Author Topic: Need some help about buying external microphone. (Read 10632 times)

avrilfan · « **on:** May 03, 2008, 08:58:53 AM »

Hello there. Its my first topic here and I hope I get any reply

Well, this summer I go record some live concerts from Avril Lavigne. I will use Zoom H2 recorder. Due to filesize limit, I will probably use 24bit / 48kHz recording mode. I have been trying out these build-in mics, but I believe there can be such better sound using some better external microphone. I am not sure whether such recordings are allowed or not, so I want to buy some stealth binaural microphones, like these for example:
http://www.audioreality.com/your_audioreality.htm
http://www.core-sound.com/mics/1.php
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2

Wanting the best possible quality, I am prepared to buy for about 100-200€, that is lets say about 150-300$. If you have any suggestions/comments I will be eternally grateful. And ofcourse I am not going to sell these recordings, will listen to them everyday and send them arround to all other Avril's fans.

Thanks in advance

jkbyram · « **Reply #1 on:** May 03, 2008, 09:21:52 AM »

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,90474.0.html

manitouman · « **Reply #2 on:** May 03, 2008, 03:14:51 PM »

Quote from: jkbyram on May 03, 2008, 09:21:52 AM

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,90474.0.html

I'll second that! I've had nothing but great results with Church Audio gear.

avrilfan · « **Reply #3 on:** May 03, 2008, 04:43:28 PM »

Thanks for replying.

I was also looking at this site ( http://www.audioreality.com/ ) and it really got my attention. What do you guys think of it ? Below there is also 2 examples.

manitouman · « **Reply #4 on:** May 03, 2008, 08:13:43 PM »

They probably are great mics. I started with Core Sound Binaurals that you have linked to in your first post. They are great mics, for the right application. I'm just assuming here, but I'm thinking that you won't just be taping one venue exclusively. There will be certain applications that would require a different mic. (I learned that here on these boards

) The Church mics have interchangeable caps which appeals to me because in certain instances I would require a different mic: cardioid or omni. Omni-directional mics are what a binaural mic is. I've made incredible pulls in an outdoor venue with omnis. But they sound different while in indoor venues. Almost hollow sounding unless you are REALLY close to the sound source. Now that I know a little more about different mics and what to expect from them, I choose the interchangeable caps so that I can spend money on one good mic but have different options depending on the venue.

Hope that makes sense?

...and +T for doing the research!

GrandMasterMark · « **Reply #5 on:** May 04, 2008, 11:51:39 AM »

I have that set of Audio Reatily binaural mics. They are my first and only set of mics. A few weeks back I had the opportunity to compare them to the MM-BSM-3 Standard Binaural Stereo Microphones from Microphone Madness.

I was taping an african drumming performance with Audio Reality Binaural> Audio Reality BB> R-09. There was another guy there with his mics set up right next to mine. He was using the ones listed above throu a battery box to a mini disc recorder. We compared during a break and his recording was noticably better. His pull was much richer. Mine sounded flat in comparison.

If size is an issue, the Audio Reality mics are much smaller. The mics themselves are about 1/4 the size of the others and the wires are much thinner. Easier to conceal for obvious reasons.

avrilfan · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2008, 08:37:10 AM »

Thanks for the replies.
Well, for now, I like this http://www.audioreality.com/your_audioreality.htm microphones . So, are these audioreality microphones going to record better sound than the Zoom H2 internal mics ? If so, I will order them.

It might sound stupid question to someone, but I am not so familiar with recordings so far, just began to learn myself about these things.

GrandMasterMark · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2008, 12:01:06 PM »

The Audio Reality mics with bb are much better than the internals on my R-09. They handle high much volume better and are better at processing the bass side of the recording.

sunjan · « **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2008, 06:16:46 PM »

Quote from: avrilfan on May 05, 2008, 08:37:10 AM

Well, for now, I like this http://www.audioreality.com/your_audioreality.htm microphones . So, are these audioreality microphones going to record better sound than the Zoom H2 internal mics ? If so, I will order them.

