Topic: Final decision: SP-CMC-?

[Mr.Scully]

It took me more than a week to read all the discussions here and download some samples. I've already bought an Edirol R-09HR from ebay yesterday and now I need to buy a mic. I'm known for changing my opinion almost every day :-) but I have already decided I like the sound of Audio Technica mics from Sound Professionals most. I've also decided I want the best stealth mic they manufacture so I increased my budget from $100 to some $250+ :-) And now I have to decide between:

SP-CMC-8 (AT943) $259 cardioid or omni?
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-8

SP-CMC-4U (AT853) $199 cardioid or omni?
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U

I've heard lots of good things about AT853 but is it really better than AT943? (then why is it cheaper? because of the bigger size?). I'd love to use the croakie mount which probably won't be possible in case of SP-CMC-4U? Apparently somebody here uses an AT943 body with AT853 elements but it's the elements that make the whole thing big, right?

And my second problem is obvious (and everlasting) - cardioids or omnis? I'm well aware of the differences and I know the best option is to have both of them :-) But which ones are more universal? The omnis seem to have a better "live feel" but talking in the audience has always annoyed me :-) Cardioids pick the sound better but I've been warned not to use them because something can go wrong very easily - for example if I turn my head too often.

My taping (always stealth):
Music - 99% = loud (hard)rock gigs
Venues - 70% indoors standing among loud audience in front of the stage, 15% indoor sitting, 15% outdoor gigs

P.S. I also did hear some nice things about the MM mics but I've downloaded a sample of Smashing Pumpkins done with MM-HLSC-1 and I wasn't impressed.

[Arni99]

In your case(hardrock) I´d go for the low-sens-modded SP-CMC-8(AT943).
Some here say the AT943s don´t benefit from the low-sens-mod, others say they had distortion with the standard AT943s....

Cards are the better "all for one" mic ...indoor shows with chatty crowds and bad acoustics =>that´s where cards should be chosen.

A good taper NEVER turns his head or moves during the show  , you need a good (and pretty) masseuse after the show so be prepared !

You also need a battery box...12V(50 hours) are smallest...9V are slightly larger and longer lasting(300 hours).

For in front of stack taping with earplugs you could use omnis too ....more low frequencies.

THE GOOD thing using sp-cmc-8 are the iNTERCHANGEABLE capsules!

You can always get omni caps later for 120$ NEW or used here in the yard sale and use them on the same mic-bodies.

Low-sens-modded AT853(SP-CMC-4U) perform very well too at high SPL but are bigger than AT943s.

another option: Church cardioid mics from Chris Church here who sells his mics with interchangeable capsules now aswell.

[run_run_run]

did you see this?

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,107531.0.html

[Mr.Scully]

How big problem is turning my head when recording with cardioids? I mean the sound is all around me anyway because the gig is loud... for example I can be standing right in front of the stage and there's this catwalk that leads into the crowd... for acoustic set etc. so I HAVE TO turn my head for a few songs at that point Does the sound quality dramatically decrease? Or will I just have to increase the level/volume?

Interchangeable capsules are nice but then it's another $120... at first I wanted to get a $100 mic and now we're at some $400, not counting a preamp/battery! :-) The budget is not unlimited And I don't know how I'd decide before each gig anyway because I don't know the acoustics of each venue...

The low-sens mod is probably not important for me as I'll get a battery box with bass roll off anyway.

run_run_run - yes, I did but the SoundPro guys sell the SP-CMC-8 body for $120 (using a discount voucher) and this guy's price was first $150, now $100 + shipping to EU... so no price difference for me.

[Liquid Drum]

How big problem is turning my head when recording with cardioids? I mean the sound is all around me anyway because the gig is loud... for example I can be standing right in front of the stage and there's this catwalk that leads into the crowd... for acoustic set etc. so I HAVE TO turn my head for a few songs at that point Does the sound quality dramatically decrease? Or will I just have to increase the level/volume?

You will encounter 'phasing' if you do this. Basically the sound will keep changing from left to right and vice versa every time you turn your head. Believe me, it can be annoying when listening back to a recording.

