Topic: Nagra LINO

[flicflac]

This is interesting..
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/901495-REG/Nagra_LINO_Professional_Handheld.html

[yousef]

It's an ugly little thing, isn't it?

I bet it sounds great though. Wonder what that "quality: low/high" switch on the back does...

[F.O.Bean]

NICE!

[rodeen]

It can also double as an electric shaver!   

[George2]

I bet it sounds great though. Wonder what that "quality: low/high" switch on the back does...

It has 2 templates to pre-set the recording sample and bit rate.
You can set them to ..say.. 44.1/16bit and the other to 96k/24bit, or whatever you like.
Just use the switch on the back.

[yousef]

I has 2 templates to pre-set the recording sample and bit rate.
You can set them to ..say.. 44.1/16bit and the other to 96k/24bit, or whatever you like.
Just use the switch on the back.

Oh, I like that. Lost count of the number of times I've had to hurriedly navigate the menus to swap sample rate on the M10 just before a band hits the stage.

Then again, I think I'd be tempted to set both 'high' and 'low' to the same setting in case the switch got flipped in my pocket...

[George2]

You could do that, but the switches are not easily moved, plus if it's like the SD version, it comes with a "leatherette" cover so only the hold switch is visible.
I have the SD version......and want for no other handheld.
Doesn't have a limiter, just the switchable AGC.
Menu very similar to RO9HR.... really easy.

[John Willett]

This is interesting..
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/901495-REG/Nagra_LINO_Professional_Handheld.html

It's a down-rated Nagra SD by the looks of it.

The same body with less options on the back and fixed mics instead of the plug-in options of the SD.

Very nice at the price.

But as I already have the SD, I won't be getting one.

[Ozpeter]

Already discussed a while back at http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=158638.0

[George2]

Yep.. already discussed a while back..

[jagraham]

Looks cool, possibly an upgrade to my Tascam units.  Only problem I see is one might unknowingly have the quality switch on mp3 and accidentally change to that during recording.

[George2]

That's no problem because you wouldn't program those to MP3, would you?
It is more than possibly an upgrade from Tascam... or Sony combined.

[carpa]

Not having xlr inputs, this unit has to be compared to Edirol R09hr or Sont pcm-m10.  For the price is sensibly highier I think some things should be made clear:

1) Ho do sound the mics?
2) How are internal mic pre's ?
3) line in quality in terms of circuitry and AD conversion? If AD conversion would prove to be  sensibly better than other pocket recorders, then a littlebox or whatever external pre we could use would give better result.
4) Max input line signal accepted is +17 db. What it means in terms of nominal level; can it handle hot signals as the R09hr can?
5) Minijack plug is always the weak point in terms of reliability ( remember old edirol r-09 issues); will the Lino exibit much more solid connections or not. Even being the best piece of gear in the world, an external signal would always pass through there...
6) Powering options; all other portable unit offer the possibility of AC powering. This one don't. Is it possible to power it from usb port or it is only for file transfer?

Any report?
thanks

[noahbickart]

Might as well buy the OEM gear.

This is a Chinese unit, which seems to be used by AEQ as well.

http://www.aeq.eu/products/digital-portable-recorder

We should figure out which Chinese factory makes the thing and buy 100 of them, and get them branded as the TS.com DAR1000x. I bet we could get the price down to the m10 range, which, given the specs, seems just about right.

[John Willett]

Might as well buy the OEM gear.

This is a Chinese unit, which seems to be used by AEQ as well.

http://www.aeq.eu/products/digital-portable-recorder

We should figure out which Chinese factory makes the thing and buy 100 of them, and get them branded as the TS.com DAR1000x. I bet we could get the price down to the m10 range, which, given the specs, seems just about right.

Just because the LINO looks like the AEQ unit, does not mean that it is the same.

The body may be the same, but the internal electronics would have been specified by Nagra and to Nagra specs.

Yes, they have gone down the route of having an affordable recorder made in China, but the quality of the mic. pres. ADC, DAC, etc. would have been specified by Nagra.

I think they took a standard unit, modified it to their requirements and then had the factory build it to Nagra spec. - it definitely will not be the same internally as the AEQ unit.

They did the same thing with the earlier ARES units, that were a Nagraised version of a standard unit.