Audioreality are probably better than the internals, but for versatility you should really consider the Church Combo. Omnis might not work out at all your venues, depending on your seat location. With double set of caps, you can do a much broader range of venues.

And the Church pre is another advantage. I don't know how the input gain is on the H2 (check the separate thread on the H2 here), but with the Church pre you get an adjustable gain dial, whereas the audioreality bbox just powers the mics, nothing else.

Church also pointed out that the elements on the audioreality aren't shielded (or weren't back then at least):
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,79727.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,96894.0.html

I found an external link pointing out a few other concerns about the audioreality kit:
http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=20357

That said, I haven't heard any recordings done with these mics, and the guy making them seems to know what he's doing. They are cheap enough for experimenting with, so go ahead and order just to wet your feet. And post the results back here!

avrilfan · « **Reply #9 on:** May 07, 2008, 08:41:49 AM »

Thanks for reply, I have read all.

About the concerts.

This time I will go to two shows of Avril Lavigne (so the same concerts). It will be vocals, acoustic and electric guitars, piano,drums... Both will be outside concerts. And how do you suggest me to choose the position ?
I will come very early, so I might be able to freely choose the position. And at one concert I have vip ticket, so I might be in the first/second row. So I just need to focus being on centre, or is at the side better ?

jacobmyers · « **Reply #10 on:** May 07, 2008, 03:02:00 PM »

Where's the best position to record from? Dead F-ing Center and as far back from the stacks as they are apart (more or less).

I know it's a bit snobbish, but there really are few things more annoying than an otherwise excellent recording that's damned from the start by piss-poor staging. The person running the soundboard, if they're actually doing their job, will have created a stereo mix that's designed to complement the backline. Can you guess where that stereo mix is going to sound best? Uh-huh...

Get some earbuds (larger headphones aren't very "stealth") and listen for the sweet spot. It'll be slightly different for the microphones than it is for your ears. If you find it by ear, try moving a row closer to the stage. Seriously, though; use headphones!

That said; best of luck with all of your recordings!

gewwang · « **Reply #11 on:** May 07, 2008, 03:24:57 PM »

For a show like Avril Lavigne, you have to take into account that many of the fans are going to be 13 year old girls screaming over the music and singing along out of key.

A stack tape, where SPL's might be louder than the bad singing, might be your best bet. I'd doubt Avril Lavigne's people even know what a stereo image means.

sunjan · « **Reply #12 on:** May 08, 2008, 07:37:58 AM »

Quote from: avrilfan on May 07, 2008, 08:41:49 AM

This time I will go to two shows of Avril Lavigne (so the same concerts). It will be vocals, acoustic and electric guitars, piano,drums... Both will be outside concerts. And how do you suggest me to choose the position ?
I will come very early, so I might be able to freely choose the position. And at one concert I have vip ticket, so I might be in the first/second row. So I just need to focus being on centre, or is at the side better ?

Go with Jacob's advice. And bring mic windscreens for the outdoor shows.
if you're on row 1/2, there's hardly any way to avoid the crowd noise, but try to move away from the worst shouters at least, even if it means being off-center. Your stereo image won't be that great anyway, so i'd be more concerned about crowd noise, especially if you run omnis!
And it goes without saying that your setup will probably dist from the high SPL if you end up in front of a stack...

Good luck!

avrilfan · « **Reply #13 on:** May 08, 2008, 12:51:59 PM »

I just got some amazing recordings yesterday.

Stroj Machine
Wednesday, May 7, 2008
Skisova Trznica
Ljubljana, Slovenia (SI)

Location: Right Side, 1st row
Source: Zoom H2 (Internal Mics) > Zoom H2 @ 24bit / 48kHz > WAV > SD
Transfer: SD > Audiacity (edits & normalization) > FLAC level 8 (best) @ 16bit > .flac

http://212.235.177.59/d01t02.flac

As it says, I was in first row, at side where was a loud speaker right in front of me. I just targeted at it the whole time and this is amazing quality. I would be happy if you hear it and tell me your opinion.

