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Author Topic: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?  (Read 32020 times)

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Offline rokpunk

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2007, 10:22:06 PM »
Not to say that it's unheard of, but I wonder why this Grammy award winning teachers chose to mic the piano with a pair of dynamics instead of condensers.
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Offline MusicTech

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2007, 11:56:34 PM »
Not to say that it's unheard of, but I wonder why this Grammy award winning teachers chose to mic the piano with a pair of dynamics instead of condensers.

I believe the demonstration was to reflect mic placement more than mic selection.  Given this is a "first class" in the program, I have noticed that the instructor is cautious about having the Neumanns and the AKG condensors handled by beginners.

Offline MusicTech

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2007, 12:07:50 AM »
I couldn't read the handwritten pic, as its too large, so I shrank it up (had to keep moving all over to try to read it)..

It seems, to me, that the picture of the mic'ing of the piano is in direct contradiction to the comments in the handwritten jpg?


Thanks for reducing the picture, I also changed the original post.

What I gathered from the photo and the handout was that being right on top of the strings, but away from the hammers, with directional mics, and quite far away from the lid of the piano was worthy of trying, particulary for solo piano where there are not other instruments for the lid to gather reflections.  I have been listening to Herbie Hancock's solo album this afternoon, using the "cardiods above the strings" with a third mic below the soundboard, and it sounds quite nice.

But then, I am just a beginner....

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2007, 02:35:44 AM »
awesome description and pics, +T. Thanks alot musictech!
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Offline Brian

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2007, 11:00:11 AM »
Not to say that it's unheard of, but I wonder why this Grammy award winning teachers chose to mic the piano with a pair of dynamics instead of condensers.

have you ever done a recording session or reinforced a stage with all 57's and 58's?  it's weird, but not necessarily bad.

when i was in school we gathered all the 57's together for a recording session of a "garage trash" band. somebody came up with the idea cause they thought the sound of the 57 on everything would compliment the music. There were 17 total tracks....all 57's(even the room microphones).  it was crazy, but we came away with listenable recordings and the band loved it. 57 > vintage neve pre sounds pretty good ;D

/hijack

musictech - thanks for posting your thoughts.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 10:19:07 AM by Brian »

datgirl333

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2007, 09:10:33 AM »
best way to mic a piano, bar none - http://www.earthworksaudio.com/77.html
+T and thanks for the recommendation, rokpunk!  The technical director at a local performing arts center where I occasionally do stage crew work was looking for a way to mic a 9 foot grand piano.  Sent him your link and he's going to buy one--look forward to hearing it in action.  Thanks again!

Offline guysonic

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2007, 10:38:51 AM »
best way to mic a piano, bar none - http://www.earthworksaudio.com/77.html
+T and thanks for the recommendation, rokpunk!  The technical director at a local performing arts center where I occasionally do stage crew work was looking for a way to mic a 9 foot grand piano.  Sent him your link and he's going to buy one--look forward to hearing it in action.  Thanks again!

I'm a big fan of Eric Blackmore's Earthworks omni mics as he starts with the same capsule as I also modify for use with DSM HRTF stereo-surround array recording.  With such modifications, Earthworks omni products are very neutral and will faithfully record sound in any particular positioning.

The best thing that sells this 'piano mic' is being an easy to use product that takes the guesswork out of piano mic placement for getting a consistent piano sound, but this is not the sound of the piano as is heard by anyone near this instrument.

As a result, it's another piano effects recording said to get a good recorded 'piano sound' from this instrument.

Interestingly, there is NO recorded samples posted on the his site available for anyone to hear this mic's recording quality.  Anyone wonder why only words are used to sell audio recording products like this with no sample recordings to actually hear? 

I think from experience with hearing such mic positioning inside pianos that the concept and the pages of piano mic discussion actually sound far better than most recordings made in this manner?

I have a saying: "If you talk too much about audio without actually listening to recordings made by different types of gear, you'll eventually go deaf!"

That's why I always post piano recordings for people to hear the results of an HRTF mic array at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

Maybe a few of you haven't gone completely deaf to where only reading about audio is only option for thinking something is certain to sound good?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 11:44:56 AM by guysonic »
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline rokpunk

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2007, 11:51:04 AM »
Interestingly, there is NO recorded samples posted on the his site available for anyone to hear this mic's recording quality.  Anyone wonder why only words are used to sell audio recording products like this with no sample recordings to actually hear? 