If you want to move your head freely (like I prefer myself) then mount the mics to your collar either side of your neck.

[Arni99]

Bass-roll-off using cards is something I would NEVER use!
Cards have a "natural" roll-off at low frequencies.

Omnis usually pick up 20-20.000 Hz and cards 40(or 50) - 20.000 Hz.

For omnis its a different story.

AND the bbox will have no IMPACT at all if the mic itself distorts at high SPL, because the BBOX comes after the mic capsule in the chain.

=> you can´t get rid of distortion by using a bbox with bass-roll-off if the mic is the reason for distortion.

[su6oxone]

It took me more than a week to read all the discussions here and download some samples. I've already bought an Edirol R-09HR from ebay yesterday and now I need to buy a mic. I'm known for changing my opinion almost every day :-) but I have already decided I like the sound of Audio Technica mics from Sound Professionals most.

With your higher budget, I would recommend the SP CMC-4U w/low sens mod like mentioned above ^^^.  If you primarily stealth, it's not a bad idea to spend a bit more and get the SP CMC-8 w/low sens mod.  I would forget the omnis and get either card or hyper card caps.  I've used hypers with the CMC-4 several times recently and liked the results in a variety of venues (small clubs, outdoors, larger venues).  For the CMC-8, you can choose which type of cap to start out with, while the CMC-4U you can only get cards and then buy other caps.

[Mr.Scully]

So is the SP-CMC-4U actually any better than SP-CMC-8? I haven't come across many samples (if any) from rock gigs that could be compared...

Arni99 - the mic can handle some 120 dB so is there actually a reason to be afraid of distortion?

[su6oxone]

So is the SP-CMC-4U actually any better than SP-CMC-8? I haven't come across many samples (if any) from rock gigs that could be compared...

Arni99 - the mic can handle some 120 dB so is there actually a reason to be afraid of distortion?

I wouldn't say that either is better, but just that the CMC-8 is smaller and more stealthy, especially if you get the skinny cable option.  My CMC-4 distorted at several average rock concerts until I got the low sens mod, and several people have said that the CMC-8 can distort at high SPL as well.  The low sens mod is a safe bet, just use it with a preamp like the 9100 if you need to tape quieter acts or songs. 

[nameloc01]

Cmc4U.phantom power. No low sens mod.
End of worries.

[Arni99]

So is the SP-CMC-4U actually any better than SP-CMC-8? I haven't come across many samples (if any) from rock gigs that could be compared...

Arni99 - the mic can handle some 120 dB so is there actually a reason to be afraid of distortion?

Those figures (120 db) are mostly valid for correct powering..3 wire...with phantom power adpaters.
You´ll be using the 2 wire setup with the 3.5mm(1/8") plug which is NOT how the mics are designed for being used by Audio Technica.

Get the sp-cmc-8 cardioids with the low-sens-mod and all will be fine.
Use a battery box for providing proper power to the mics.
Your edirol plugin-power does NOT provide 9V....

[Mr.Scully]

Arni99 - will I need the high SPL mod on the mic even if I use this battery module (which itself is named "high SPL battery module" in the SP e-shop)?
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8

[Arni99]

Arni99 - will I need the high SPL mod on the mic even if I use this battery module (which itself is named "high SPL battery module" in the SP e-shop)?
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8

YES.
The 59$ bbox will power your mics with 9V.
This battery box should always be used, even when taping silent concerts.
If not, your mics performance will be worse regarding dynamic range and SPL-handling.

[Mr.Scully]

To summarize it, answers to my questions are basically these:

- SP-CMC-8 cardioids are more universal, + later get omni caps for $120
- apply the low sens mod ($25)
- get the battery box ($79), use the bass roll off filter only for omnis (and wisely, of course!)
- + light-weight cable for stealth taping ($20)
- + rotating AT clips? any better than the standard ones?

Some of you guys seem to prefer the SP-CMC-4U but if there's no big difference in sound quality, I'd obviously prefer the SP-CMC-8 because of its smaller size...

