Author Topic: Sound Professionals Audio Technica premium cards? (Read 11695 times)

gruven42 · « **on:** February 17, 2004, 11:19:29 AM »

I have searched this site for the information I am seeking and did not find anything.

Hello, I was looking to get some stealth mics and I came across Sound Professionals Audio Technica premium cards. They offer two models: AT853 (http://www.audio-technica.com/prodpro/addinfo/AT853Rx.pdf) and the "slimline" AT ES943 (http://www.audio-technica.com/prodpro/addinfo/ES943_C.pdf). The slimlines run $70 more than the standards and are 3.6 mm narrower.

Has anyone had any experience with these?

I'd be running them into my UA5 (yep, gonna try it), so it raises the Maximum Input Sound Level to 138 dB on both models. The freq response graph looks to be about the same, except on the 853, the bass drops off at 60 Hz, although both their claimed response goes down to 30.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2004, 12:09:28 PM »

Quote from: gruven42 on February 17, 2004, 11:19:29 AM

I have searched this site for the information I am seeking and did not find anything.

Hello, I was looking to get some stealth mics and I came across Sound Professionals Audio Technica premium cards. They offer two models: AT853 (http://www.audio-technica.com/prodpro/addinfo/AT853Rx.pdf) and the "slimline" AT ES943 (http://www.audio-technica.com/prodpro/addinfo/ES943_C.pdf). The slimlines run $70 more than the standards and are 3.6 mm narrower.

Has anyone had any experience with these?

I'd be running them into my UA5 (yep, gonna try it), so it raises the Maximum Input Sound Level to 138 dB on both models. The freq response graph looks to be about the same, except on the 853, the bass drops off at 60 Hz, although both their claimed response goes down to 30.

using the samson power modules from SP's website it can be done, but why not get the AT853 or AT943 mics with IN-LINE power modules straight from an AT dealer whom doesn't modify the mics? Sure it's a little more, but wouldn't you be satisfied and more comforted to know that it WILL work instead of HOPING it works with your UA-5, like with the SP setup?

I have had experience with only the CMC-2's and have had no problems when NOT using an outboard preamp. Nick Gregory might be able to tell you more about his problems with the CMC-4's. As for the 8's, I haven't heard of any problems. My recommendation is still to get the unmodified AT853Rx mics, not the mics from SP. Possible retailers are sonicsense.com, zzsounds.com, micsupply.com....

I hope you found some valuable information lodged somewhere in that shameless fluff

~schwills

nickgregory · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2004, 12:51:20 PM »

It all depends on what you are taping. The SP 853 models worked well for me with outside shows, where the loud bass was not overpowering. However, for shows where I was either (1) inside an arena for a loud, bassy show, or (2)outside close to a bass cabinet (which was head level), I would get distortion....I think the 9V powering method that SP uses does not allow the 853 mics to take advantage of the full range available to them, and thus the SPL overloading I experienced.

But that being said, keep in mind what you are recording....they perform pretty well for the shows that were not bassy, so to speak.

gruven42 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2004, 01:10:07 PM »

Thanks for the responses guys. Schwillberitis, what I meant by "trying" the UA5 is that I'd "try" to stealth it. I've heard people say it's tough because it's not the smallest piece of equip, but it's also not too large to fit in a large jacket pocket or something.

I'm very sure the mics will work with my UA-5, since it supplies 48V Phantom power, and the mics can handle 11-52V.

Thanks for the advice, nick. Yeah, SP rated the 853s at only 125dB using the batt box, but AT rates them at 138dB when Phantom powered.

nickgregory · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2004, 01:11:28 PM »

you have to be careful though, the SP versions of those mics are wired differntly than the AT version and as a result, running anything over 9V to them may fry them.

gruven42 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2004, 01:25:58 PM »

Well, as an add-on package, they offer "the Phantom power adapter kit. This will allow you to use the mics with "plug in power", a battery module (as in option 1) or with 9-52v Phantom power which is available on many professional mixers, mic preamps and recorders. When powered with Phantom power, the dynamic range and maximum SPL (sound pressure level) are increased even further (see specs below). The phantom power kit includes two phantom power adapters (Samson PM-4) and two high quality gold plated cable adapters as shown in the picture below."

