Topic: Grace Lunatec V3 and "brownout" voltage

[DSatz]

Hi. Last week I was the recording person at a five-day, 10-hours-a-day series of vocal master classes for (mainly) opera singers in upper Manhattan. I've done that every summer for the past 11 years now, but this year it was held in a new venue and I discovered a new problem.

Since it's the height of the air-conditioning season, the electric company tries to prevent total loss of service ("blackout") by deliberately reducing the AC line voltage ("brownout"). I didn't have an AC voltmeter with me, but would guess that the available AC was below 110 Volts at least some of the time, instead of the normal 117-120 V here.

I was using a Lunatec V3 (set up for 6V operation) and the usual "Sceptre" 120 V wall wart. The low voltage LED on the V3 would sometimes flicker on and off weakly, but at other times it was flashing continually and a few times, the unit locked up completely--the LEDs went wonky and its S/P-DIF output was interrupted, which made my recorder stop.

After the first day I switched to a combination of AC (when the voltage seemed high enough to be reliable) and rechargeable batteries, and made it through the rest of the week with only one further, brief spate of interrupted recording.

Anyway, the point of all this is to let people know that I contacted Grace to tell them about the problem--I hoped to convince them to offer an AC supply that's more tolerant of brownout voltages. To my surprise, after a few email messages back and forth, they told me that they already had such a supply available; it's just not listed in their Web store's offerings. It has the model number "T143" and is supposed to handle 100 - 140 (!) VAC input just fine.

The price is about 50% higher than for the normal "T080" supply, so I understand why it's not the default offering--but I sure don't understand why its existence isn't mentioned anywhere. So now it's been mentioned somewhere.

--best regards

[stevetoney]

Good stuff!  Thanks for the heads-up.

Sorta on point, I work in electric power so brownouts is a subject of keen interest to me.  We do indeed take for granted that the power is gonna be there when you flip the switch.  People need to think about that ALOT, because keeping up with electricity demand is going to be a challenge for our society in the next 10 to 20 years.

So, I can't predict if that time will be sooner than later.  I suppose as Mr. Satz has experienced last week, the time could be sooner.  But rolling brownouts are going to be a part of future life because our voting public and politicians refuse to acknowledge this problem that is just around the corner.

The logic kinda goes like this...

A) Nobody wants a new nuclear plant...in fact, shut them all down.
B) Nobody wants a new coal plant...they mess up our air.
C) Everybody says we should use renewables...
D) NOBODY acknowledges that renewables cannot come even close to supplying energy demand.
E) EVERYBODY blames power companys when they can't get their power.

It's easy to blame the electric companys when brown-outs occur.  But our industry has been saying for many years now that brownouts are on the horizon, yet we can't get the plants built, in large part, because of environmental lawmaking and special interest group lawsuits.  In fact, on point with the above post, the people of NYC are trying their hardest to shut down their biggest supplier of power...the Indian Point Nuke station, which is about 30 miles from downtown.  Wanna bet that many thousands are also complaining loudly (probably some with No Nukes stickers on their cars) to their electric companys about the brownouts!

I'm not suggesting that environmental laws shouldn't exist, but I _AM_ suggesting that we need to strike balances between societal needs and ideals.  Big business is not all bad.  So, IMHO, brownouts are a result of the lack of balance and I think it might get worse (with more electric cars, more conversions away from using gas) before the consuming public really understands the magnitude of the issue.

Anyway, I didn't really intend for this response to be a political lightning rod for greens against nukes.

So, to get back on the subject at hand, I'd like to suggest is that equipping yourself for brownouts is something that people are really gonna need to start considering more and more in the future.

[L Ron Hoover]

I'd rather have no power than low power. Brown outs wreak havoc on electronics. I lost a twenty plus year old receiver to one last summer. It wasn't too big of a deal, but more of a sentimental thing.

[JackoRoses]

good reason to have a power conditioner/UPS on all electronics you care about at home.
One the road field recording not so easy at all though.
How many of us carry a power conditioner with them for their gear? Besides you soundguys out there that is...
Thank you very much for this heads up it's good knowledge to know!

[trajhip2000]

Thanks for the info. The T143 looks a bit more substantial than the std wall wart supply - here it is at B&H:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/440278-REG/Grace_Design_T143_T143_Power_Supply.html

Steve

[Matt Quinn]

Good stuff!  Thanks for the heads-up.