That's the way Nagra can get a high quality portable unit at a reasonable cost.

[carpa]

What John Willet is probably true, but maybe Nagra should specify things a little more, and not just  rely on "trust the name" . As I asked in my previous post, if this Lino had better AD, better mic pre, stronger 3,5 input than other handhelds which cost half the price, then it would be a very good unit and justify why some one should buy it at the same price of an Olympus ls-100 ( in Europe, at least).  It would be a choice of less flexibility ( no xlr, no phantom) vs. better quality.
If quality be the same as an Edirol R09hr or a Sony pcm m10 then there's no choice.

What makes me a bit suspicious is why Nagra sd, which apparently shares the same body with lino and it's said to share also the internal circuitry with the difference of plug-in dedicated mics, still costs three times more
regards

[noahbickart]

Looking at the specs, there doesn't seem to be any reason to use the 24bit setting going line in. If the noise floor is only 90db down, those last 8 bits are all noise. I tried for a while, but couldn't find a price or dealer for the AEQ unit online. Given this, the $300 more you spend on this rather than the m10 is *only* for the name Nagra on it.

This reminds be of Lexicon using a OEM Oppo DVD player (~$800) and putting it in a fancy aluminum case and charging $3000 for it.

I suspect the price is totally based on the name. If Nagra was actually using only the case and putting their own innards in it, why wouldn't they be more forthcoming?

I've e-mailed Nagra asking who the OEM is, we'll see if they write back.

[ghiromax]

I think the OEM for Nagra Lino is this company

sales@infomedia.com.cn
infomedia.com.cn

on their site there a version of the recorder named PAW-V, having different mics than the Nagra Lino and the AEQ L-300, but a couple od days ago I've found some pics of exactly he same looking as Lino/L-300 branded Infomedian(or Lotoo)  L-300. It was a Chinese page which I'm not able anymore to find ...

I've found two PAW-V reviews in Chinese where they seem to compare it to Sony D-50 which may be quite interesting, unfortunately the google translation leaves too many doubts on the correct interpretation of them :-( If any Chinese speaking wants to contribute these are the links

http://www.erji.net/simple/index.php?t1123256.html
http://bbs.headphoneclub.com/archiver/tid-183993.html

 

[noahbickart]

Well done! I'm on this!

I think the OEM for Nagra Lino is this company

sales@infomedia.com.cn
infomedia.com.cn

on their site there a version of the recorder named PAW-V, having different mics than the Nagra Lino and the AEQ L-300, but a couple od days ago I've found some pics of exactly he same looking as Lino/L-300 branded Infomedian(or Lotoo)  L-300. It was a Chinese page which I'm not able anymore to find ...

I've found two PAW-V reviews in Chinese where they seem to compare it to Sony D-50 which may be quite interesting, unfortunately the google translation leaves too many doubts on the correct interpretation of them :-( If any Chinese speaking wants to contribute these are the links

http://www.erji.net/simple/index.php?t1123256.html
http://bbs.headphoneclub.com/archiver/tid-183993.html

[George2]

Looking at the specs, there doesn't seem to be any reason to use the 24bit setting going line in. If the noise floor is only 90db down, those last 8 bits are all noise.

^^This is my feeling when using any palm-sized recorder.

I have the Nagra SD. Build quality is excellent.
When running unblanaced line in from a SD Mixpre-D, (XLR out unblanaced),
I turn on the -20dBsf slate tone on the Mixpre, and with the NagraSD line input turned all the way down, it's recording the tone at -18.89dBfs.. both channels. exactly the same.
I put the test tone in a DAW and that's what it comes in at.
Nagra peak light comes on at 0dBfs. There isn't any distortion that I can tell.
There isn't any limiter.

When using mic input the peak light comes on at 0dBfs or when you clip the internal mic preamp.

It's very easy to use.

Yes, noise floor not as quiet as other palm-sized recorders... but that's not the whole story about the quality of the sound.
My RO9-HR is a couple dB quieter, but the sound is slightly duller.

I did e-mail Nagra several times and asked these questions...

Can you make the noise floor quieter?.. answer was "yes, at the expense of battery life.. it's all about power... we could make it with a different chip, but battery life greatly reduced."
Does the line level input bypass the mic preamps?.... answer was "yes."

