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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: slowblow on November 14, 2017, 01:28:37 PM

Title: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: slowblow on November 14, 2017, 01:28:37 PM
Hi All,
I need you !
my gear is SP-CMC-8 > SP-SPSB-6 > Olympus LS-P2
my problem is the Olympus has only a mic input, not line input.
this is the first time I will use this equipment.
Should I use the bass roll-off settings in my battery box ?
what advice can you give me to have a good recording?
thanks a lot !
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: beatkilla on November 14, 2017, 02:03:26 PM
No bass roll off.
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: bombdiggity on November 14, 2017, 02:05:38 PM
I would not use the bass roll off.  Tiny mics don't need that and you can do it yourself in editing with more precision if something like that is needed. 

You should be able to use the mic input.  I don't think that thing provides too high an output.  Set your levels manually and make sure you're not running too loud. 

Make sure the mics stay steadily oriented in the same consistent direction. 

Have fun. 
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: Gutbucket on November 14, 2017, 02:51:35 PM
Try to make the recording from wherever it sound sounds best to you.
Point at the auditory center of sound, not the apparent visual center.
Set your levels so that you have a comfortable range below clipping.
Practice prior to an important recording.
All the little stuff: Clean your wire connections, make sure your batteries are charged, reformat your memory card when it becomes full rather than deleting files from it, etc..

Quote
I would not use the bass roll off.  Tiny mics don't need that..
Not using the bass-rolloff on the battery box and/or recorder is good advice.  Set your levels low enough to accommodate the bass and modify the file appropriately afterwards if you find it would benefit from bass reduction. However, the size of a microphone has no relation to its bass sensitivity.
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: bombdiggity on November 14, 2017, 10:21:26 PM

Quote
I would not use the bass roll off.  Tiny mics don't need that..
Not using the bass-rolloff on the battery box and/or recorder is good advice.  Set your levels low enough to accommodate the bass and modify the file appropriately afterwards if you find it would benefit from bass reduction. However, the size of a microphone has no relation to its bass sensitivity.

True that's not the proximate cause but none of the little cardioid mics people use for stealth purposes are ever likely to have too full a low end.  Even similar profile omnis that seems unlikely. 

We do all agree whatever it is should be adjusted in post. 
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: opsopcopolis on November 15, 2017, 08:11:08 AM

Quote
I would not use the bass roll off.  Tiny mics don't need that..
Not using the bass-rolloff on the battery box and/or recorder is good advice.  Set your levels low enough to accommodate the bass and modify the file appropriately afterwards if you find it would benefit from bass reduction. However, the size of a microphone has no relation to its bass sensitivity.

True that's not the proximate cause but none of the little cardioid mics people use for stealth purposes are ever likely to have too full a low end.  Even similar profile omnis that seems unlikely. 

We do all agree whatever it is should be adjusted in post.

The CA omnis I use have some serious bass response. Especially in comparison to their card brethren
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: aaronji on November 15, 2017, 08:37:14 AM
^^ Many small omnis have good bass response (look at the frequency plots for the DPA 4060, Sennheiser MKE-2 or Countryman B3, for example).  Cards, on the other hand, tend to have comparatively poor low-end, even the high-quality SDCs, unless used very close to the source (due to proximity effect)...
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: Gutbucket on November 15, 2017, 08:50:54 AM
Many small cardioids are intended for speech and intentionally have less bass sensitivity, but that's not always the case.  I recall AT853 for instance having pretty significant bass response, more so than AT933 or other miniature cardioids from AT.  Almost all miniature omnis are flat to very low frequencies with exactly the same response as larger omnis.  If there is a response difference trend with small omnis it is that they tend have more treble boost for use as lavaliere mics, the bottom end extension doesn't differ much.

A better metric to use than microphone size is the manufacturer's intended use and target market for the microphone.  For the most part we're re-purposing equipment intended for other applications, and in figuring out what can be adapted to work well for our purposes it becomes helpful to learn how to correctly differentiate why one small mic may not be like another.

Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: slowblow on November 15, 2017, 03:40:36 PM
Many thanks for the help.
no problem of sound ? (distorsion ?) if I record with the mic input instead of a line input ?
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: Gutbucket on November 15, 2017, 05:36:34 PM
Not sure about the max input level of the Olympus LS-P2, as it's not a very common recorder around here at TS.

Yes it is possible to overload the mic input.  If you find you are getting distortion, engaging the bass-cut on the battery box may reduce output level to the recorder enough to prevent the distortion, and would be appropriate if you cannot lower the input level of the recorder sufficiently to prevent distortion.  In that case you can somewhat restore the lost bass afterwards with equalization if the cut is too much, but often not entirely (the basis upon which the general "don't use bass-cut" recommendations are made).  However, doing so is far preferable to a distorted recording.