[Arni99]

- + rotating AT clips? any better than the standard ones?

Some of you guys seem to prefer the SP-CMC-4U but if there's no big difference in sound quality, I'd obviously prefer the SP-CMC-8 because of its smaller size...

The standard clips are ok, clip them to your tshirts-collar left + right side of your neck.

[Liquid Drum]

Standard cable is easy to stealth, save yourself $20.

[Arni99]

I had the leight-weight-cables cut at 1m10cm instead of standard 1m80cm(6 feet).
Never needed the extra 70cm.

[su6oxone]

This battery box should always be used, even when taping silent concerts.

 

[perks]

Why the BB over a SP 3 wire pre?

[Arni99]

Why the BB over a SP 3 wire pre?

because his budget is limited.

[su6oxone]

I had the leight-weight-cables cut at 1m10cm instead of standard 1m80cm(6 feet).
Never needed the extra 70cm.

This is a good point.  I also had my CMC-4 sent in for the low sens mod and asked them to chop off the cable to 4 ft.  They can definitely adjust them for you BEFORE they ship it to you since they have to cut the cables for the low sens mod anyway.

[nameloc01]

The cmc8s do not benefit from the low-sens mod. Save your money.

[Dede2002]

Well, I think this is it. I'll get a 943 pair. Based on what I`ve been reading, no low sens mod for me.
I love my HLSC-1 ( which can tape a jet engine taking off , no sweat), but I think the SP-CMC-8 provides a more robust bass. Not much, but more.
I do not tape ( and never will)  metal type music - or any other genre for that matter- in huge, large arenas. The sound is usually terrible. I usually go to small and medium size clubs ( electric blues, blues-rock, jazz, instrumental music in general). Granted, very loud music, but not mind freaking bass and kick drums.
You guys think I would be fine? 
Thanks very much in advance 

[Arni99]

Well, I think this is it. I'll get a 943 pair. Based on what I`ve been reading, no low sens mod for me.
I love my HLSC-1 ( which can tape a jet engine taking off , no sweat), but I think the SP-CMC-8 provides a more robust bass. Not much, but more.
I do not tape ( and never will)  metal type music - or any other genre for that matter- in huge, large arenas. The sound is usually terrible. I usually go to small and medium size clubs ( electric blues, blues-rock, jazz, instrumental music in general). Granted, very loud music, but not mind freaking bass and kick drums.
You guys think I would be fine? 
Thanks very much in advance 

Yes, for small jazz-clubs the low-sens-mod is not needed...otherwise(with the low sens mod) you would have problems using line-in of your R-09HR...without an external preamp.
Same happened to me with my former R09 and my dpa4061s....mic-in ok-signal but line-in.....even max. 30 gain resulted in peaks at max. -20 on the levelmeter at loud rockshows.
I even had my former HSLC mics distorted at big indoor arena shows with loads of SPL coming from the stacks(especially low-frequencies).

Thats why i use low-sens-mics only now .

[Dede2002]

Well, I think this is it. I'll get a 943 pair. Based on what I`ve been reading, no low sens mod for me.
I love my HLSC-1 ( which can tape a jet engine taking off , no sweat), but I think the SP-CMC-8 provides a more robust bass. Not much, but more.
I do not tape ( and never will)  metal type music - or any other genre for that matter- in huge, large arenas. The sound is usually terrible. I usually go to small and medium size clubs ( electric blues, blues-rock, jazz, instrumental music in general). Granted, very loud music, but not mind freaking bass and kick drums.
You guys think I would be fine? 
Thanks very much in advance 

Yes, for small jazz-clubs the low-sens-mod is not needed...otherwise(with the low sens mod) you would have problems using line-in of your R-09HR...without an external preamp.
Same happened to me with my former R09 and my dpa4061s....mic-in ok-signal but line-in.....even max. 30 gain resulted in peaks at max. -20 on the levelmeter at loud rockshows.
I even had my former HSLC mics distorted at big indoor arena shows with loads of SPL coming from the stacks(especially low-frequencies).

Thats why i use low-sens-mics only now .