The review from this AEQ-L300 says it's different software than the Nagra.... but it looks the same.
One thing different.... the latest Nagra software the record button stays solid red while in record, and the AEQ blinks faster when in record.
This is how early version of the Nagra SD software was. Would be interesting to see if you could load the Nagra Lino Software.

[noahbickart]

AEQ is available here for ~$350:
http://www.scmsinc.com/shop-item/studio-products-telephone-interfaces-codecs/l300-aeq-l300-portable-hand-held-recorder/

You can run this off of a USB battery pack:
You can also supply power the AEQ L300 with the USB cable connecting it to a PC.
1 InserttheUSBcableintoUSBconnectorontheAEQL300 2 ConnecttheUSBcabletothePCUSBport.
3 Choose[Power]whendisplayprompts[USBWorkMod].
4 AEQL300isnowpoweredthroughtheUSBconnector.

AEQ Manual: http://www.aeq.es/sites/4ea1346a570d99455a0000c6/contents/content_instance/4eb12158570d99081700069f/files/L300_User_Manual_WWW.pdf

Compare with:

Nagra Lino Manual:
http://www.alt-1c.ru/userfiles/download_the_manual_in_a_professional_digital_recorder_nagra_lino.pdf

This sells for $500 at b and h: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/901495-REG/Nagra_LINO_Professional_Handheld.html

I believe, though I don't have any data to prove it, that:

 **these two units differ only in the name on the recorder and the firmware that happens to be loaded onto the chip.**

I'd love to load the Nagra firmware onto the AEQ to prove it.

[hi and lo]

Looking at the specs, there doesn't seem to be any reason to use the 24bit setting going line in. If the noise floor is only 90db down, those last 8 bits are all noise.

Sony PCM-M10 - 87dB or greater (1KHz IHF-A) when set to 24-bit
Tascam DR-100mkii - 92dB or more（XLR LINE 1 IN→LINE OUT, Fs44.1kHz, +24dBu input, JEITA）

[noahbickart]

Looking at the specs, there doesn't seem to be any reason to use the 24bit setting going line in. If the noise floor is only 90db down, those last 8 bits are all noise.

Sony PCM-M10 - 87dB or greater (1KHz IHF-A) when set to 24-bit
Tascam DR-100mkii - 92dB or more（XLR LINE 1 IN→LINE OUT, Fs44.1kHz, +24dBu input, JEITA）

True that. I only run @ 24bit because of my ego. 

The Tascam, in addition to the better specs, can take spdif.

The real irony in all of this is that if Nagra put out a little box like this which only had a spdif in and charged $350 for it, we'd all probably own one.

[runonce]

Might as well buy the OEM gear.

This is a Chinese unit, which seems to be used by AEQ as well.

http://www.aeq.eu/products/digital-portable-recorder

We should figure out which Chinese factory makes the thing and buy 100 of them, and get them branded as the TS.com DAR1000x. I bet we could get the price down to the m10 range, which, given the specs, seems just about right.

Maybe they should call it the NINO...

"Nagra In Name Only"

[F.O.Bean]

Might as well buy the OEM gear.

This is a Chinese unit, which seems to be used by AEQ as well.

http://www.aeq.eu/products/digital-portable-recorder

We should figure out which Chinese factory makes the thing and buy 100 of them, and get them branded as the TS.com DAR1000x. I bet we could get the price down to the m10 range, which, given the specs, seems just about right.

Maybe they should call it the NINO...

"Nagra In Name Only"

 

[Ozpeter]

The PAW-V mic configuration looks theoretically better than that on the Nagra version.

Nagra would do well to address concerns over this device's pedigree and relative cost.  In googling briefly I found a French forum where people we commenting on how these oem buy-in devices isn't what you expect from Nagra.

I have to say that if Nagra was able to get the electronics uprated, couldn't they have done something about the tacky finish of the case?  All that fake chrome does look a bit tasteless (now - back in the 1950's it would have been the height of fashion!)

