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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: johnieappel on December 18, 2013, 01:40:26 AM
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I'm sure this topic has been gone over numerous times, hoping to get some idea's - I'm looking for suggestions for on stage mic placement for doing a sbd/aud. matrix recording at the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco. Maybe some of you have done one there before. I have for the past 3 years for the Mother Hips Holiday shows & I've tried xy at the center of the stage lip one time, and 16 feet apart a couple other times. I get decent results but have wondered about other placements. I've noticed when going to see bands that sell live recordings of their show afterwards, as a download or on a thumbdrive, there has been mics placed on stage left & right facing each other.Some of the times they look like sure sm57's. I've got some AKG 460's w/ ck61's or ck63's caps or a pair of Dorsey Modded Oktava MK-012's to consider using. Both have sounded great in the past. Here is a link to one of the shows :
https://archive.org/details/MotherHips2011-12-18.matrix.flac (https://archive.org/details/MotherHips2011-12-18.matrix.flac)
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It depends how big the stage is. Personally, I can't go wrong with ORTF or WideORTF, which is 27cm/110*. I would def use the cards too ;)
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I don't know if it's an option or not but recently I've run cards ortf in the center of the stage and omnis split to mix w the sbd. You don't necessarily need to use them all in post but it's nice to have them.
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I don't know if it's an option or not but recently I've run cards ortf in the center of the stage and omnis split to mix w the sbd. You don't necessarily need to use them all in post but it's nice to have them.
This is what i do alot, but with split subcards and NOS cards, with great results.
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WideORTF, which is 27cm/90*
110, not 90. carry on.
I don't know if it's an option or not but recently I've run cards ortf in the center of the stage and omnis split to mix w the sbd. You don't necessarily need to use them all in post but it's nice to have them.
this would be my tendency.
The bigger question when I'm pulling sbd channels is this: what am I lacking if I just took the sbd feed? That's different at each venue/performance so think about that carefully as you look at the stage (see what's mic'd and an understanding of how loud each instrument would be if it wasn't mic'd). If they only mic some things (overheads, vocals, maybe the bass) but not others, then you want to capture as much of that other stuff as possible to compliment the sbd feed. I did a performance last night where they miced the two horns but not the wurlitzer, bass, or drums, so I knew if I was going to take the sbd feed, I'd have to do something on stage to account for those other three. Are you setting up after soundcheck? Maybe ask the person running sound FOH if they are light on some stuff in the mix for the room.
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Depends on the size of the band. Stereophonic Zoom concepts still apply, so estimate the angle between the farthest left amp and the farthest right amp. (or instruments if we are talking an acoustic act) then adjust mics to fit the situation.
Saying that, I tend to run X/Y onstage as it's easy and tends to work well with hard panned stereo board feed.
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Not ideal, but it seems to work well for what I'm doing: two cardioid mics (cheaper ones that I'm not too worried about getting kicked around--Nak 300, AT 3031, or AKG C1000) basically on the ground (away from wedges if possible), on both sides of the stage, pointed at amps. There usually is not space, or approval, for running a real stand in the center, so this is what I've come up with. But I like it because it minimizes the drums in the middle. Mixed in with a board feed and an audience pair, it usually adds the right stuff.
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Not ideal, but it seems to work well for what I'm doing: two cardioid mics (cheaper ones that I'm not too worried about getting kicked around--Nak 300, AT 3031, or AKG C1000) basically on the ground (away from wedges if possible), on both sides of the stage, pointed at amps. There usually is not space, or approval, for running a real stand in the center, so this is what I've come up with. But I like it because it minimizes the drums in the middle. Mixed in with a board feed and an audience pair, it usually adds the right stuff.
A SBD or a coincident AUD pair would mix well with those wide-spaced cardioids to 'fill the middle'. Other AUD mic arrangements may work fine too, but the tendency toward center-heaviness and the phase-coherent nature would reduce the potential of problems when mixing with the wide-spaced cardioids. You'll get plenty of stereo 'openess' from the spaced cardioids if you are worried about loosing that by switching the AUD pair from something like ORTF or DIN to coincident.
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I've had good luck with almost anything that close, but ORTF cardiods are pretty hard to argue with. If you can do multiple mics then many of the techniques these other guys recommend will do the trick. I like mid-side up that close because it allows you to vary the width of the image later.
The thing I have had the least luck with, at least standalone, is onstage omnis. YMMV and all that.
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WideORTF, which is 27cm/90*
110, not 90. carry on.
I don't know if it's an option or not but recently I've run cards ortf in the center of the stage and omnis split to mix w the sbd. You don't necessarily need to use them all in post but it's nice to have them.
this would be my tendency.
The bigger question when I'm pulling sbd channels is this: what am I lacking if I just took the sbd feed? That's different at each venue/performance so think about that carefully as you look at the stage (see what's mic'd and an understanding of how loud each instrument would be if it wasn't mic'd). If they only mic some things (overheads, vocals, maybe the bass) but not others, then you want to capture as much of that other stuff as possible to compliment the sbd feed. I did a performance last night where they miced the two horns but not the wurlitzer, bass, or drums, so I knew if I was going to take the sbd feed, I'd have to do something on stage to account for those other three. Are you setting up after soundcheck? Maybe ask the person running sound FOH if they are light on some stuff in the mix for the room.
Thanks Page!
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I think it's all been said.
Spaced omnis on stage and / or cards in an ORTF [110° @ 17cm] pair center, would be great. DIN could possibly also work [90° @ 20 cm]
Spaced sub cards would be fun too.
If possible run around 18" to 24" (or higher if permissible) on stands caps slightly angled upward.
Remember the purpose of onstage mics is to capture the stage sound heard in the room that may or may not be in the house mix PA. On stage is live and in your face.