A complication is that with small recorders there is often a lower limit somewhere within the full range of input level adjustability, below which the input will still distort even though the meters no longer reach full-scale and indicate 'over' or clipping.  That's a symptom of the analog input stage of the recorder clipping prior to analog to digital conversion, which is where the metering happens.  Finding that "do no go below" input setting is something folks figure out around here whenever a new small recorder comes into mainstream use.  Often the term used around here for that is "brickwalling" since the action of the meters tends to not bounce as much as one would normally see, instead sort of 'ceiling out' as if hitting a brickwall at some arbitrary level.

You'l need to try it with various settings to see what works.  Expect a few failed test recordings before you really nail it.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: adrianf74 on November 16, 2017, 12:30:11 PM
^^ Many small omnis have good bass response (look at the frequency plots for the DPA 4060, Sennheiser MKE-2 or Countryman B3, for example).  Cards, on the other hand, tend to have comparatively poor low-end, even the high-quality SDCs, unless used very close to the source (due to proximity effect)...

Speaking of which... I'll never forget being at a small club show (about 1000 people) where it was bass and drums, mainly, and the recording was NOTHING BUT BASS using DPA 4061's.  Thankfully, I could roll that off in post and it sounded great.  If I'd rolled it off on a battery box, it could've been a complete mess.
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: live2cd on November 17, 2017, 03:45:24 PM
are there any advantages of using the bass roll off then? just curious. I rarely use mine with the HEB's, but its there if I need it.
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: DATBoy on December 19, 2017, 01:16:40 AM
I just purchased this for my Olympus LS-P2. https://www.kvconnection.com/product-p/km-ad-trsm-a32.htm

I'm wondering if using this cable will turn stuff intended for line inputs for the mic input, like battery boxes. I say this because every time I put my battery box in the LS-P2 mic input, it suddenly sees it as a plug in power device and there seems to be no way to turn that off. As a result, I don't think the recordings I have made with it are that great as the Sony because of it's dedicated Line Input. Then again, I've used the Pocketrak that has a line input with mixed results with a battery box to power up the mics. However, I think the Pocketrak works pretty well with recording line level stuff through the soundboard. Maybe it has something to do with the amount of power the unit is providing? Once I find something out about this cable, I'll let you know what the results are.
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: Gutbucket on December 19, 2017, 08:45:22 AM
I just purchased this for my Olympus LS-P2. https://www.kvconnection.com/product-p/km-ad-trsm-a32.htm

That should lower the input, reducing sensitivity of the mic-input to something more like a line-input.

[/quote] I'm wondering if using this cable will turn stuff intended for line inputs for the mic input, like battery boxes. I say this because every time I put my battery box in the LS-P2 mic input, it suddenly sees it as a plug in power device and there seems to be no way to turn that off. [/quote]

There should be a switch in a menu somewhere to turn PIP on/off.  Regardless it should not effect the recording if PIP is left on and you plug in a battery box.
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: ilduclo on December 19, 2017, 09:27:34 AM
My basic advice on new gear is to try it out at a show that you don't care if you get it perfect, try different settings and speak into your mics just what settings they are each time. Give it a nice listen at home on a decent set up and make your choices! Then when you do record a show you like and get good results, post over in kickdown
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: DATBoy on December 19, 2017, 10:18:22 PM
I just purchased this for my Olympus LS-P2. https://www.kvconnection.com/product-p/km-ad-trsm-a32.htm

That should lower the input, reducing sensitivity of the mic-input to something more like a line-input.

I'm wondering if using this cable will turn stuff intended for line inputs for the mic input, like battery boxes. I say this because every time I put my battery box in the LS-P2 mic input, it suddenly sees it as a plug in power device and there seems to be no way to turn that off. [/quote]

There should be a switch in a menu somewhere to turn PIP on/off.  Regardless it should not effect the recording if PIP is left on and you plug in a battery box.
[/quote]

I have checked everywhere inside the menu of this recorder and no, there is no option that allows you to turn off plug in power.
Title: Re: need some advice to adjust my equipment
Post by: Gutbucket on December 20, 2017, 08:45:46 AM
The battery box has capacitors in the signal path past the battery which block the DC provided by the battery box to power the mics.  Those same capacitors also block the PIP DC provided by the recorder from reaching the battery or microphones.  Shouldn't really matter if you can't find a way to turn it off.

What may matter is the impedance of the attenuation cable and how that interacts with the output impedance of the microphones through the batterybox.  Depends on the particulars of both the cable and the microphones, but in some cases could create a filter which produces an unflat response.  Listen for a change in high frequency response when using the cable. That's less likely to be an issue if using that attenuation cable with a preamp or soundboard input.  Someone more electrically astute will have to explain this in detail, as it is reaching the limits of my electronics explanation comfort zone.