[TSNéa]

Just to add some confusion, if needed...

http://web.archive.org/web/20090831193244/http://www.pawrecorder.com/downloads.php

http://web.archive.org/web/20110930080535/http://www.aeq.es/eng/recorder120.htm

 

I tried "Paw recorder Finland" in my search engine too...

http://futuvision.com/en/futuvision-technologies/professional-audio-equipment-and-software

http://publications.theseus.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/8502/Zeng,%20Qianqian.pdf?sequence=2

http://www.etradeasia.com/company_detail/175866/4553/Beijing_Lotoo_Digital_Technology_Co_Ltd_.html

    

On the Lotoo site, there is a link to their shop on taobao.com. Last item on the right side of the blue ribbon.
Two adaptable mics I did'nt see elsewhere.

I could not find how to switch the language to French. Or English. 
There used to be an englishtaobao.com that disappeared.

[DigiGal]

Might as well buy the OEM gear.

This is a Chinese unit, which seems to be used by AEQ as well.

http://www.aeq.eu/products/digital-portable-recorder

We should figure out which Chinese factory makes the thing and buy 100 of them, and get them branded as the TS.com DAR1000x. I bet we could get the price down to the m10 range, which, given the specs, seems just about right.

Maybe they should call it the NINO...

"Nagra In Name Only"

I'll play along...

LINO = Less Impressive Nagra Option

I'd rather Nagra stayed out of China altogether and never put their name on this.  Hopefully Sound Devices never stoops to this.

[noahbickart]

reminds me of this:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/mutton_in_wolfs_clothing

"According to Lexicon, however, "We had our electrical and electronic engineering teams go through the audio and video circuitry in meticulous detail to make some performance improvements to both the analog audio and video circuitry. This, more than anything else, is where we made our biggest improvements to the end product. . . . The BD-30 is also customized with its own firmware, making it notably different than the Oppo in terms of upgrades. The BD-30 goes through final assembly at the Harman offices in Elkhart, Indiana.""

"But apparently Lexicon hadn't just based their design on the Oppo—it was an Oppo, to which had been added a hefty front panel and chassis and THX certification. As the photos accompanying the Audioholics report revealed, it looked as if the complete Oppo player had been dropped into a new chassis, with no other hardware changes made. Oh, dear!"

Nagra didn't even change the case!

Shanda.

[John Willett]

Nagra didn't even change the case!

The case is probably the reason Nagra chose it - it's far easier to re-design the electronics and change a PCB than it is to change the case.

And Nagra are sticklers for the quality of their ADC/DAC and analogue circuitry, so I am sure they would have gone over this thoroughly and not taken a stock unit.

[noahbickart]

And Nagra are sticklers for the quality of their ADC/DAC and analogue circuitry, so I am sure they would have gone over this thoroughly and not taken a stock unit.

I would love for you to be correct. But compare the specs from the manuals above. It seems to me hat the "Nagra" and the "AEQ" are the same piece of gear with slightly different firmware.

If Nagra changed the internals, I'd like to see proof of that- not simple assertions that they must have.

All indications from the supplied literature are that the only thing Nagra about this is the name on the case.

[BitRater]

Might as well buy the OEM gear.

This is a Chinese unit, which seems to be used by AEQ as well.

http://www.aeq.eu/products/digital-portable-recorder

We should figure out which Chinese factory makes the thing and buy 100 of them, and get them branded as the TS.com DAR1000x. I bet we could get the price down to the m10 range, which, given the specs, seems just about right.

Maybe they should call it the NINO...

"Nagra In Name Only"

I'll play along...

LINO = Less Impressive Nagra Option

I'd rather Nagra stayed out of China altogether and never put their name on this.  Hopefully Sound Devices never stoops to this.

Sorry for responding to a necropost here, but I felt I had to respond. What Nagra are doing is the same thing everyone else is doing, and that is going downmarket.
The reason for the downmarket trend is that consumers and professional users of specialized audio equipment are broke, because of the way the global economy is
going. Nobody has the cash anymore to shell out $1K + for recorders like the very similar Nagra SD. Plus a lot of people are thinking, 'why shell out this kind of money for
a dedicated recorder when I can do the same thing with my iPhone?' and that is also putting downward pressure on prices.

[noahbickart]

Fair enough. You've no doubt correctly explained their thinking. And it might actually be a good recorder.

However, I think it is dishonest to take an OEM product, slap your name on it and increase the price based only on the brand.

[John Willett]

However, I think it is dishonest to take an OEM product, slap your name on it and increase the price based only on the brand.

What makes you think Nagra have done this?

The only thing is that the LINO looks like the OEM unit.