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=120&item=SP-CMC-8&type=store

So, it should be fine. I think they just rewire it so there's a gold mini-plug instead of inline XLRs.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2004, 01:37:07 PM »

supposedly, with the power modules from SP, they can be run with 48V. It's similar to the mod leegeddy did minus the mini-xlr connections. I'm not sure how this affects the SPL rating, though.

But let's take a minute...
the CMC-4's are $170, then you still need to add the $100 power adapter kit (power modules) to get it to jive correctly with your ua-5, now you are getting up to the price of stock AT mics. The stock AT mics already come WITH the AT modules in-line that were specifically made for the particular model (whichever you pick).

Maybe the adapter kit SP offers is a viable setup. Nick, you can even try that out before plunking down the scrilla for the Rx's. But I know where I'd put my money (if I had it).

gruven42 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2004, 01:46:04 PM »

Yeah, I was thinking about that, BUT the reason I like the SPs deal, is that if I wanted, I could forgoe the UA5 and plug the mics straight into my D7, OR buy a batt box and use that. I like the opportunity for more options.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2004, 01:50:10 PM »

you can do the same with the AT853a model but I see your point.

drumminj · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2004, 01:59:49 PM »

Quote from: nickgregory on February 17, 2004, 12:51:20 PM

It all depends on what you are taping. The SP 853 models worked well for me with outside shows, where the loud bass was not overpowering. However, for shows where I was either (1) inside an arena for a loud, bassy show, or (2)outside close to a bass cabinet (which was head level), I would get distortion....I think the 9V powering method that SP uses does not allow the 853 mics to take advantage of the full range available to them, and thus the SPL overloading I experienced.

But that being said, keep in mind what you are recording....they perform pretty well for the shows that were not bassy, so to speak.

I had the exact same experience. The SP vers of the 853s worked great for coffeehouse, singer-songwriter stuff and outdoor stuff. However, in some loud bars, I'd have issues, and don't even think about mic'ing the stack. It's not just bass, either. I have a completely unusable recording of an acoustic singer-songwriter duo that's distorted when I was maybe 10 feet back from the PA. It was just that loud. Of course, that was the same night I spilled a glass of wine on my JB3....

The SP version definitely have their place, and are a good mic for the price point. However, the AT version of the mics perform much better.

J

drumminj · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2004, 02:03:27 PM »

Quote from: Schwillberitis on February 17, 2004, 01:37:07 PM

Maybe the adapter kit SP offers is a viable setup. Nick, you can even try that out before plunking down the scrilla for the Rx's. But I know where I'd put my money (if I had it).

Damnit man, will you quit doggin' my sale?!!!!!

Hah. J/K. I haven't seen the SP option for providing phantom power to these mics. Might be cool to have the flexibility. However, the AT power modules have switchable bass rolloff built in (150Hz, 6dB/octave) and it comes with a metal hanger. I mean, c'mon, what more could you want than A METAL HANGER!!!!

J

nickgregory · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2004, 02:16:51 PM »

Quote from: drumminj on February 17, 2004, 02:03:27 PM

Damnit man, will you quit doggin' my sale?!!!!!

Don't worry, sale is already made

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2004, 02:22:12 PM »

wasn't intentional, just an option. Go Nick! still want the discs?

gruven42 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2004, 02:22:32 PM »

Quote from: drumminj on February 17, 2004, 01:59:49 PM

I had the exact same experience. The SP vers of the 853s worked great for coffeehouse, singer-songwriter stuff and outdoor stuff. However, in some loud bars, I'd have issues, and don't even think about mic'ing the stack. It's not just bass, either. I have a completely unusable recording of an acoustic singer-songwriter duo that's distorted when I was maybe 10 feet back from the PA. It was just that loud. Of course, that was the same night I spilled a glass of wine on my JB3....