Hey, my friend. Good talking to you. 
So, without an external preamp I'll have problems to achieve good levels running the low sens mod SP-CMC-8, right?
Is that what you're saying?

[Arni99]

Well, I think this is it. I'll get a 943 pair. Based on what I`ve been reading, no low sens mod for me.
I love my HLSC-1 ( which can tape a jet engine taking off , no sweat), but I think the SP-CMC-8 provides a more robust bass. Not much, but more.
I do not tape ( and never will)  metal type music - or any other genre for that matter- in huge, large arenas. The sound is usually terrible. I usually go to small and medium size clubs ( electric blues, blues-rock, jazz, instrumental music in general). Granted, very loud music, but not mind freaking bass and kick drums.
You guys think I would be fine? 
Thanks very much in advance 

Yes, for small jazz-clubs the low-sens-mod is not needed...otherwise(with the low sens mod) you would have problems using line-in of your R-09HR...without an external preamp.
Same happened to me with my former R09 and my dpa4061s....mic-in ok-signal but line-in.....even max. 30 gain resulted in peaks at max. -20 on the levelmeter at loud rockshows.
I even had my former HSLC mics distorted at big indoor arena shows with loads of SPL coming from the stacks(especially low-frequencies).

Thats why i use low-sens-mics only now .

Hey, my friend. Good talking to you. 
So, without an external preamp I'll have problems to achieve good levels running the low sens mod SP-CMC-8, right?
Is that what you're saying?

YES
NOT if you are using mic-in on your edirol , then low-sens modded mics are great aswell on the r09.

With standard sensitive sp-cmc-8(no low-sens mod) line-in is no problem on the r09.

[Mr.Scully]

Dede2002 - so do you think the SP-CMC-8 is better than MM-HLSC-1?

Arni99 - I've just browsed this forum a little more and Chris (CA) claims that his mod is NOT useful for the AT943 mics, in fact it can worsen the sound.

[Belexes]

Dede2002 - so do you think the SP-CMC-8 is better than MM-HLSC-1?

Just my opinion as I own both that I have preference for the MM-HLSC1's.  To me, the sound is more detailed and I honestly think the MM's give more bass response.

[Arni99]

Dede2002 - so do you think the SP-CMC-8 is better than MM-HLSC-1?

Arni99 - I've just browsed this forum a little more and Chris (CA) claims that his mod is NOT useful for the AT943 mics, in fact it can worsen the sound.

Thats what I meant yesterday when I said "some say yes and others no......" others reported distortion using the at943s.......
I had the sp-cmc-8 before and now have the low-sens modded version.
No difference in sound.

[Dede2002]

Dede2002 - so do you think the SP-CMC-8 is better than MM-HLSC-1?

Arni99 - I've just browsed this forum a little more and Chris (CA) claims that his mod is NOT useful for the AT943 mics, in fact it can worsen the sound.

Hard to tell. I don't have the SP-CMC-8. But I can tell you one thing about the HLSC-1: it sounds awesome to my ears. Like other  members said before, it`s very detailed and warm sounding ( I don't know if more detailed than the SP-CMC-8) . Maybe my pair has a problem right now. Latelly they are sounding tinny, thin and hollow. Maybe its a coincidence and/or bad luck with some venue acoustics. Maybe I got used with the sound of my MM-HLSO-micro (omni). To my ears, nothing beats a good omni pair under the correct conditions.
Anyway, I'm not that excited about the SP-CMC-8 anymore  . I'm not crazy about the idea of having a mic than might or might not perform OK depending of the SPL. In my exeprience, with a BB and running Line In, you only have distortion with the HLSC-! if you are taping a tornado  \ Anyway, I don't think I have too much card options being a stealth taper. 

[Mr.Scully]

Dede2002 - as I said, I tried to find some samples made by MM-HLSC-1, I found a Smashing Pumpkins gig on archive.org and downloaded two songs. One was acoustic (and sounded quite tiny), the other one was a rock song and the sound was definitely NOT detailed. I wasn't impressed. Plus there's this interchangeable capsules thing in SP... I think I'll really get the SP-CMC-8.