How do you know that Nagra did not redesign the analogue audio section and specify higher internal quality?

I certainly know of other manufacturers who took an OEM basic unit and then specified very different internal electronics.

Nagra can save a lot of design budget by taking an OEM body - they can then specify their own internal design of the microphone amplifiers and audio circuits etc. at a reasonable cost and come up with a cost-effective recorder of high quality.

Have you had the Nagra and the OEM side-by-side and compared and measured them?

Just because one thing looks like another, does not mean that it will perform like the other.

[BitRater]

However, I think it is dishonest to take an OEM product, slap your name on it and increase the price based only on the brand.

What makes you think Nagra have done this?

The only thing is that the LINO looks like the OEM unit.

How do you know that Nagra did not redesign the analogue audio section and specify higher internal quality?

I certainly know of other manufacturers who took an OEM basic unit and then specified very different internal electronics.

Nagra can save a lot of design budget by taking an OEM body - they can then specify their own internal design of the microphone amplifiers and audio circuits etc. at a reasonable cost and come up with a cost-effective recorder of high quality.

Have you had the Nagra and the OEM side-by-side and compared and measured them?

Just because one thing looks like another, does not mean that it will perform like the other.

This makes perfect sense to me, because using another company's OEM cosmetics will help a company like Nagra sell a new recorder at a pre-determined price rather than have to take out features or make compromises elsewhere to do the same thing.

[spyder9]

I seriously doubt Nagra re-engineered the innards of this recorder.  They just slapped their name on it and marked up the price. 

Below is an Asian exporter selling it as the "Looto L300" for $346.17 USD shipped.    Case closed.

http://en.zakazexpert.com/index.php/taobao/view/id/14034957895
 

[runonce]

Lots of mics these days have the same cosmetics...Avantone and Busman come to mind-but totally different innards...not sure it would be any different with recorders. Seems to be the hallmark of Chinese manufacturing

[andromedanwarmachine]

well put John.

Nagra have far too high a profile and reputation to fool around with this kind of thing.

They rarely conform to market trends and cut their own cloth in terms of feature priority.

A distinct product will be just that. Horses for courses.

I have a DR 07 which I never worry about leaving around- this machine is their answer (albeit at a price) to that end of things

[Gutbucket]

Little but speculation from all sides as I see it.

Until someone actually bench tests these things, it's all a 'who do you trust' game.  If Nagra is not simply leveraging the historically well deserved goodwill value of their name (as yet undisputed for them, yet the trend towards doing so is increasingly common with plenty of other 'famous quality' brands across a wide variety of alternate market segments), they would do well to back up that good reputation with solid justification: explain in detail the actual differences, show the differences in specification, show resulting test data, perhaps even offering sample comparison recordings.  If serious about persuing this relatively new market segment (for them), Nagra has plenty to gain, and little to loose in doing so, unless things don't stack up. 

The onus is on Nagra to demonstrate their identical appearing recorder superior in ways other than name brand reputation.  If they choose not to do so, their reticence and silence speaks volumes IMO.  The suspicion is already out there and apparently growing.  They need to do something about it.  Supporters begging others to "trust them" is not them doing something.

[mysticeyes]

How do you know the insides are not exactly the same? Empiricism works far better than faith, reverence or mythology.

[2manyrocks]

It's a bit puzzling why Nagra offers a product in this price range instead of sticking to their really high end recorders. 

What does this product offer that would compel someone to buy it instead of a Sony or any other recorder that could be had for less money?

[John Willett]

I seriously doubt Nagra re-engineered the innards of this recorder.  They just slapped their name on it and marked up the price. 

Why do you say this?  What evidence do you have?

I certainly know that Nagra had internal changes when they used an OEM body in the past.

They may not have changed everything, but I certainly would have thought that they would upgrade parts of the analogue circuitry.

[John Willett]

It's a bit puzzling why Nagra offers a product in this price range instead of sticking to their really high end recorders. 

To make a company viable.  There is a large market for portable recorders and Nagre need money to pay for the development for their top end recorders.

What does this product offer that would compel someone to buy it instead of a Sony or any other recorder that could be had for less money?

Because it's a "Nagra" and a professional user gets excellent back-up from them as well as proven reliability.