The SP version definitely have their place, and are a good mic for the price point. However, the AT version of the mics perform much better.

J

So, you tried the SP mics with a UA5 and they still overloaded?

nickgregory · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2004, 02:23:40 PM »

Quote from: Schwillberitis on February 17, 2004, 02:22:12 PM

wasn't intentional, just an option. Go Nick! still want the discs?

I was going to email you...dont worry about the discs...thanks though...mind is already made up

drumminj · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2004, 02:42:13 PM »

Quote from: gruven42 on February 17, 2004, 02:22:32 PM

So, you tried the SP mics with a UA5 and they still overloaded?

I ran the SP mics into an SP analog preamp, a Sony D8, and a Denecke AD-20. I bought the UA-5 when I upgraded to the AT version of the 853 b/c I needed something to provide phantom power, and I thought the AD-20 was a bit thin-sounding for the 853s.

The preamp isn't going to affect whether the mics overload. There are definitely several different places you can have problems - mic can overload, preamp can brickwall, A/D can clip. The 853's definitely overloaded with the AD-20 and the DAT. I don't think i taped anything other than acoustic singer-songwriter stuff with the SP-PREAMP.

Again, i'm not trying to diss the SP version of the 853's. I think they're decent mics. I'm just relating my experience, and why I upgraded. If you're looking for small mics with interchangable caps(or at least some kind of directional pickup pattern), I don't think the AT version of the 853's can really be beat for the price. The same will probably be true of the SP version with the phantom power module. Legeddy's (was that who did the mod? I remember the thread, but not who did it) mod to the SP vers of the 853's looked pretty cool. But the cost was right up there with the AT version. Remember, you'll need some kind of batt box if you're not running them hooked up to phantom. That's another $80 or so.

J

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2004, 03:08:45 PM »

I think you'll be alright with the power adapter kit, gruven. It's similar to the AT853a setup but just a different brand of power modules.

blu666z · « **Reply #17 on:** February 17, 2004, 03:17:35 PM »

SP AT943s -> MD
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=4335

w/ UA-5 -> DAT
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=6417

drumminj · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2004, 03:53:50 PM »

If only archive.org had mp3s available so I didn't have to download an entire SHN just to hear a sample of the mic+pre combo.....

oh, wait =)

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #19 on:** February 17, 2004, 04:31:09 PM »

them's be fightin' words

drumminj · « **Reply #20 on:** February 17, 2004, 04:46:53 PM »

Yeah, I know. my first thought was "ooh, I'll go listen to those", and was disappointed the mp3's weren't up there yet. But then I thought, "how hard is it to d/l one FLAC or SHN file?!" I'm still kind of torn. I don't want mp3s of my shows up there, but in this case, I want them to be there. I have no clue who this "moe." fellow is, but I'm kind of curious to hear the music since it's talked about all the time. There's no FLAC or SHN plugin for iTunes, and MacAMP is a shitty piece of software(IMNSHO), so I can't even listen to them easily on my Powerbook.

I'm not advocating either policy. Just bitchin, and trying to start an all-out royal rumble.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #21 on:** February 17, 2004, 05:04:23 PM »

rofl
moe is stomachable, as far as jam bands go for me. I'm pretty sure Scott Brown developed software for MACs called X-ACT or something like that to handle flac, shn, ape etc. Check the coputer recording forum

timP · « **Reply #22 on:** February 17, 2004, 05:39:34 PM »

I have a set of the 831s and love them...
have made some really nice sounding tapes with them... not enough high end for actually, but I use them for stealth and whenever I don't want to lug my other stuff around. Those, the battery pack w/levels &bass rolloff and my archos fit in a small bag, and I have fun using them beacuse they are easy to set up

George · « **Reply #23 on:** February 18, 2004, 08:55:02 PM »

Quote from: nickgregory on February 17, 2004, 12:51:20 PM

It all depends on what you are taping. The SP 853 models worked well for me with outside shows, where the loud bass was not overpowering. However, for shows where I was either (1) inside an arena for a loud, bassy show, or (2)outside close to a bass cabinet (which was head level), I would get distortion....I think the 9V powering method that SP uses does not allow the 853 mics to take advantage of the full range available to them, and thus the SPL overloading I experienced.