Btw. what's the thing with having SP-CMC-8 with the AT853 capsules? More people in this forum seem to have it.

[Dede2002]

Dede2002 - as I said, I tried to find some samples made by MM-HLSC-1, I found a Smashing Pumpkins gig on archive.org and downloaded two songs. One was acoustic (and sounded quite tiny), the other one was a rock song and the sound was definitely NOT detailed. I wasn't impressed. Plus there's this interchangeable capsules thing in SP... I think I'll really get the SP-CMC-8.

Btw. what's the thing with having SP-CMC-8 with the AT853 capsules? More people in this forum seem to have it.

I have to tell you that. Archive.org is not, in my opinion, a good tool for comparing mics ( or gear in general), unless you are lucky enough to find two tapers running the same recorder, on the same show, at the same location just with different mics  . Highly unlikely, hum? On this hobby, no matter how great your gear or your skills, the sound source and location are always the most important issues. A bad mix, bad PA, bad venue acoustics and a lousy location are the things to consider first.
Trust me: the HLSC-1 is a great mic.

[su6oxone]

Btw. what's the thing with having SP-CMC-8 with the AT853 capsules? More people in this forum seem to have it.

If you use an adaptor you can use the at853 caps with the 943.  But if you are stealthing mostly, I would just get 943 caps to keep the benefit of small size of the 943 mics. 

[Arni99]

Dede2002 - so do you think the SP-CMC-8 is better than MM-HLSC-1?

Arni99 - I've just browsed this forum a little more and Chris (CA) claims that his mod is NOT useful for the AT943 mics, in fact it can worsen the sound.

Anyway, I don't think I have too much card options being a stealth taper. 

Sure, go for DPA 4080ies !
 

[Belexes]

Trust me: the HLSC-1 is a great mic.

Seconded.

[Liquid Drum]

But the AT943 are better.   


 

I've had both of them but I did have a dodgy pair of HLSC-1's so I just do not trust that company anymore. Its a good mic of course and after I had them fixed by Chris Church they worked very well, but I just prefer the AT943's overall (plus they are much smaller to stealth!).

Just my opinion of course. 

[Mr.Scully]

I've just downloaded plenty of samples from dimeadozen - SP-CMC-8, CA-11 and MM-HLSC-1. Due to different venues, mic placement etc. plenty of recordings were brilliant while plenty (recorded by the same mics) were ruined. So it's hard to make a decision CA-11 sounded brilliant on acoustic stuff but rock was somehow "blurred", I couldn't almost hear the vocals (although for example drums sounded VERY natural). Something similar with the MM-HLSC-1. Blurred, muddy recording; acoustic stuff sounds brilliant. SP-CMC-8 seems to be very popular among tapers, I've downloaded about 16 samples. Sounds flat, too much treble but has by far the clearest sound to my ears.

Not an easy decision, is it? I'm almost tempted to keep my Sony ECM-719 as it has served me very well over the years...

[Dede2002]

But the AT943 are better.   


 

I've had both of them but I did have a dodgy pair of HLSC-1's so I just do not trust that company anymore. Its a good mic of course and after I had them fixed by Chris Church they worked very well, but I just prefer the AT943's overall (plus they are much smaller to stealth!).

Just my opinion of course. 

Liquid Drum,

Of course I just can't say otherwise: I don't own a 943 pair for comparison sake 
But I do second your remark on the stealth thing: the AT943 is in fact smaller.
Take care 

[Dede2002]

Dede2002 - so do you think the SP-CMC-8 is better than MM-HLSC-1?

Arni99 - I've just browsed this forum a little more and Chris (CA) claims that his mod is NOT useful for the AT943 mics, in fact it can worsen the sound.

Anyway, I don't think I have too much card options being a stealth taper. 

Sure, go for DPA 4080ies !
 

Yes  .
Any news about those mics? I'm told they're not good for this hobby...