[noahbickart]

Folks:

Read this thread, and you will see that the specs for the Nagra and the OEM devic are the same. The manuals are identical. The only difference is the badge.

[spyder9]

I seriously doubt Nagra re-engineered the innards of this recorder.  They just slapped their name on it and marked up the price. 

Why do you say this?  What evidence do you have?

I certainly know that Nagra had internal changes when they used an OEM body in the past.

They may not have changed everything, but I certainly would have thought that they would upgrade parts of the analogue circuitry.

AKG  They blazed the trail on low cost, high profit-margin goods.  "Just put our name on it and it will sell"  Everyone's a whore when it comes to easy money.   Tascam is another example.  Their firmware is just tweaked between all their recorders.  Why build new firmware for each recorder, when you already built one that's bug-free.  Money.  That's what it's all about.  Money.   

What exactly would Nagra improve?  OP amps?  3.5mm connectors?  Why would they allow AEQ, Lotoo, or any other company sell something identical?  Why use the same body?  Why not build your own like Korg did?  Manuals look exactly the same for each recorder?  Why?  After all they're supposed to be Nagra.  Cutting edge.  Leader.  Correct?  How embarrassing.  You cannot convince me this is not a re-badge.  Can't.  I'm sticking to my guns on this one.

[2manyrocks]

It's a bit puzzling why Nagra offers a product in this price range instead of sticking to their really high end recorders. 

To make a company viable.  There is a large market for portable recorders and Nagre need money to pay for the development for their top end recorders.

What does this product offer that would compel someone to buy it instead of a Sony or any other recorder that could be had for less money?

Because it's a "Nagra" and a professional user gets excellent back-up from them as well as proven reliability.

Cadillac dealers tried to sell a Cadillac version of the Chevrolet Nova in the late 1970's, and it just didn't fly with Cadillac customers who weren't going to pay a Cadillac price for what they perceived as a rebranded Chevrolet Nova. If Nagra attempted to upscale an existing recorder in the market, that may be a hard sell to skeptical customers.   

On the other hand, the chinese are known for making inferior copies of good products.  It could be the other units are chinese knock offs.

 

[spyder9]

It's entirely possible if not likely that Nagra specified a design that was then rebranded into that great grey market of OEM goods.

Yeah, 2 years, 2 models in a row?

Nagra SD debuts in 2012, 6 months before  Infomedia releases the Paw V

http://radiomagonline.com/studio_audio/recording/field_report_nagra_sd_0112/

http://radiomagonline.com/studio_audio/recording/infomedia-paw-v-0712/


AEQ debuts the L300 at NAB 2012, Nagra debuts the Lino at NAB 2013

http://www.panoramaaudiovisual.com/en/2012/03/26/aeq-mostrara-en-nab-sus-novedades-para-el-mercado-broadcast/

http://vod.com.ng/en/video/y0ZaZ0pPi1w/NAB-2013-NAGRA-Lino

[noahbickart]

http://www.broadcaststoreeurope.com/getdoc.asp?id=154&md5hash=F87EAA98B1661A4AE9AEA16878F9D688

http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/doc_en/Leaflet_LINO.pdf

Totally different, huh?

[runonce]

I think you guys are giving them a bum rap...

Its not like NAGRA is pimping this thing as the "Nagra Eight"...

Its listed/marketed in their "Pro" line - in the "Radio/Broadcast" category...and NOT part of the Music category!

It is NOT part of their "High End" offerings.

Also - note the Nagra SD is pretty much the same device with their proprietary(?) mic added...so - there might be an incentive to order a shit load of "LINOs" - knowing they are going to re-manufacture/mod them for the SD model.

[Gutbucket]

The relevant question is whether the bum rap is deserved or not.

Regardless of the valid concerns raised about this from the equipment perspective, discussion of how such a thing can happen and the value of branding and good customer support, and overlooking the typical vacuous lowest-common denominator marketing speak in sales literature, I'd expect Nagra to at least proof-read releases for blatant errors. 

The promotion of an all too common misunderstanding about the basics of how digital audio works by way of a misleading illustration in their sales materials should not have escaped the critical eye of a 'top quality' digital audio manufacturer and industry leader.  I can only assume they overlooked this little illustrative detail, because its simply unacceptable to those of us attempting to explain how digital audio actually works, over and over again, when even Nagra's literature gets it wrong. 