Sorta on point, I work in electric power so brownouts is a subject of keen interest to me.  We do indeed take for granted that the power is gonna be there when you flip the switch.  People need to think about that ALOT, because keeping up with electricity demand is going to be a challenge for our society in the next 10 to 20 years.

So, I can't predict if that time will be sooner than later.  I suppose as Mr. Satz has experienced last week, the time could be sooner.  But rolling brownouts are going to be a part of future life because our voting public and politicians refuse to acknowledge this problem that is just around the corner.

The logic kinda goes like this...

A) Nobody wants a new nuclear plant...in fact, shut them all down.
B) Nobody wants a new coal plant...they mess up our air.
C) Everybody says we should use renewables...
D) NOBODY acknowledges that renewables cannot come even close to supplying energy demand.
E) EVERYBODY blames power companys when they can't get their power.

It's easy to blame the electric companys when brown-outs occur.  But our industry has been saying for many years now that brownouts are on the horizon, yet we can't get the plants built, in large part, because of environmental lawmaking and special interest group lawsuits.  In fact, on point with the above post, the people of NYC are trying their hardest to shut down their biggest supplier of power...the Indian Point Nuke station, which is about 30 miles from downtown.  Wanna bet that many thousands are also complaining loudly (probably some with No Nukes stickers on their cars) to their electric companys about the brownouts!

I'm not suggesting that environmental laws shouldn't exist, but I _AM_ suggesting that we need to strike balances between societal needs and ideals.  Big business is not all bad.  So, IMHO, brownouts are a result of the lack of balance and I think it might get worse (with more electric cars, more conversions away from using gas) before the consuming public really understands the magnitude of the issue.

Anyway, I didn't really intend for this response to be a political lightning rod for greens against nukes.

So, to get back on the subject at hand, I'd like to suggest is that equipping yourself for brownouts is something that people are really gonna need to start considering more and more in the future.

+t

[audBall]

Thanks for the info. The T143 looks a bit more substantial than the std wall wart supply - here it is at B&H:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/440278-REG/Grace_Design_T143_T143_Power_Supply.html

Steve

It's described on B+H's site as a "6V AC adapter" but the picture says it outputs "10 - 13.5V". 

I have no intentions of every really using this but am curious....do we need to make sure the jumper settings are set for 6V or 12V operation before using the supply?

[trajhip2000]

My understanding is that the jumper settings only affect low voltage detection and not the voltage the V3 actually uses/prefers? If so, it seems like it wouldn't be as important to have the correct jumper settings as when powering off a battery, altho David has certainly given us an example of an AC-powered situation where having the low voltage indicator respond correctly was important...

[jerryfreak]

The price is about 50% higher than for the normal "T080" supply, so I understand why it's not the default offering--but I sure don't understand why its existence isn't mentioned anywhere. So now it's been mentioned somewhere.

--best regards

probably for the same reasons nobody knows about the mk4vs with flat response.

its a conspiracy, maaaaaannnnnnnnnn!

[DSatz]

[Note added later: Please see my Aug. 12 message below, written after the supply arrived from Grace.]

AudBall, the message from Grace said that this type of supply maintains a well-regulated 7.5 VDC output across the 100 - 140 VAC input range. Before telling me about this unit they were very careful to ask me what voltage my preamp was set for. So I wonder if there's been a photo mixup at B & H Photo, perhaps.

(A well-regulated DC supply, being necessary at the input of a good preamp, the right of the people ...)

It looks as if this supply may not even be a wall wart as such; it may have an input cord. That would be nice, as long as the cord is a commonly obtainable type, since some day I might misplace it.

jerryfreak, I think you mean the MK 4 VJ. I still hope to get a pair of those some day.

--best regards

Edited later to add: There was evidently a typo in the message I was quoting from. The T143 power supply covers an input range from 100-250 VAC, 47-63 Hz, and puts out a regulated 7.5 VDC, according to Neal Thompson of Grace Design.

[stevetoney]

I'm thinking this is a kinda dumb question, but what the hell...I've never claimed to know everything so here goes...

I'm in Europe alot with my job.  As most know, Europe supply voltage is 220V.  So, I've had to be careful in bringing over electronics gadgets to make sure that the wall-wart transformer is OK for the European standard...yes indeedy, I have fried one or two devices since I've been over here because I forgot to check, and the transformer didn't accomodate the higher voltage.

Sooo, for those transformers that DO work here in Europe and in the US, if you look at them they usually say that they work from 100V to 240V or some range that's close.

