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Author Topic: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?  (Read 25149 times)

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Offline Chuck

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2014, 12:05:38 PM »
For me it's still worth while to record mono sources in stereo, because it does give you the illusion on playback of the physical space. Also, the audience applause etc... always sounds great in stereo. In fact, I still get chills and the sensation of being there when the applause comes after a great performance heard on playback.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2014, 01:15:45 PM »
^^ some people love the "reality" of boomy reflections and crowd noise more than others.   :P
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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2014, 01:29:48 PM »
^^  When I'm listening for fun, I find that I usually listen past those things on a recording the same as I do at the performance.  If I'm critiquing a recording, no. 

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2014, 01:43:12 PM »
I don't know about you people, but I have only two analog inputs in my brain.
 
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Offline Jhurlbs81

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2014, 01:59:30 PM »
If I am in a very nice sounding room and  I want to hear it I will use a sub-cardioid mic.  If the room doesn't sound good I go for a more direct sound with a hypercardiod.  I would make the argument you can get all the room sound you want with a single pair of mics.  (assuming a standard 2 channel PA)
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Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2014, 02:11:37 PM »
Lots of interesting and thoughtful responses. Thanks!

If I am in a very nice sounding room and  I want to hear it I will use a sub-cardioid mic.  If the room doesn't sound good I go for a more direct sound with a hypercardiod.  I would make the argument you can get all the room sound you want with a single pair of mics.  (assuming a standard 2 channel PA)

[Marketing hat on]

A nice thing about an ambisonic mic (like our TetraMic) is that it is a card, a subcard, a hypercard, an omni, any mix and number of those previous four mics with each one pointed in any arbitary direction you desire, a Blumlein array (crossed figure-8s), an X-Y array, a 5.1 surround array with three cards pointing forward and two hypercards rearwards and an omni for LFE, and lots of others too, including those that preserve height information.

And you don't have to decide which mics and patterns you want to record with before you go to the venue, or even while you're recording. You get to experiment with  and decide what sounds best afterwards, in post-production.

And lastly, if you've recorded with a pair of ambisonic mics, you get to include spaced arrays (like ORTF and spaced omnis) among your choices.

[Marketing hat off]
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 02:21:55 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2014, 02:39:56 PM »
I don't know about you people, but I have only two analog inputs in my brain.

A strong argument for headphones (and binarual recording), but not a good one for recordings made for playback over speakers.

If I am in a very nice sounding room and  I want to hear it I will use a sub-cardioid mic.  If the room doesn't sound good I go for a more direct sound with a hypercardiod.  I would make the argument you can get all the room sound you want with a single pair of mics.  (assuming a standard 2 channel PA)

Totally reasonable and true.  No need to assume a standard PA, non-standard PA or no PA though.  You can get all the room sound you want with just one mic for mono, two for stereo. 

Here's an interesting thing about that though- a mono recording is much less tolerant of the level of reverberant room sound than a stereo recording.  The the sound becomes muddled, unclear and objectionable much quicker as reverberant levels rise compared to direct sound levels when there is only one microphone and speaker, compared to two.  The same trend holds true moving to additional discrete playback channel counts.  So in that sense (admittedly one of the few), a decent mono recording is actually harder to make from an overly reverberant room than a decent stereo recording, and that trend continues as the channel count increases.  Not much else with all this get's easier, but that important aspect does.

An important part of finding optimal microphone arrangements for multi-channel recording is increasing the directivity of the three front channels and the separation between them over what is provided by optimal 2-channel stereo configurations.  Again, that same principle applies to three (or four, or more) channels which will be mixed down to stereo, which is a pretty common thing around here.  However, once mixed, that extra tolerance against additional reverberance I mentioned above is lost.  That aspect is entirely dependent on increasing the number of playback channels and maintaining that increased degree of separation that was provided by an appropriate microphone configuration all the way from the microphone to the individual speaker.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 09:05:44 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline boyacrobat

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2014, 08:25:08 AM »


I think personally the surround concept is still in infancy
maby by design a mistake

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Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2014, 09:53:38 AM »
I'd love to try it, and there have been a few shows in the past that I would have LOVED to have run a surround rig (Super Furry Animals used to have a surround PA & Roger Waters/The Wall).

I'm with the "too much trouble" crowd for most shows though. I'm happy with my 2 channel recordings. They accomplish what I want, which is a decent sounding recording to remember the show by.

I think the additional cost (I have a long list of things I want before surround), plus the hassle will probably keep me from ever running surround though.
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Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2014, 10:58:01 AM »
I think the additional cost (I have a long list of things I want before surround), plus the hassle will probably keep me from ever running surround though.

A complete surround recording system looks like this:

    TetraMic (or other ambisonic microphone)
    Tascam DR-680 (or other four channel recorder)

Total cost is around $2000.

Quote
I'm with the "too much trouble" crowd for most shows though.

Set the mic up where the sound is good. Set levels and hit record.

Since there's only one mic, it's actually simpler than running a traditional stereo rig.

The recording gives you mono, stereo, binaural or any kind of surround.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 11:21:15 AM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2014, 12:00:57 PM »
I think the additional cost (I have a long list of things I want before surround), plus the hassle will probably keep me from ever running surround though.

A complete surround recording system looks like this:

    TetraMic (or other ambisonic microphone)
    Tascam DR-680 (or other four channel recorder)

Total cost is around $2000.

Quote
I'm with the "too much trouble" crowd for most shows though.

Set the mic up where the sound is good. Set levels and hit record.

Since there's only one mic, it's actually simpler than running a traditional stereo rig.

The recording gives you mono, stereo, binaural or any kind of surround.

I'm moving more in the direction of close mic'ing. My wish list for mics is easily 2K before I even consider something like this.
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Offline mysticeyes

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2014, 12:28:26 PM »
"A complete surround recording system looks like this:

    TetraMic (or other ambisonic microphone)
    Tascam DR-680 (or other four channel recorder)

Total cost is around $2000."

A nice playback system for surround sound could be multiples of that amount....

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2014, 12:29:51 PM »
I like the way Beyers sound (though don't have any). 

Found this quote about the M201 :

 Steve Albini: "If the SM57 were a microphone, it would sound like this"

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2014, 12:51:18 PM »
My most portable, smallest, and least expensive open-recording surround setup works quite well, can be assembled on the cheap.  It fits easily in a backpack all pre-wired and ready to record in under a minute-

DR2d (4-ch recorder)
2 x CA-UGLY (4 ch of PIP low-voltage mic power/amplification, substitute PIPsqueeks or whatever)
2 miniature low-voltage omnis (or subcards), 2 miniature low-voltage directional microphones (cardioids or supercardioids)
Stand and custom mounting bars (telescopic TV antennas)

Primary cost driver is the choice of low-voltage microphones.  I currently use DPA miniature omnis and hypercards, but AT miniatures worked very well in my development prototypes. Naiant or Church Audio mics would be obvious alternate choices.  Doable for ~$800+ for everything.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Why Aren't Tapers Recording for Surround Sound?
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2014, 01:03:40 PM »
Get the M201 instead, it can work for nearly anything that the mics on your list can, and it's smaller and incredibly durable.  And the MD421 has the worst mic clip of all time.

The MD421 does have a stupid clip, but I love their sound.

Will check out the M201, price is good. Bit more than the e906 (which I want anyway for small tight stages), but if it's half as good as the M88, I'll be happy.
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