But that being said, keep in mind what you are recording....they perform pretty well for the shows that were not bassy, so to speak.

Hmmm, i taped a boc show and was not more 20 feet away and it came out just fine. I had my bass rolloff to 160Hz, iirc and there's very little distortion (due to the meter jumping into the red). I used hyper's this time around and actually really enjoy the recording. I think i'll get more experience out of my at853's when i hit the Opeth show

nickgregory · « **Reply #24 on:** February 18, 2004, 08:58:51 PM »

Quote from: gloco on February 18, 2004, 08:55:02 PM

Hmmm, i taped a boc show and was not more 20 feet away and it came out just fine. I had my bass rolloff to 160Hz, iirc and there's very little distortion (due to the meter jumping into the red). I used hyper's this time around and actually really enjoy the recording. I think i'll get more experience out of my at853's when i hit the Opeth show

the key is where the bass cabinet is. For the Chili Peppers I was ~10 ft from it outdoors, and for Kid Rock, I was ~40 ft from it indoors. The rolloff was set for both of them at 195 Hz as well....yet they distorted. Had I been able to move more center for either of those shows I think I would have been fine....but with ticketed seating, what are you going to do....

gruven42 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 19, 2004, 11:22:43 AM »

Well, bottom line: If any of the AT compact mics overload while being 48V Phantom powered, then it is false advertising. The mic's MISL is rated at 138dB, exactly the same as km184s.

nickgregory · « **Reply #26 on:** February 19, 2004, 11:27:30 AM »

Quote from: gruven42 on February 19, 2004, 11:22:43 AM

Well, bottom line: If any of the AT compact mics overload while being 48V Phantom powered, then it is false advertising. The mic's MISL is rated at 138dB, exactly the same as km184s.

agreed. I have not heard of any cases yet where the AT mics have overloaded....just the SP ones that employ a different powering scheme

gruven42 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 19, 2004, 11:34:45 AM »

Should be the same deal with the SPs.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=120&item=SP-CMC-4&type=store

Specifications:

Signal To Noise Ratio: 67 dB, 1 kHz at 1 Pa
Dynamic Range: 83dB without battery module, 98dB with battery module, 111dB with Phantom power kit
Frequency Response: Omni-Directional 20-20,000 Hz all others 30 - 20,000 Hz
Open Circuit Sensitivity: -43 dB (5.6 mV) re 1V at 1 Pa
Maximum Input Sound Level: 110 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D. (125dB when powered by our battery module, 138dB with Phantom power kit)

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2004, 11:40:04 AM »

SHOULD, you can be the first to test it!

nickgregory · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2004, 11:48:58 AM »

I can only speak for their mics powered with the 9V powering box, which did have SPL issues at bassy shows.

gruven42 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 19, 2004, 11:55:18 AM »

No prob!

Brother, can you spare $299?

Massive Dynamic · « **Reply #31 on:** February 19, 2004, 06:11:14 PM »

I thought I'd add to this thread with a good lead on a vendor. I purchased a set of AT853rx from this company in Florida. I have no affiliation with them, and outside of my one purchase, know nothing about them.

Their price on the standard AT853rx with card cap is $168. But, they also sell a special configuration where they trade out the standard card capsule for a hypercard cap. They sell this for only $148 (with all the accessories). I got a pair of these and have had no complaints. At this price, it's something to check out.

http://www.allprosound.com
http://www.allprosound.com/catalog/index.asp
http://www.allprosound.com/catalog/productdetails.asp?fprodid=134

Ragan

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #32 on:** February 20, 2004, 04:48:20 PM »

that's for one mic, and it doesn't say they are Rx or what the termination is

gruven42 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 20, 2004, 04:58:38 PM »

Yeah, the spec pdf that it links to lists it as a AT853a or 853Wa, no mention of Rx. Also, on the purchase page, it shows the MISL at 130dB, and on the pdf, 135. A little shady for me.