How many pages have been filled at TS alone discussing the actual differences between 16 and 24bit audio recording?

My circle and arrow in green from this screen shot of the PDF leaflet (illustration labeled identically on both the AEQ and Nagra leaflets)-

[noahbickart]

That's because it isn't a Nagra. Nagra didn't build it. Nagra didn't even write the literature it sends out with the gear. Nagra only had its logo slapped on an Chinese OEM piece of gear, and *perhaps* tweaked the firmware a little.

They have besmirched their good name, and deserve to be called out on it.

[runonce]

I'll give them credit for throwing in the towel when it comes to certain market/spec...what should they do? Engineer a boutique product that does more or less the same thing, same price, but looks more "Nagra-y"

If they feel an OEM product meets their spec - (which is as much about function, as sound, in this category) - then I have no problem with them sticking their stamp of a approval on a OEM product.

It's clear they're still making the high-end niche gear...but they made their name by having the best reel to reel tape transport - that ship has sailed...and world of media production has changed as well.

Now they make a gear that seems to have been engineered with a very specific use/end product (aside from great fidelity!)

And they have what looks like a few more OEM handhelds...I guess these are used a lot in you work in some areas of the broadcast industry.

[2manyrocks]

If Nagra had asked me whether to bring a handheld recorder to the already crowded handheld recorder market, one question I would have asked them is whether putting the Nagra name on any handheld recorder gives credence to the status of handheld recorders?  That is, it could be argued that Nagra should have stuck to its high end recorders as being the exclusive high end of recording and just not marketed any handheld recorder at all. 

Having entered the handheld market, how does Nagra convince  customers that its handheld recorder is better than the other offerings? 

[Gutbucket]

All important core function stuff. Nagra appropriate serious focus. This target customer replies, yes please.

Its not about Credence, just ask the dude.

[WiFiJeff]

I have been following this thread and have been surprised not to find any analysis of the sound achieveable with the Nagra Lino.  I have also not been able to locate online any reviews of the machine, although it has been out there long enough to expect some of these.  After all, I don't care if all Nagra does is sprinkle pixie dust on a pencil sharpener, if the results are good.

Last fall I lost battery power to my Grace V3 during a piano recital.  At the end oif the piece during which the battery died I re-routed the mic cables into the mic-in ports of my Sonosax MiniR82.  Luckily a friend in the audience was stealthing the recital with a Sony D50 using internal mics, although his tape was flatter and more tiring to listen to than mine (phew!) I managed to match levels and patch the missing section (about 5 minutes) into my tape.  No one (including recordists who were trained pianists who had played the piece involved) could locate the patch or even come very close.

Since then I have 1) switched to using a Sound Devices 633, with triple power back-up (internal AAs and two 7.2V camcorder snap-on batteries); and 2) used a shaver recorder with its internal mics to make a backup.  I had hoped to use my old Sony D1, but it had a dead channel and Sony wouldn't service it any longer.  So I bought a Nagra Lino.   I have used the backup only once, when, still learning the 633, I hit the record button the wrong way and missed 5 seconds of program while I figured out what was happening.  The patch from the Lino was also seamless.  When the D1 was repaired (third party) I did a comparison, but unfortunately did not keep the files (and I have regularly tossed my backups when not needed, as thankfully has been the case).  My memory of the sound I got then was

#1 and winner, big expensive equipment (how embarrassing if not!)
#2 Nagra Lino on mic stand
#3 Sony D1 ditto
#4 Audience tape using Sony D50 and DPA4060s, about 3-4X the distance as the others, in unknown but clearly sub-optimal configuration.

I hope to do another comparison of the Lino with the D1 in the next few weeks.  In the meantime, I have three clips you can use to compare the Lino to better gear.  My setup was a Josephson C700S with X and Y capsules into Sound Devices MP1s and line-in to the 633 (W went mic-in, but was not used in the clip, which is a Blumlein stereo mix).  The mic was centered and about 6-7 feet up.  A few inches below it was the Lino.  A friend brought his own stand and a Speiden SF-12 stereo ribbon mic (precursor of the Royer SF-12), it was about 2 feet above my C700S and ran Blumlein configuration into mic-ins of the 633.  Anyone who wants to hear this PM me and I'll send a link to 16/44.1 files (recorded originally 24/96) of the three clips (about 9 minutes each).  Then PM me for which is which, I'm interested also in your guesses, though here the Lino is pretty obviously not as good (to me).