[Mr.Scully]

Sorry guys, some more questions

I already bought the AT943 cardioid capsules and now I'm after the bodies and omnis and a battery box. However, I've got some questions mainly about the low-sens mod:

1. while many people seem to agree that the low-sens mod is useless for AT943 cardioids, I was also told that the AT943 OMNIS need it? Apparently omnis get distorted more easily?
2. if I have the low-sens mod done anyway, can it affect the sound in a bad way? Significantly more noise or something?
3. if I have the low-sens mod done, does that mean I don't really need the battery box anymore? Will the line-in of Edirol R-09 HR provide enough voltage?
4. AT943 with a battery box can handle 125 dB. Can rock gigs be even louder? I think anything over 120 dB can seriously damage ears... so I'd say rock gigs are somewhere around 110-115 dB...

[Dede2002]

Sorry guys, some more questions

I already bought the AT943 cardioid capsules and now I'm after the bodies and omnis and a battery box. However, I've got some questions mainly about the low-sens mod:

1. while many people seem to agree that the low-sens mod is useless for AT943 cardioids, I was also told that the AT943 OMNIS need it? Apparently omnis get distorted more easily?
2. if I have the low-sens mod done anyway, can it affect the sound in a bad way? Significantly more noise or something?
3. if I have the low-sens mod done, does that mean I don't really need the battery box anymore? Will the line-in of Edirol R-09 HR provide enough voltage?
4. AT943 with a battery box can handle 125 dB. Can rock gigs be even louder? I think anything over 120 dB can seriously damage ears... so I'd say rock gigs are somewhere around 110-115 dB...

1- I don't know 
2- No. It only raises the mic self-noise. Not a problem with loud music.
3- No. You still need a battery box. Only mic in provides plug in power.
4- Yes, you're right. If a rock concert goes up to 125 db, you shouldn't be there 

[Belexes]

I have the low sens 943's with all the caps now except hypers.

I don't think the mod makes them sound bad at all, it's just that the 943's have less tendency to distort than the 853's.
Unless it's a very loud show, I think you may need a pre to boost back the gain you lose with the low sens mod. I use the 9100.

For samples of the low sens Omnis, I posted a bunch of shows on recently Dime. (classic rock stuff...Starship, Sebastian Bach, Tesla...even Poison.    )

[nameloc01]

What your mics can handle is directly affected by your position in the venue. Two exact rigs in the same venue, music at 125 dbs, one rig directly FOS..the other in the back of the venue...which one is likely to clip first?
Ideally, you should go with whatever route will give the absolute maximum spl handling ability. Once you get into a FOS situation and find out that your mics just couldn't handle it (clipping) you don't get a second "at bat". If your already getting mics and a recorder in, a battery box is cake,..really. And on that thought, you might as well do it right and use a 3 wire BB (for the AT mics) then there won't be any guessing,estimating,maybes'..ect. I cannot even begin to comprehend going into a situation not being prepared to the best of your/my ability.

[Mr.Scully]

In other words, if I have the low-sens mod done, I DON'T risk anything at all (except that quiet gigs may not be recorded properly without a preamp - but I don't record quiet gigs :-)

Btw. using directly the mic input is not recommended because it generates some disturbing noise/hiss?

[su6oxone]

In other words, if I have the low-sens mod done, I DON'T risk anything at all (except that quiet gigs may not be recorded properly without a preamp - but I don't record quiet gigs :-)

Btw. using directly the mic input is not recommended because it generates some disturbing noise/hiss?

Correct.  The low sensitivity mod will basically remove any chance of distortion due to high SPL (Chris Church, the inventor of the low sens/4.7k mod, has said that some 943s may need the mod and some may not), but it will reduce the gain, which is not an issue for loud rock shows, but may be for a quieter show.  But using a preamp like the Church CA-9100 will give you back the gain you need for quieter sources.  It's the easiest way and I am quite happy with the low-sens mod on my AT853, which used to distort frequently before I got it (although only with my R-09 and not with my older MD recorder... still a mystery). 

Mic input is noisier than the line-in (that is, a higher noise floor) but will give you more gain, so you can try using it with the low-sens modded mics for quieter sources as well (instead of using an external preamp).

Hope this helps, good luck!