Massive Dynamic · « **Reply #34 on:** February 20, 2004, 07:12:44 PM »

Hmm, I guess it's true that no good deed goes unpunished. I guess I didn't make it clear, but buying a pair of AT853rx with hyper caps *was* my only purchase from them.
You think $148 is too much for a single mic? Try checking B&H http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home;jsessionid=A2YLMwy3p1!-1013330338?ci=1&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=SearchBar&A=search&Q=*&shs=AT853rx or sonicsense; they are both considerably higher. Remember, we are talking genuine AT here, not SP. And, yes, this is the genuine AT853rx with AT8533x power module with XLRM termination (and includes all of the other standard accessories listed on the AT pdf). They work great with my p-mod UA-5.
All I'm saying is that if you want a genuine AT853rx with a hyper cap, this place has the best price I've found. If you want the standard cardioid cap, their prices are just average. You pays your money, you makes your choice.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #35 on:** February 20, 2004, 07:36:41 PM »

I'm curious ragan, what's the number on the xlr terminations, the model number. The price is very rocking, indeed

leegeddy · « **Reply #36 on:** February 20, 2004, 07:38:14 PM »

Quote from: Ragan on February 20, 2004, 07:12:44 PM

Hmm, I guess it's true that no good deed goes unpunished. I guess I didn't make it clear, but buying a pair of AT853rx with hyper caps *was* my only purchase from them.
You think $148 is too much for a single mic? Try checking B&H http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home;jsessionid=A2YLMwy3p1!-1013330338?ci=1&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=SearchBar&A=search&Q=*&shs=AT853rx or sonicsense; they are both considerably higher. Remember, we are talking genuine AT here, not SP. And, yes, this is the genuine AT853rx with AT8533x power module with XLRM termination (and includes all of the other standard accessories listed on the AT pdf). They work great with my p-mod UA-5.
All I'm saying is that if you want a genuine AT853rx with a hyper cap, this place has the best price I've found. If you want the standard cardioid cap, their prices are just average. You pays your money, you makes your choice.

$148 for AT853Rx is a damn good price. i paid an average of $160/mic of my AT853a set.

marc

mizary · « **Reply #37 on:** February 23, 2004, 05:11:20 PM »

a used pair of SP 853's with batt box (with bass rolloff) usually go for around $150 (give or take $25)

That is what I have... I paid $150... but since then I have seen them for around the same price.

http://www.sharingthegroove.org/msgboard/showthread.php?s=&postid=550226

here is a recent example (Cyndi Lauper 2-15-2004) of the SP853's performance under less than ideal circumstances...

at853(sp) -> batt box(sp) -> JB3@48khz
mics taped (I used clear packing tape!) to sides of hat. (no real stereo config - may have been close to A-B)
I had good position... 5th row center and in a good sounding venue. But Cyndi wouldn't keep still so I was constantly turning my head. (I'd rather enjoy the show than be a mic stand) Also levels are a little low... as I quit checking them after a while. (once again - I'd rather enjoy the show)

One other note:

I ran a very informal comp of the
#1 853's > batt box > jb3
and
#2 SP853's > batt box > UA5 > jb3
and
#3 MC-012 > UA5 > jb3

I could barely tell the diff between #1 and #2 (yeah #2 was a little better) But the real shocker was the #3 it was WAY better than #2. Night and Day. Makes me realize how nice the mc-012's are for the $$$... and how crappy the 853's are compared to non-stealth mics.

also just do a seach for 853 on archive.org/audio/ I got 37 results.