Jeff

[spyder9]

• intuitive menus. According to reviews I have seen, they did write their own firmware and got that right.

Links please?  Most of the comments I read of such were from fanboys, not actual reviewers.   

[spyder9]

fair enough

[WiFiJeff]

Well I'm not under the illusion that there's a huge interest (my last post got ONE pm for a link), but I did do a comparison of the Lino with the Sony D1 and D50 (both with mics in XY configuration), on a piano.  All three machines were on a stand flanking (and a bit below) a Jecklin Disk with Josephson C617 omni mics with MK102.1 (LD) caps.  I got the levels pretty close except for the D50, where I had to boost by 6dB, otherwise there is no editing on the files other than reducing from 24/96 to 16/44.1.  PM me for a link to all four samples (about 3 minutes each),  I'm interested in which you prefer and any guesses on who's who.  I might do a Lino/Zoom H6 comparison in a few weeks, if there's interest.

Jeff

[glennjr]

8 months on...Has there been any conclusions on this topic?

[audBall]

8 months on...Has there been any conclusions on this topic?

Nah, this is TS. We simply rehash and rebute.

[jbell]

Over priced recorder!!  I doubt it will out perform a Sony PCM-M10, but that is only my opinion.

8 months on...Has there been any conclusions on this topic?

[noahbickart]

well, I'm still angry that Nagra would slap their badge on something they didn't make.

[John Willett]

well, I'm still angry that Nagra would slap their badge on something they didn't make.

If Nagra made it from scratch in Switzerland it would be four or five times the price and unsellable.

So - they customise an OEM product for this lower end market.  I have no problem with that - it's a lot more than just stuffing a badge on.

I have the Nagra SD as well as the big Nagra VI 

[2manyrocks]

It's a hard sale in this market at the asking price as it is.

[hi and lo]

well, I'm still angry that Nagra would slap their badge on something they didn't make.

it's a lot more than just stuffing a badge on.

You keep saying this, but have never provided a shred of evidence to support the claim.

[John Willett]

well, I'm still angry that Nagra would slap their badge on something they didn't make.

it's a lot more than just stuffing a badge on.

You keep saying this, but have never provided a shred of evidence to support the claim.

But no one has ever presented a shred of evidence to say that they haven't.

I found out that it's not a bog standard badge job by talking to Nagra themselves.

[noahbickart]

Look, all I know is what I've seen on the *published* spec sheets and advertising copy. From that information, the Nagra unit is identical to the Chinese OEM recorder which sells for half the price.

Please state how Nagra adapted the OEM device if you know something that Nagra doesn't care to publish.

[Ozpeter]

Please state how Nagra adapted the OEM device if you know something that Nagra doesn't care to publish.

But - then they'd have to kill him!

Seems to me that this is a pretty pointless discussion.  If Nagra did make some changes, are they actually audible (which is what counts)?  What are the chances of getting the two versions of the device side by side and testing?  Nil, I'd say. 

If you believe the Nagra version is better then buy it.  If you the think the other versions are no worse and much cheaper, buy them.  But I suspect none of the participants here have any particular plan to buy either.  And has the Nagra world come to an end due to the supposed ruin of their reputation over this device in the quite long time it's been on the market?  I think not.

Really not worth going over yet again.

[hi and lo]

We're still waiting for legitimate information as to how the Lino is different. Can't say I've seen too many of these purchased by ts.com users, if any. Maybe if we had a legitimate product ambassador that doesn't just make unsubstantiated claims more would have been purchased.

[voltronic]

We're still waiting for legitimate information as to how the Lino is different. Can't say I've seen too many of these purchased by ts.com users, if any. Maybe if we had a legitimate product ambassador that doesn't just make unsubstantiated claims more would have been purchased.

The Lino has been discontinued, so there's not much point discussing any further.

[John Willett]

Looking at this thread reminded me to look at the Nagra website.

I found new software for my Nagra SD - I was using 1.2.0.12 and the latest is 1.2.0.15.

So if you have a Nagra recorder, it's worth checking - the latest for the Lino is 1.3.0.4.