Have fun
Mix in post. add what you need and don't add what's not synergistic.
Oh if you ever have the opportunity to run figure 8 ribbons in blumlein center or even spaced figure 8's on stage you'd like that and how it naturally adds some crowd between songs.
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Thanks for all the input on this topic - I really appreciate it. I'll be able to test things during sound check, so all should go fine. I plan on doing either XY or ORTF on the front of the stage lip - running my R44. Happy Holidays!
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I prefer to have my mics split onstage (depending on the size of the stage, def try to avoid them be placed to close to the monitors onstage), I like hearing the separation in my recordings
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Thanks for all the input on this topic - I really appreciate it. I'll be able to test things during sound check, so all should go fine. I plan on doing either XY or ORTF on the front of the stage lip - running my R44. Happy Holidays!
Ive never really been a fan of XY. It usually doesnt have that wide stereo angle most of us tapers prefer. As always, YMMV! But Id go ORTF or NOS with cards.
NOS=30cm/90* and
ORTF=17cm/110*
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Thanks for all the input on this topic - I really appreciate it. I'll be able to test things during sound check, so all should go fine. I plan on doing either XY or ORTF on the front of the stage lip - running my R44. Happy Holidays!
Ive never really been a fan of XY. It usually doesnt have that wide stereo angle most of us tapers prefer. As always, YMMV! But Id go ORTF or NOS with cards.
NOS=30cm/90* and
ORTF=17cm/110*
I'd agree usually XY does not offer the stereo image separation.
Now there is NC CC or that's what we used to call Near Coincident and cross coincident.
If the 90° XY is capsule aligned the image works ok for drum overheads but onstage not so much.
Now if you space that so they are near coincident. You can also run DIN or 90° @ 20 CM or just about 7 & 7/8" aka just shy of 8".
now that onstage could work well
The space between the average human ears is: 17 cm or about 6.75" or 6 1/2 " ORTF is 110° @17 cm it's nice onstage as bean says NOS is cards at 90° and 30Cm . might sound nice, too, but onstage may have a "hole in the center" of the stereo image.
have fun whatever you do!
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GF technique>gut feeling. cards spread on stage is my preference if space allows. If a solo drummer i usually go almost as wide as drumset with mics thenkicked outat a GF angle i think needs to be. I do this all the time>always record in mono>allows me to pan easily a separation that sounds nice to my ears in post. The image below i use poles on stage as my separtion. Ted are clamped on. I ran his 414 for this https://archive.org/details/mc2012-05-26.mtx.flac16 (https://archive.org/details/mc2012-05-26.mtx.flac16)bottom image is 3 mics and their mic run into v2 (http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/7608/oelg.jpg)
https://archive.org/details/straybirds2012-09-06.mtx.flac16 (https://archive.org/details/straybirds2012-09-06.mtx.flac16)(http://imageshack.us/a/img338/5276/straybirds20120906.jpg)
my.02
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I'm diggin' that Straybirds setup and recording.
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Ive never really been a fan of XY. It usually doesnt have that wide stereo angle most of us tapers prefer..
I'd agree usually XY does not offer the stereo image separation..
Totally with you guys if we're talking X/Y cards and they are the only pair. Works really well to fill the hole between a pair of wide spaced mics though. Also, Blumlein is a good exception (X/Y 8's).
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On stage I XY if it is a single performer and ORTF if there is a band.
I am more curious about your success recording at GAMH more than your question about mic technique. Don't you get hassled by the venue?
At times I echo ziko's GF technique, but only rarely and when stage arrangement is super awkward.
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For these shows I knew the sound guy & I'm friends with the band. Otherwise, yes, it isnt the best place to try & record a show, although supposedly it is 'whatever the bands recording policy is'. They wont let you bring a mic stand in, you can only record from the side balcony, unless you want to stealth on the floor.
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I don't know if it's an option or not but recently I've run cards ortf in the center of the stage and omnis split to mix w the sbd. You don't necessarily need to use them all in post but it's nice to have them.
This is what i do alot, but with split subcards and NOS cards, with great results.
What is the split on the subs?
I'm trying to determine if running a stage lip setup for a local 'americana' band is the easiest way for them to get
material for a live album. I've done SB/AUD but got a little delay, and haven't gotten good at alignment.
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I don't know if it's an option or not but recently I've run cards ortf in the center of the stage and omnis split to mix w the sbd. You don't necessarily need to use them all in post but it's nice to have them.
This is what i do alot, but with split subcards and NOS cards, with great results.
What is the split on the subs?
I'm trying to determine if running a stage lip setup for a local 'americana' band is the easiest way for them to get
material for a live album. I've done SB/AUD but got a little delay, and haven't gotten good at alignment.
Depends on the stage set up and position of the instrument amps.
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Probably not a lot to go by, but they have lead, bass, slide, fiddle, keys, and drums, and their footprint is very small. Probably somewhere around 30 feet, give or take. Part of that might be the venues, but they seem to stay tight even when they have more room. Amps are behind each of the strings, but usually the keys amp is forward. Slide, violin, and lead across the front, keys to the outside a little behind the slide. Bass and drums at the back.
I guess I was wondering if you meant a 30 inch split or a 20 foot split on the subs.
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Probably not a lot to go by, but they have lead, bass, slide, fiddle, keys, and drums, and their footprint is very small. Probably somewhere around 30 feet, give or take. Part of that might be the venues, but they seem to stay tight even when they have more room. Amps are behind each of the strings, but usually the keys amp is forward. Slide, violin, and lead across the front, keys to the outside a little behind the slide. Bass and drums at the back.
I guess I was wondering if you meant a 30 inch split or a 20 foot split on the subs.
usually 10-20 feet depending.