I had low mic gain, recording at level 95, and the bars at some points got to ful (very loud bass). Might windshield fix it? But I am afraid that the internal mics just got overloaded.

Well, being able to record from 1st rows at both concerts, I am planning to do the same at Avril's concerts. So I might just buy some better little microphone, not pair, and target it at speakers again. Something like AT943. I am again open for suggestions and I would eternally be greatful for any good models. I am prepared to spend about 100-150€ (arround 150-225USD), or even up to 200€ (arround 300USD).

Edit: here in my country, they sell this mic: AT 831 R
Anyone can tell me if it would be a good choice? It says it costs 199€.

jacobmyers · « **Reply #14 on:** May 09, 2008, 12:49:47 AM »

Quote from: gewwang on May 07, 2008, 03:24:57 PM

For a show like Avril Lavigne, you have to take into account that many of the fans are going to be 13 year old girls screaming over the music and singing along out of key.

A stack tape, where SPL's might be louder than the bad singing, might be your best bet. I'd doubt Avril Lavigne's people even know what a stereo image means.

LMAO. I haven't been to a "tweenybopper" show in ...well... forever. I do my best to avoid shows with more than a few hundred relatively polite attendees, though, so Avril's quite a bit out of my idiom. I didn't even consider the presence of "offstage backing vocalists". Then again, at some of the shows I attend/record, the performer's interaction with the audience (and the unpredictability of such actions) is part of what makes the recordings worthwhile. When a singer jumps off the stage (if they were even on a stage to begin with) and offers the mic to members of the audience so they can sing lines of the song, it's always a good time (until the singer gets punched in the face). But that's another story and I'm still kicking myself for not bringing recording gear to that particular show...

avrilfan · « **Reply #15 on:** May 11, 2008, 06:30:36 PM »

You know what ? I will just order the audio reality binaurals.
I also contacted the church audio, but the person said it takes about 4 weeks to build. I would buy them, but I simply dont have that much time.

So, hoping these audio reality work good. Being in first row, somewhere arround the middle I hope, will point them forward and little up, wearing them on my glasses. I hope the sound will be high, and that they wont pick so much sound from behind (audience).
When the concerts are over, will maybe post some result here.

Tomaz

setboy · « **Reply #16 on:** May 11, 2008, 09:45:48 PM »

Quote from: avrilfan on May 11, 2008, 06:30:36 PM

You know what ? I will just order the audio reality binaurals.
I also contacted the church audio, but the person said it takes about 4 weeks to build. I would buy them, but I simply dont have that much time.
So, hoping these audio reality work good. Being in first row, somewhere arround the middle I hope, will point them forward and little up, wearing them on my glasses. I hope the sound will be high, and that they wont pick so much sound from behind (audience).
When the concerts are over, will maybe post some result here.

Tomaz

look in the yard sale. i think i saw some church mics there

sunjan · « **Reply #17 on:** May 12, 2008, 11:56:36 AM »

Quote from: avrilfan on May 08, 2008, 12:51:59 PM

Stroj Machine

Cool! AKA The Stroy, I guess??? Band member Aldo Ivancic used to be the brain behind seminal band Borghesia in the 80's.

Quote from: avrilfan on May 08, 2008, 12:51:59 PM

I had low mic gain, recording at level 95, and the bars at some points got to ful (very loud bass). Might windshield fix it?

Well, being able to record from 1st rows at both concerts, I am planning to do the same at Avril's concerts. So I might just buy some better little microphone, not pair, and target it at speakers again.

Edit: here in my country, they sell this mic: AT 831 R

Are you sure you know what you're doing now?!

1. The windshield wouldn't have made much different to the bass response, it's only good for eliminating wind noise outdoors.
2. And if you had too much bass at 1st row, learn from your mistake and move further back next gig, instead of aiming for row 1 again!
3. If you pick up external mics for the H2, it would be a very good idea to buy them in pairs. There's no way you can get a proper stereo image if you only pick up one AT mic ("not pair"?)