--mizary

plucks · « **Reply #38 on:** February 23, 2004, 05:53:27 PM »

Audix M1245s?
They don't have the low end that the ATs have, but still a great option!
http://www.audixusa.com/Acrobat/micros_spec_sheet_2.pdf

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #39 on:** February 23, 2004, 07:18:16 PM »

Quote from: mizary on February 23, 2004, 05:11:20 PM

a used pair of SP 853's with batt box (with bass rolloff) usually go for around $150 (give or take $25)

That is what I have... I paid $150... but since then I have seen them for around the same price.

http://www.sharingthegroove.org/msgboard/showthread.php?s=&postid=550226

here is a recent example (Cyndi Lauper 2-15-2004) of the SP853's performance under less than ideal circumstances...

at853(sp) -> batt box(sp) -> JB3@48khz
mics taped (I used clear packing tape!) to sides of hat. (no real stereo config - may have been close to A-B)
I had good position... 5th row center and in a good sounding venue. But Cyndi wouldn't keep still so I was constantly turning my head. (I'd rather enjoy the show than be a mic stand) Also levels are a little low... as I quit checking them after a while. (once again - I'd rather enjoy the show)

One other note:

I ran a very informal comp of the
#1 853's > batt box > jb3
and
#2 SP853's > batt box > UA5 > jb3
and
#3 MC-012 > UA5 > jb3

I could barely tell the diff between #1 and #2 (yeah #2 was a little better) But the real shocker was the #3 it was WAY better than #2. Night and Day. Makes me realize how nice the mc-012's are for the $$$... and how crappy the 853's are compared to non-stealth mics.

also just do a seach for 853 on archive.org/audio/ I got 37 results.

--mizary

in #1, are those the stock AT or the modded SP mics? If they AT853a mics, I will send you some of my work while running REAL 48Vphantom powered AT853Rx mics in front of a quality preamp and adc. Then you can compare properly powered stealth mics to your $99 > ua-5 over-fluffed combo

mizary · « **Reply #40 on:** February 23, 2004, 10:20:18 PM »

sorry... yeah #1 was same as #2 regular old SP 853's

and the point was that the oktavas sounded much better than the SP 853's regarless of the pre/AD

I am sure the AT853Rx's with 48V power sound great... (heck they might even sound better than the oktavas) But #1 some people (myself included) don't want to have to carry any extra gear (outside a batt box and recording device) and want a super cheap (less than 1/2 the price of Rx) recording solution.

--mizary

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #41 on:** February 23, 2004, 11:57:38 PM »

no doubt, I really liked borrowing Armen's SP831s, but I like borring Goose's Rx's even more

I sounded ass-ish earlier but I was just mistaken on what you were comparing. the phantom power adapter kit is really only $20 more than the battery box w/ switchable roll-off option.

George · « **Reply #42 on:** February 28, 2004, 02:55:05 PM »

Quote from: nickgregory on February 18, 2004, 08:58:51 PM

Quote from: gloco on February 18, 2004, 08:55:02 PM
Hmmm, i taped a boc show and was not more 20 feet away and it came out just fine. I had my bass rolloff to 160Hz, iirc and there's very little distortion (due to the meter jumping into the red). I used hyper's this time around and actually really enjoy the recording. I think i'll get more experience out of my at853's when i hit the Opeth show

the key is where the bass cabinet is. For the Chili Peppers I was ~10 ft from it outdoors, and for Kid Rock, I was ~40 ft from it indoors. The rolloff was set for both of them at 195 Hz as well....yet they distorted. Had I been able to move more center for either of those shows I think I would have been fine....but with ticketed seating, what are you going to do....

Yeah man, that sucks. I just taped a Moonspell and a Opeth show last night at Irving Plaza. The bass was set at 11, it was fucking insane. There's some crackling in my recording (curently listening to Moonspell) so far when the meters hit 0, i do recall lowering the volume a bit, so hopefully the rest will be fine, i had the bass rolloff set to 195Hz and the bass is a bit bloated. Funny thing is the crackling occurs not when the band is going nuts but when they slow down and the singer is howling away. I definitely understand what you're saying now more than ever after this latest experience with taping in a bass heavy environment.