That's a long preamble to ask the question...so with this 'wide range' power transformer in place, does that mean that I'm protected for these DC devices against brown-outs, assuming the brown-out voltage remains within the specified range?

[DSatz]

tonedeaf, let me put it this way: Yes--that's what you want the label on the gadget or its power supply to say. It's never a guarantee, but it's as good as you can get.

The worst mistake is to buy a "voltage converter for heating appliances"--which may well be labeled with a 1000-Watt capacity--and use it to power something that is not a heating appliance. As I always try to explain to people, this will turn your stereo equipment, etc. INTO a heating appliance.

Unfortunately, places such as Radio Shack often sell the 1000-Watt "heating appliance" converters side by side with 50-Watt transformers at the same price. The transformer is far heavier, while the heating appliance converter has 20 times the capacity; which would you buy if you didn't see (or believe) the warnings? All that the average consumer knows about Volts and Watts is (a) that high voltage can kill you, and that (b) light bulbs with more Watts are brighter--both "facts" that aren't quite even true. (What kills people is current passing through the wrong parts of the body; it's surprising how low the voltage can be. Conversely, when there's no real current, it's amazing how high a voltage can be without causing injury.)

Anyway, someone has warned them that the current in those foreign countries can ruin their Beloved Electronic Thing that they can't live without for two weeks. So they're trying to be smart by buying what for them is essentially a safety device--protection against those deadly French or Spanish voltages, or whatever. It doesn't occur to people that a "safety device" could burn up the very thing that it's supposed to protect.

The only time a piece of my audio equipment was damaged in this way happened in Japan about 25 years ago. The line voltage in Japan is 100 V and the current is at 50 Hz. The equipment might have withstood one or the other, but not both; the power transformer was destroyed. Again, your average Radio Shack salesman from back then would probably tell a customer, "100 Volts--that's less than 110, and 50 Hz is less than 60; you'll be safe, but the music that you hear over the radio might go a little slower than normal."

One aspect of my life that might have made an amusing (for geeks) documentary would be my conversations with other customers in Radio Shack stores when I happened to be shopping there myself. I'll just say that I've evoked some interesting mixed reactions from salespeople over the years. (Actually, I find that many of them are better trained today than they used to be.)

--best regards

[Matt Quinn]

One aspect of my life that might have made an amusing (for geeks) documentary would be my conversations with other customers in Radio Shack stores when I happened to be shopping there myself. I'll just say that I've evoked some interesting mixed reactions from salespeople over the years. (Actually, I find that many of them are better trained today than they used to be.)

--best regards

Radio Shack: You've Got Questions, We've Got Blank Stares. 

[DSatz]

P.S.: Tonedeaf, the European standard voltage today is 230 Volts, not 220. 220 V was the standard particularly in Germany, while 240 V was standard in the UK. During the past 20+ years there has been a gradual movement toward the middle, however, and all new devices made for sale in EC countries are supposed to operate at 230.

You may find some places in which the older voltages are still supplied, though, so equipment that can handle a wide tolerance range is preferable.

--best regards

[stevetoney]

P.S.: Tonedeaf, the European standard voltage today is 230 Volts, not 220. 220 V was the standard particularly in Germany, while 240 V was standard in the UK. During the past 20+ years there has been a gradual movement toward the middle, however, and all new devices made for sale in EC countries are supposed to operate at 230.

You may find some places in which the older voltages are still supplied, though, so equipment that can handle a wide tolerance range is preferable.

--best regards

Interesting.  Wonder if a country has to comply with this newer standard as one of the conditions for being allowed into the EU?

[DSatz]

OK, the T143 supply has arrived from Grace, and it isn't the one shown in the B & H photo mentioned above. It's fairly clear that there was some mixup between Grace and B & H, since the supply shown in B & H's ad is noticeably smaller than this one, and has an output voltage suitable only for a 12-Volt V3.

The output voltage of the T143 is 7.5 VDC (regulated) and the input voltage range is 100 - 250 VAC. The input power cable is a stock, standard IEC 3-prong detachable power cable; therefore no worries about "what if I lose this one," since I have a dozen of these and they are a stock Radio Shack item as well.

So this is not a wall wart; it's more like a typical power supply for a laptop computer.

The output cable is also very solid--no worries about strain relief at the connector (see photo; a white DVD-R is beneath the supply for size reference).

--best regards