€199 for one AT831 sounds way overpriced IMHO. Take a look in the yard sale and get a feel for the pricing picture. You can pick up a set of Church Cards for much less (and they come in pairs!). If you buy secnond hand, you have full control of the shipping date. Even if the Slovenian customs slap on their fee, it'll still be a better deal...

/J

avrilfan · « **Reply #18 on:** May 12, 2008, 01:48:47 PM »

Yes, they were also known as The Stroj. But now they renamed, because of new members arround. If you wish to download full set (7 songs I think), heres the link - http://212.235.177.59/StrojMachine.rar

And I am currently discusing with the person from Church Audio. I am thinking of only buying the mics (CA-11 or CA-14) without preamp, since someone wrote he didnt encounter any troubles without. What do you guys think about that ?

Church-Audio · « **Reply #19 on:** May 12, 2008, 04:46:45 PM »

Quote from: avrilfan on May 12, 2008, 01:48:47 PM

Yes, they were also known as The Stroj. But now they renamed, because of new members arround. If you wish to download full set (7 songs I think), heres the link - http://212.235.177.59/StrojMachine.rar

And I am currently discusing with the person from Church Audio. I am thinking of only buying the mics (CA-11 or CA-14) without preamp, since someone wrote he didnt encounter any troubles without. What do you guys think about that ?

You must run my mics with a preamp or at the very least a battery box because the h2 does not provide enough voltage to power the mics and it also overloads pretty easy on the mic input. Another reason to get a preamp.

Chris

digifish_music · « **Reply #20 on:** May 13, 2008, 12:03:33 AM »

BTW: Don't forget the SoundProfessionals range...

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category/110

digifish

avrilfan · « **Reply #21 on:** May 16, 2008, 08:09:59 AM »

I have ordered ST-9100 preamp and CA-11 ($281.00) from you, Chris. Have already sent you an email.

And I hope you they re good. Anyone has any examples here, because I cant wait:D
Maybe some rock with female vocals...

jkbyram · « **Reply #22 on:** May 16, 2008, 08:27:36 AM »

not a female singer but a good recording with those mics

http://www.archive.org/details/mofro2008-02-05.stc-11.flac16

indietaperwloo · « **Reply #23 on:** May 17, 2008, 12:33:21 AM »

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103661.0.html

If you look at the revelation as to what these mics actually are, I've been using a pair of Sennheiser KE4-210-2's on loan from illconditioned run into a Sony HiMD recorder in PCM and they've been pretty darn good to me so far. I've recorded 7 bands with them (Stealing Dan, Kidstreet, Bocce, Stephen Trothan, Supermarine and Union of Lanterns) and most of them are my favorites so far.
Although, if you want a better mic, go with the Knowles Acoustics mics but you'd have to build the hat yourself, unless you know someone who's good with electronics and a solder and glue gun. These mics are tiny too - 0.1" so I don't think anyone will notice them.

sunjan · « **Reply #24 on:** May 18, 2008, 04:25:57 PM »

Quote from: avrilfan on May 16, 2008, 08:09:59 AM

I have ordered ST-9100 preamp and CA-11 ($281.00) from you, Chris.

Wise decision, T+!
BTW, Tomaz, I know this is a long shot, but I'm looking for anything with Borghesia: live recordings, demos etc.
Do you have any leads???!

avrilfan · « **Reply #25 on:** May 19, 2008, 04:08:52 AM »

No, I dont have anything about Borghesia, but I will definately look arround and tell you. Right now im running out of time, gotta study also, but tommorow, I will have time in the evening. Will send you some links if I find anything.

avrilfan · « **Reply #26 on:** June 21, 2008, 10:20:55 AM »

Hey guys. It has been some time since I posted here...

Any way, I just got Church Audio CA-11 and ST-9100. These are so great. Thanks for anyone suggesting them to me and to Chris for making them and sending just in time as we have agreed.