I think from experience with hearing such mic positioning inside pianos that the concept and the pages of piano mic discussion actually sound far better the most recordings made in this manner?


At AES in NYC Earthworks had a full headphone monitoring setup, complete with A/B comps between their Piano Mic System and other more familiar mics (Schoeps, B&K, Neumann, AKG's, etc....sorry, no Sonic Studio mics were used in this test). They played back a CD and the results were astonishing. The Earthworks system was, to my ears, soniclly superior to all the other mic setups. Obviously I didn't see how this CD was recorded, but I trust that Earthworks did a fair, legit compairison.  I honestly don't give a rats ass about mic'ing concepts and theories....I only care about the results and what my ears hear. The Earthworks setup is amazing....and if I mic'ed more grand pianos and had a spare $5K, I'd buy a set in a heartbeat.

As for Moke's comment on the DPA magnet setup, I have seen and used this setup before and had nice results. However, I used cardioid capsules the one time I used these DPA's, not omni's. I think with omni's, I might have liked it even more.  For omni's, the Earthworks system had AMAZING rejection. The recorded samples I heard were from a session with a live group...not just a solo piano. I swear I heard no bleed at all from the drums or any other instrument in the room. I was honestly blown away at how nice this system sounded....and how easy the setup and useage is.

Guysonic...I think if you email Earthworks and ask them for a copy of the Piano Mic compairison CD, they will send it to you. I'm not 100% on that, but the folks I spoke with at AES were super helpful....I bet they would hook you up if you asked.
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again, your showing your cluelessness.


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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2007, 11:45:27 PM »
The spacing isnt as wide, but Id imagine that Subcards/NOS would also work well according to the pics you guys have posted. Pointed down on the strings like that earthwork's mic system with Subcards/NOS would seem like it would also do the trick!

I wish I got some chances to mic a piano like that just for reference and experience, but alas, I dont know anyone who really plays the piano unfortunately :(
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
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DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2007, 03:52:01 AM »
Interestingly, there is NO recorded samples posted on the his site available for anyone to hear this mic's recording quality.  Anyone wonder why only words are used to sell audio recording products like this with no sample recordings to actually hear? 

I think from experience with hearing such mic positioning inside pianos that the concept and the pages of piano mic discussion actually sound far better the most recordings made in this manner?


At AES in NYC Earthworks had a full headphone monitoring setup, complete with A/B comps between their Piano Mic System and other more familiar mics (Schoeps, B&K, Neumann, AKG's, etc....sorry, no Sonic Studio mics were used in this test). They played back a CD and the results were astonishing. The Earthworks system was, to my ears, soniclly superior to all the other mic setups. Obviously I didn't see how this CD was recorded, but I trust that Earthworks did a fair, legit compairison.  I honestly don't give a rats ass about mic'ing concepts and theories....I only care about the results and what my ears hear. The Earthworks setup is amazing....and if I mic'ed more grand pianos and had a spare $5K, I'd buy a set in a heartbeat.


I listened to the AES setup too, but came away with very different impressions.  I have to agree with Guysonic here, the sound was to my ears totally artificial and "wrong," at least for a classical piano sound.  Now you may like that particular sound, but it's certainly not what I aim for.

Jeff

Offline rokpunk

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2007, 07:10:04 PM »
I listened to the AES setup too, but came away with very different impressions.  I have to agree with Guysonic here, the sound was to my ears totally artificial and "wrong," at least for a classical piano sound.  Now you may like that particular sound, but it's certainly not what I aim for.


guysonic has never heard them. interesting to hear your opinion of the mics, though.
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again, your showing your cluelessness.


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And rules all creation........

Offline dgodwin

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Re: Microphone techniques for baby grand piano?
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2008, 06:30:02 PM »
bump...

I've got to record a piano in our auditorium next week for a student who will be applying to music school, competetions... etc.   The aud will be empty... the piano will be in the pit.   I'll be using my R4.  I've got 2 at4050's at my disposal, along with a pair of beyerdynamic mc930's..  I'm currently considering a lot of the techniques posted here (Thanks guys.. +T)  Does anyone have any new recommendations for my specific setup?  Thanks in advance!

 

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