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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: gambra on December 05, 2017, 10:58:01 PM

Title: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: gambra on December 05, 2017, 10:58:01 PM
I've been taping shows for years now with the Edirol R-09 unit with the internal mics. I'm looking to move on after all this time preferably to another all in one/internal mic unit. I'd rather not have a full mic/preamp/battery box rig unless there's a single mic that's now recommended for around the €150 region that doesn't need external power.

Edit: Before anyone asks I only do stealth tapings.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: heathen on December 06, 2017, 12:28:52 AM
Is €150 your total budget or just your budget for external mics?
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: MakersMarc on December 06, 2017, 11:12:04 AM
I'm sorry if this offends, but you'll improve recordings a thousand percent by investing in a pair of new or used church audio cards. Should be within your budget. Others can chime in re: whether the pip on the Edirol will power the mics or if a battery box is needed.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: obsidian on December 06, 2017, 05:48:42 PM
I'm sorry if this offends, but you'll improve recordings a thousand percent by investing in a pair of new or used church audio cards. Should be within your budget. Others can chime in re: whether the pip on the Edirol will power the mics or if a battery box is needed.

+1
It doesn't even have to be Church Audio Mics. Sound Pros, Mic Madness and Core Sound all make some amazing mics to fit just about any budget. I use Naiants to stealth (if that is the goal) and have had amazing results using just them and the mic input (mic power).  A battery box will push the mics a little better but if simplicity is what you want - then nothing wrong with using mic-in power. Still better than the internals by a long shot.

Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: Moke on December 06, 2017, 05:52:44 PM
I've recorded in the Persian community for quite a while. When I started up, I'd attend shows where there was a lady who had a shoebox style portable mono cassette recorder.  It always amused me, bringing me back to 1969/70, and trying to capture my favorite songs from 93KHJ AM radio Los Angelels, from my transistor 8-Ball radio 1.5" speaker, with a similar shoebox deck, and, included outboard plastic mic..

At any rate, she'd be in the hall early, and sit next to the center aisle, hit record, and place it on the floor next to her in the center aisle.
I asked if she'd like to have copy of mine, with permission from the ensemble. She said no, that she was quite happy with hers; mono cassette from an early 70's recorder, with single built-in mic; this in 2005+ or so.
We'd exchange nicities at just about all of the concerts around So.Cal, and she kept her mono deck fed and spinning.
It doesn't always have to be about righteous fidelity to keep people happy.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: ilduclo on December 06, 2017, 06:07:11 PM
Hiya, G!

$177 is a little low for a used m10 but the zoom h4 is close to that as is the tascam dr40 and the roland r5.  Zoom 1 and Tascam dr5 are lower. Zoom Q3 HD is usually under that $177 limit and does video and audio. Bradleybee on dime uses one and gets good captures.

 
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 06, 2017, 06:08:21 PM
^ Great story. 

Everyone here is right.  Find your own comfort/quality zone.  If you decide to use external mics the suggestions above are what most around here would choose to do (most using a battery box, some straight in powered by the recorder's PIP).  The good news is that if you want to stick with internal microphones, most of the remaining available modern handheld recorders have considerably better internal microphones than the venerable R09 which was a great recorder for it's time, but the internal mics were nothing special.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: Moke on December 06, 2017, 06:34:11 PM
I'm curious what the 70d internals sound like. The only time I used them, I recorded the inside, bottom, of my recording bag, as part of a four channel recording effort.
Duh.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: obsidian on December 06, 2017, 07:07:15 PM
^ Great story. 

Everyone here is right.  Find your own comfort/quality zone.  If you decide to use external mics the suggestions above are what most around here would choose to do (most using a battery box, some straight in powered by the recorder's PIP).  The good news is that if you want to stick with internal microphones, most of the remaining available modern handheld recorders have considerably better internal microphones than the venerable R09 which was a great recorder for it's time, but the internal mics were nothing special.

I am the Worlds biggest Gutbucket fan. Whatever he suggests is usually the best advice you can get. No joke, once a week I also come on and search out his posts. I have learned so much. His efforts, as well as the efforts of many on here, is what makes this site so amazing.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 06, 2017, 09:55:43 PM
Shhh. It'll go to his head.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: nak700s on December 07, 2017, 06:03:16 PM
I'm sorry if this offends, but you'll improve recordings a thousand percent by investing in a pair of new or used church audio cards. Should be within your budget. Others can chime in re: whether the pip on the Edirol will power the mics or if a battery box is needed.

