M10 (line in) when I set the Church 9200 pre at 15 dbs for the CA14s and at 0 db for the AT853s.  May as well use a battery box for the AT853s.

I just last night used the AT853s and CA-14s from the same position, both with battery boxes going into M10s line in with the same gain setting. The resulting levels were exactly the same.

Are you absolutely sure the 853s are modded?

[unidentified]

Wow. Could the mod make that much of a difference in sensitivity across the board? 

[aaronji]

Whether or not you need a battery box or 4.7 k mod depends to an extent on the mics you are going to use.  Some are specifically designed for high SPLs or to operate to spec on low voltages.

[RyanJ]

I love the 4.7k mod mics and no battery box. Smaller setup and especially for stealth, it is great not to have so much stuff to get in to the venue.

Very grateful Darktrain did the mod for my AT853s. The sound is absolutely killer and the mics can handle any sort of SPLs.

[johnmuge]

That's great to hear Sevoflurane. Which deck are you using ? I also picked up a Darktrain set of AT853's and I'm looking to scale down for  .

[Perry]

I love the 4.7k mod mics and no battery box. Smaller setup and especially for stealth, it is great not to have so much stuff to get in to the venue.

Very grateful Darktrain did the mod for my AT853s. The sound is absolutely killer and the mics can handle any sort of SPLs.

I run AT853's (Darktrain 4.7k mod) into the mic input on an M10, no battery box.  The sensitivity is perfect for what I do and the rig is compact. I couldn't be happier considering what I paid.


Open: https://archive.org/details/nma2017-03-29._at853.flac16


Stealth (venue rules): https://archive.org/details/cj2018-07-09.AT853

[ThePiedPiper]

I love the 4.7k mod mics and no battery box. Smaller setup and especially for stealth, it is great not to have so much stuff to get in to the venue.

Very grateful Darktrain did the mod for my AT853s. The sound is absolutely killer and the mics can handle any sort of SPLs.

+1. Same boat. This is by far the best option for me. Simple and fabulous.

[johnmuge]

Great, I'm going to give that a try.

[RyanJ]

That's great to hear Sevoflurane. Which deck are you using ? I also picked up a Darktrain set of AT853's and I'm looking to scale down for  .

I use an M10 and a Tascam DR-05. Both work really well with it. I really love what Robb did to them. Here are some samples of them used with each deck.

M10: http://www.ninlive.com/samples/2017/20171216anonymous.mp3
DR-05: http://www.ninlive.com/samples/2018/20181204timp.mp3

[Gutbucket]

The most prefered option for non-balanced 3-wire electret microphones to which the 4.7kOhm mod applies is to run them the way they were designed to be run - natively in 3-wire mode rather than modified so as to work in 2-wire mode.  As far as I'm aware, this preserves the full specifications of the microphone: The higher SPL handling capability which the 4.7kOhm 2-wire mod is intended for, without the associated reduction in sensitivity and increase in self-noise as necessary trade-off.

The main reasons this arrangement is not used more frequently by tapers is that it's less convenient and less common.  The vast majority of non-balanced gear accommodes 2-wire input (signal+power, ground) microphones rather than 3-wire (power, signal, ground).  For the AT mics in native 3-wire mode this requires either AT phanom-powering adapters that provide a balanced output (some models of which can be powered by a AA battery as well as phantom), or a 3-wire battery box providing a non-balanced output.  Can't run 3-wire mode mics directly into the recorder without a 3-wire input battery box, phantom adapter, or preamp powering them.

Unlike the 4.7kOhm-mod this arrangement will not reduce the microphone's sensitivity.  Microphone output will be correspondingly hotter at any given SPL.

[RyanJ]

Now with Darktrain not doing these mods anymore, who usually does these?

[Humbug]

Hi Gutbucket, I run 3-wire AT mics. Posted a picture a couple of times of the pre-amps I use (PIPsqueak and CA9100).

My impression was that running them 3-wire reduces the sensitivity - the output is quieter (I've always presumed by 12 dB), compared to 2-wire. Of course running 2-wire without the mod causes overloaded recordings too, for amplified rock music.

This is partly why I use the pre-amps to bring up the levels again. Can you please explain in more detail?

[Gutbucket]

Thanks for that clarification Humbug.  I really should have double checked that statement rather than simply saying "as far as I'm aware". I've not personally used any in 3-wire mode, so I don't have first hand experience with that configuration.  The only miniature AT's I currently have on hand are a pair of Darktrain modded 2-wire 853 cards but haven't actually used them.  I've used borrowed 853 and 933 pairs, both with and without the 4.7k-mod in testing low-voltage miniature-microphones in OMT arrays before moving to the DPA 4098 hypers, but all those were/are 2-wire, the DPA's being native 2-wire to begin with. 

So let me modify that statement to say that both native 3-wire mode and the 2-wire 4.7k-mod achieve increased max-SPL handling over straight 2-wire wiring, but the 4.7-mod does so at at the expense of increased self-noise.  Depending on the recording environment, that may not be an issue, but if it is then running them in native 3-wire mode avoids that issue.  Also it is the mode in which the manufacturer intended them to be run.  The downside is the inconvenience of requiring 3-wire preamps or powering modules.