They work great with my Zoom H2 and I hope to have some great recordings out there!

This 2 next weeks I will go try them out as much as I can, but then it will be for real:)
Now I'm asking anyone here who has some experiences with recording live events. As mentioned Im going to Avril Lavigne shows. Front rows might be crazy ... so please help me decide where to go. Trying to move away from the screamers, where is better: centre or at side ? Point mics to the speakers if possible ? But I will keep an eye on the recorder, not to overload anything.
But however on 1 show I will be in first row and I dont think there will be much choice where to move. So i just point them in front?

sunjan · « **Reply #27 on:** June 21, 2008, 01:17:39 PM »

Quote from: avrilfan on June 21, 2008, 10:20:55 AM

Any way, I just got Church Audio CA-11 and ST-9100.

Front rows might be crazy ... so please help me decide where to go. Trying to move away from the screamers, where is better: centre or at side ? Point mics to the speakers if possible ? But I will keep an eye on the recorder, not to overload anything.
But however on 1 show I will be in first row and I dont think there will be much choice where to move. So i just point them in front?

Centre is your best bet for a good stereo image. For large arenas, I usually start FOB and move forward a bit until I find the sweet spot (ie before the crowd gets too close for comfort).
For bodymount or hatmounted mics, just try to get a halfdecent XY configuration, pointing the cards towards the stacks, Since you're not running an open stand, you won't have the precision for more advanced configurations anyway...

avrilfan · « **Reply #28 on:** June 21, 2008, 05:06:53 PM »

Thanks sunjan, I appriciate you help. Well I think I have luck because both of my concerts are outside and I think that is better, isnt it ? I will see how the security and stuff will be there. I was first thinking of mounting the mics on my glasses, but will see.

avrilfan · « **Reply #29 on:** June 26, 2008, 01:52:33 PM »

Hi guys!
Its just another question that I have. My recorder offers 16-bit and 24-bit recording and 48kHz and 96kHz... Due to filesize limit of my recorder (2GB), I cant use 24-bit/96kHz due to show length.
So, the best options I can use are still these 2:
24bit / 48kHz
16bit / 96kHz
So, which one do you suggest me to use?
Next wednesday I will go record some show here. I will try different places during the opening bands, but when the main band comes, I will be in middle, back as far as the stage is wide, as suggested in some previous comment.
Then I will compare all positions and try to decide which one is the best. I might even put some audios here, you can judge them.

setboy · « **Reply #30 on:** June 26, 2008, 06:14:36 PM »

Quote from: avrilfan on June 26, 2008, 01:52:33 PM

Hi guys!
Its just another question that I have. My recorder offers 16-bit and 24-bit recording and 48kHz and 96kHz... Due to filesize limit of my recorder (2GB), I cant use 24-bit/96kHz due to show length.
So, the best options I can use are still these 2:
24bit / 48kHz
16bit / 96kHz
So, which one do you suggest me to use?
Next wednesday I will go record some show here. I will try different places during the opening bands, but when the main band comes, I will be in middle, back as far as the stage is wide, as suggested in some previous comment.
Then I will compare all positions and try to decide which one is the best. I might even put some audios here, you can judge them.

you may want to ask this in a new post. you would get more replys. i would go with 24bit / 48kHz if you knowhow to use/are going to learn how to use 24 bit audio

Church-Audio · « **Reply #31 on:** June 26, 2008, 06:55:12 PM »

Quote from: avrilfan on June 26, 2008, 01:52:33 PM

Hi guys!
Its just another question that I have. My recorder offers 16-bit and 24-bit recording and 48kHz and 96kHz... Due to filesize limit of my recorder (2GB), I cant use 24-bit/96kHz due to show length.
So, the best options I can use are still these 2:
24bit / 48kHz
16bit / 96kHz
So, which one do you suggest me to use?
Next wednesday I will go record some show here. I will try different places during the opening bands, but when the main band comes, I will be in middle, back as far as the stage is wide, as suggested in some previous comment.
Then I will compare all positions and try to decide which one is the best. I might even put some audios here, you can judge them.

