Topic: adk a51s thoughts...upgrade path help..

[johnnybottom]

hi,
Hoping for some advice...I primarily record my band, Reflections.

Mics are ADK A-51 S Series Six and I have been running directly into a
fostex MR-8Hd 4 track.   Never been thrilled with the aud recordings im making.

Are these decent mics? I got the refurbd ones on special years back, not sure
where they fit in the line of adks, even after reading larrys explains.

Best thoughts on upgrade path ?
    1. Get a preamp for the mics   (which preamp w/ phantom power might work with these mics)
    2. drop the mics and get a set of CA-14s   
    3. get a 24 bit recorder  ie dr2d ( i pull sbd tracks too)
   
 I will get to all of the above in time, but what order should I go. Low budget for this stuff now unfortunatly.
 Any direction would be appreciated,
 Thanks
 Jc

[Nigel Tufnel]

I recently recorded the Wood Brothers with the same ADK mics and was very pleased with the results. Without knowing why you are dissatisfied, I could only guess what you should do next, but I know these mics are capable of VERY good pulls.

[johnnybottom]

I recently recorded the Wood Brothers with the same ADK mics and was very pleased with the results. Without knowing why you are dissatisfied, I could only guess what you should do next, but I know these mics are capable of VERY good pulls.

cool. How are you powering the mics ...Is there a preamp involved too ? 
Mine is probably inadequate in my old recorder Im guessing.

thanks!

[F.O.Bean]

TinyBox and dr2d. Run mics>TinyBox>dr2d and SBD>dr2d

[johnnybottom]

TinyBox and dr2d. Run mics>TinyBox>dr2d and SBD>dr2d

Thank you.  I had a feeling. 

[F.O.Bean]

TinyBox and dr2d. Run mics>TinyBox>dr2d and SBD>dr2d

Thank you.  I had a feeling. 

No problem

[flipp]

I've run both ADK A51s and ST10s directly into both a Fostex FR2 and a FR2LE with no external preamp and been very satisfied with all 4 combinations.

In my book moving to CA14s would be a lateral move, not an upgrade.

Full disclosure, I also have a set of CA14 cards but have never run them into either Fostex deck.

[SmokinJoe]

I'm a big believer that certain mic/preamp combos go together like peanut butter an jelly... the flavors go well together.  Other combos, no so much.  In this context I use the term "preamp" to include both external pres and the circuitry included in your recorder.  Anyway, those mics may not be magical with your Fostex, but buying a different random deck/preamp may or may not give you what you want.  Going from 16 to 24 bit by itself won't automatically be a huge improvement... all the magic happens before the A/D converters.  Listen to a LOT of tapes on the archive with A51's and decide which ones you like and then look at the gear chain.  If, for instance, you like the sound of those mics with a UA-5, you can pick up a UA-5 pretty cheap now-a-days.

The A51's are good mics, but if you are in a muddy sounding room, that isn't their best situation.  How are you running them, meaning XY, etc?

[johnnybottom]

Thanks for the info!

90% of the time Im recording at Mexicali Live in NJ. Basically I set up right in front of
sound board which is in front of left stack.  Mics are set PAS about 8 ft high,about 40 ft from stack
Since it runs unattended I generally have to be conservative with the levels,
ergo my thought about 24 bit.  It could be a muddy room.
Maybe Ill give these a whirl with my cd player cranking and see how it copys.

Wondering if your fostex has better preamps..not sure if these numbers mean a difference..?

My Fostex MR8 HD
Input level : -48dBu (MIC) to +4dBu (LINE)
Input impedance : 1.5kW or more
----
FR 2LE
Input Impedance more than 6k ohm
Reference Input Level -50dBu to -10dBu
Maximum Input Level +2dBu

[SmokinJoe]

When you run SBD + AUD, are you copying the files to a computer, and then taking out the approximately .040 second delay between the SBD and AUD tracks?  If not, that's your problem.  If so, how do you go about deciding how much offset is required?

Another thing, and I know this sounds silly but I've seen it happen... you realize that A51's are a side address mic, and the ADK logo is pointing towards the stacks, and the ends of the mics are pointing towards the ceiling, right?  I once saw a newbie who didn't know that and used LD's like it was a pencil mic.