I agree 100%.  I personally use the set up you speak of... CA-14c > CA9200 > Edirol R-09HR.  It is affordable and small.  All has walked through metal detectors with no problems, and make wonderful recordings.  I have the alligator clips on the mics (an option from Church Audio) and clip them inside a mesh baseball cap.  I'm not fond of having them in the hat, but it puts my mics at head level, not inside a crowd, and is definitely worth it.  The Edirol R-09HR is an excellent small recorder, and if I remember correctly, when it came out, those internals were the best rated...although I don't use the internals unless I'm screwed or taping myself playing just for a quick reference. Stick with that machine if it's still working well, you'll miss the control configuration if you don't!

Added:  I didn't realize you were using an R-09, and not an R-09HR.  Different mics!  The R-09's aren't terrible, but you'd be exponentially happier with externals.  By the way, although I don't recommend it, you can plug the CA-14c's directly into the mic in.  It will sound OK, but better if you use the pre (CA9200, which is about the same size as the Edirol).
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 08, 2017, 09:34:36 AM
The mics in the original R-09 were omnis, mounted too close together for really good stereo.  I think the internal mics in the R-09HR were cardioids and of better quality but I never used one of those.

If you do decide to make the jump to external mics and a preamp, the setup nak700s describes is a good target and should improve the quality of your recordings significantly.  You could use either omnis or cardioids in that case.  If you want to stick with only a recorder using it's internal mics, look for a recorder which is known for having good sounding internal cardioid mics and orient it in the appropriate direction when making the recording.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: gormenghast on December 08, 2017, 12:23:32 PM
IMO, and this depends on the concert, the Sony M10 will give you a good recording to start with if you EQ. 

Tears For Fears with the family I brought only my M10.  Recorded the whole show and did a little EQ after.  My daughter loves the recording.  It might not be for everyone but that doesn't matter to us.  I think it sounds very good actually, this coming from a person who taped mostly with Schoeps mics.  And I think most of my recordings suck.

Recorded my son's HS Jazz Band last year with the R05 internals and this year with a Zoom H2nPro.  The R05 needed a little EQ, but the Zoom didn't.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 08, 2017, 04:38:35 PM
Zooms get al lot of flack around here (at least they did prior to the F8), but their directional internal mics seem pretty decent from what I've heard.

M10 has internal omnis of much better quality than the original R-09 tonally and noise-wise, which is vastly more important than providing good stereophonic qualities, yet its stereo quality is limited by having both omnis mounted within inches of each other just like the R-09.

Fashion some kind of Jecklin-disk like baffle between the built-in omnis (using just a postcard or menu or something) and you can improve the stereo separation and stereophonic qualities of the resulting recording significantly.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: nak700s on December 08, 2017, 06:19:46 PM
Zooms get al lot of flack around here (at least they did prior to the F8), but their directional internal mics seem pretty decent from what I've heard.

M10 has internal omnis of much better quality than the original R-09 tonally and noise-wise, which is vastly more important than providing good stereophonic qualities, yet its stereo quality is limited by having both omnis mounted within inches of each other just like the R-09.

Fashion some kind of Jecklin-disk like baffle between the built-in omnis (using just a postcard or menu or something) and you can improve the stereo separation and stereophonic qualities of the resulting recording significantly.

Yup.  Personally, I wouldn't touch a Zoom, but the M10 is a quality machine.  I use coasters (from a bar) for a ton of things, and separation of channels would work with them as well.  If close enough to the source, like stage lip close, the separation is noticeable.  I still maintain that a pair of CA-14c's > CA9200 > Edirol R-09 would be a big step up and satisfy.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: daspyknows on December 08, 2017, 08:34:01 PM
I have read on here the Tascam DR-2D internals are on par with Schoeps.   ;D
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: Ben Turnbull on December 11, 2017, 01:05:29 AM
^ I picked up a DR-2d recently and have to say that I like their internals much better than the M10. There are some quirks with the rig that are frustrating, but for what I do with it... live mic a grand piano, mix in post... it's much better than the Sony.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 11, 2017, 09:25:12 AM
A friend and I sat at the same stage-lip table for a B3 trio a few years back.  We both recorded using DR2d recorders, his made with the recorder laying on the table using the internal mic, mine using four external microphones through a preamp.  I consider that an optimal situation for using the internal mics and his recording came out quite nice, I was quite impressed by it.  Wasn't nearly as good as the recording made with the external microphones, but very good sounding and perfectly acceptable.  They are cardioids and pull a decent stereo image when not placed too far away.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: nak700s on December 11, 2017, 12:24:07 PM
I have read on here the Tascam DR-2D internals are on par with Schoeps.   ;D