24-48 for sure. IMO....

avrilfan · « **Reply #32 on:** July 01, 2008, 06:42:44 AM »

Hey guys. I need to know how much time does the battery last in the preamp.
There has been a change in my travel route and I wont be able to charge the battery.

I have CA-9100 preamp and I bought a rechargeable 9V 250 mAh Conrad. Should it be ok for 2 concerts? Lets say 3-4hours with opening bands.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #33 on:** July 02, 2008, 10:56:39 AM »

Quote from: avrilfan on July 01, 2008, 06:42:44 AM

Hey guys. I need to know how much time does the battery last in the preamp.
There has been a change in my travel route and I wont be able to charge the battery.

I have CA-9100 preamp and I bought a rechargeable 9V 250 mAh Conrad. Should it be ok for 2 concerts? Lets say 3-4hours with opening bands.

Do NOT use rechargeable 9 volt batteries in my preamp

They do not put out a full 9 volts. A normal quality bat will last about 25 hours in my preamp easley.

avrilfan · « **Reply #34 on:** July 02, 2008, 11:12:33 AM »

So, what will be wrong if I use rechargeable one ? I already tried it and it works nice, but it wasnt high volume

So at higher volume, the preamp wont perform that good?
Now I bought normal ordinary 9V battery.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #35 on:** July 02, 2008, 11:18:17 AM »

Quote from: avrilfan on July 02, 2008, 11:12:33 AM

So, what will be wrong if I use rechargeable one ? I already tried it and it works nice, but it wasnt high volume So at higher volume, the preamp wont perform that good?
Now I bought normal ordinary 9V battery.

RC batteries are only about 8.4 volts instead of the actual 9.6 they should be. The lower the voltage the lower the performance and the time it takes for a 9 volt RC battery to get to 7.2 is not very long.. I hope one day somebody will make a 9v rc that runs at 9.6 volts but until that happens I cant recommend them.

Chris

avrilfan · « **Reply #36 on:** July 05, 2008, 10:18:42 AM »

Hey Chris,
I have tried my rechargeable 9V battery on voltmeter and it has already been used for a couple of hours (arround 3hours). It shows 9,33V.

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #37 on:** July 06, 2008, 08:21:25 PM »

Quote from: Church-Audio on July 02, 2008, 11:18:17 AM

RC batteries are only about 8.4 volts instead of the actual 9.6 they should be.

There are these: http://www.thomas-distributing.com/mh-96v230.htm

Although I iirc read somewhere that they are marginally larger than regular 9V cells and won't always fit in some devices as a direct replacement for alkalines.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #38 on:** July 07, 2008, 11:36:01 AM »

Quote from: avrilfan on July 05, 2008, 10:18:42 AM

Hey Chris,
I have tried my rechargeable 9V battery on voltmeter and it has already been used for a couple of hours (arround 3hours). It shows 9,33V.

If you have a rechargeable that is over 9 volts by all means use them in my preamp. But you also need to know that some types of rechargeable batteries have a very steep discharge curve. So they could be fine one minute and crash and burn the next. This might not be the case with your batteries. I would much rather have my customers use rechargeable batteries if they would be more then 9 volts if only because of the environment.

Chris

avrilfan · « **Reply #39 on:** July 08, 2008, 07:50:08 PM »

Here is a sample of 'Im with you' from yesterday's Avril Lavigne's show.
http://sharebee.com/eebf044e
I think it is perfect bootleg.

setboy · « **Reply #40 on:** July 08, 2008, 08:01:36 PM »

Quote from: avrilfan on July 08, 2008, 07:50:08 PM

Here is a sample of 'Im with you' from yesterday's Avril Lavigne's show.
http://sharebee.com/eebf044e
I think it is perfect bootleg.

look up the word "bootleg" here. We don't like the word.