I've found my ADK LD's (A51's, A6's, TL's) are at their best when they are close to the music, less so from the middle of the large room. The preamps in your MR8 are probably decent, but not exactly awesome.  Trying to guess which is "the weak link" and which upgrade would give you the bigger bang for the buck is a tough call.

Before you spend any money, is there another taper nearby with a bunch of good gear you can use for a test?  If you lived near me, I would try putting my V3 between the mics and the MR8.  If you put a decent pre in the line and it doesn't make any significant difference, that answers the question about different preamps.

Mics are like knives in the sense that they are "tools" and different tools are better in different situations.  I wouldn't peel potatoes with a machete, and I wouldn't butcher a cow with a pen knife.  My gut feeling is that A51's are good mics, they just might not be the right tool for that job.  My suggestion is to try some AT853's, the standard RX ones with phantom adapters. Most people will say that AT853's and CA14's are pretty similar, but the AT853's will plug into your MR8 directly, no battery box or small preamp required.  You can get them used in the yard sale pretty cheap, try them, and if you don't like them, sell them again for little or no loss.  If you can't find a pair, let me know... I have 2 pair, and while I'm not really trying to sell them, I could sell a pair.

The ability to run 2 AUD + 2 SBD is a huge advantage.  That's a much bigger advantage then switching to 24 bit on a 2 track.  A "good" 4 track recorder is going to set you back $500-$1000, which probably isn't in your budget.  There have been thousands of awesome tapes made with DAT or JB3 at 16 bit.

[johnnybottom]

Thanks SMokinJ!
 I use Studio One and have a good grip on zooming in and sync the tracks. Actually thats how I came up with 40 ft.
 I think the proximty is an issue. As when i test at home with stereo. Sounds great.
 Im scratching my head looking at that 853 set in yard sale now.
 Do the RX ones need that 4.7k mod?
 Comparing my tracks to archive not too bad, just a ltitle weaker in dynamic range.
  sample mix...  http://archive.org/details/Ref2012-12-29.flac16   
  the sbd helps a ton.
  After listening to other archive samples  Im also realizing Im not going get the high end (NAK) crispness  I have in my head from gd recordings.

 thanks again,
jc

[SmokinJoe]

Do the RX ones need that 4.7k mod?

Not the way you would be using them.  853's normally have 3 wires running from the phantom adapter to the mic head.  People started chopping off the phantom adapters and plugging them into small recorders with 1/8" miniplugs for low profile work.  The problem is if it's loud music the mics will brickwall in this "2 wire" configuration, so Chris Church figured out away to add a 4.7k resister in the mix so they don't brickwall.  None of that matters to you because you are using them in the original intended manner.

[Brian Skalinder]

Without knowing why you're  dissatisfied,  any upgrade recommendations are pure guesswork.  What are you hearing in your current setup that you don't like or would like to improve?

[kirk97132]

the A51S mics are solid mics.  But as Joe said, the preamp canmake a difference. Those mics (i have a set too) have tons of low end and are not the type of mic that will help things in a bad sounding room.  Then as Brian says, we don't really know what you are having problems with either.  I would suggest getting a good preamp to run with htem.  I had found that I liked a modded UA-5 with them, a V3/V2 and I've run a USBPre-2.  I didn't like the Sound Devices MP-2 with them as much.  You may find that taking some of the low end out with an eq, or roll off at home after the show might help.  I can only guess as to what your issue is but whatever it is, they are solid mics, I am not a huge fan of them far back like OTS type application and unles you are very very close and/or loud stay with PAS or DIN.  No XY or ORTF when back with those. 

[johnnybottom]

Thanks for the feedback! 
 
  Problems, maybe my expectations....not low enough lows, or high enough highs.
 
  Im concluding a couple of things.....
 
-  My expectations of the mics, after listening to archive comps. has been refined 'a bit'.
-  The room doesnt sound as good as I expect.
-  I just dont get that strong bass Id expect, leading me to think a preamp might be in order, at least to try.
       Trim on the fostex is up pretty high (3/4) and thats fairly conservative since Im recording unattended .
 - Im 40 ft back PAS in front of left stack, 4 ft from left wall,  not great at all either.

  Psyched the mics are good!
  thanks ,
  jc