LOL, stop causing trouble  ;)
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: DATBoy on December 13, 2017, 07:22:18 PM
I can't speak for the R09's mics. personally, but I have a friend who owns one (not the 09HR model) and I believe his recordings have sound decent with the internals only. However, I can understand you wanted to look at something else as there is newer gear out there that might have better battery life and recording modes than the R09.

My work horse is the Sony PCM M10 (discontinued). Internal mics on the M10 are good, but I don't think they are as good as the R09HR that I also at one point owned. I can't speak much about the Edirol R05 model, as I never owned one and don't know anyone who has recorded internal mics with it only - but I assume it might be comparable to the R09HR. I can't imagine the quality being subpar.

I also own a Olympus LS-P2 as a backup. Not a bad recorder for being small and stealth looking and battery life seems decent for being one AAA battery. Haven't used the internal mics to test them out just yet, but it uses a three microphone system apparently. Was not too impressed with the way it handles my battery box and mics at certain shows. Seemed a little too bassy for my liking. I believe that shouldn't be the case, as I use the same external gear combo on the Sony and it works perfectly. However, it is a different recorder and different brand.

To answer your question - if you are looking for something else, maybe a R05 might be a better option if you don't mind the design of it and not being as compact as the Olympus LS-P2. I would recommend the Sony PCM M10 if you plan on getting a battery box and external mics because the mics aren't as good. If you stealth with the PCM M10, you still got plenty of options on how you can make that happen with that recorder with external gear. Not everything has to be big and bulky to make it sound great (in my opinion). I have already wrote a post previously about what I think is a good enough setup with the M10 when responding about the Roland CS 10EM mics in the mics section, that I've owned for years now and still use.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: furburger on December 13, 2017, 10:37:48 PM
re: the OG question.

nothing comes close to the Tascam DR-2D


and I mean nothing.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: ilduclo on December 14, 2017, 09:11:53 AM
The d50 in the yard sale for 200$ is a STEAL, and I've goo ten decent recordings with the internal mics on mine. Great interface, incredible battery life, too :bigsmile:
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: splumer on December 14, 2017, 09:31:00 AM
A friend and I sat at the same stage-lip table for a B3 trio a few years back.  We both recorded using DR2d recorders, his made with the recorder laying on the table using the internal mic, mine using four external microphones through a preamp.  I consider that an optimal situation for using the internal mics and his recording came out quite nice, I was quite impressed by it.  Wasn't nearly as good as the recording made with the external microphones, but very good sounding and perfectly acceptable.  They are cardioids and pull a decent stereo image when not placed too far away.

Wouldn't that make it into more of a boundary mic?
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: nak700s on December 14, 2017, 02:43:13 PM
I can't speak for the R09's mics. personally, but I have a friend who owns one (not the 09HR model) and I believe his recordings have sound decent with the internals only. However, I can understand you wanted to look at something else as there is newer gear out there that might have better battery life and recording modes than the R09.

My work horse is the Sony PCM M10 (discontinued). Internal mics on the M10 are good, but I don't think they are as good as the R09HR that I also at one point owned. I can't speak much about the Edirol R05 model, as I never owned one and don't know anyone who has recorded internal mics with it only - but I assume it might be comparable to the R09HR. I can't imagine the quality being subpar.

I also own a Olympus LS-P2 as a backup. Not a bad recorder for being small and stealth looking and battery life seems decent for being one AAA battery. Haven't used the internal mics to test them out just yet, but it uses a three microphone system apparently. Was not too impressed with the way it handles my battery box and mics at certain shows. Seemed a little too bassy for my liking. I believe that shouldn't be the case, as I use the same external gear combo on the Sony and it works perfectly. However, it is a different recorder and different brand.

To answer your question - if you are looking for something else, maybe a R05 might be a better option if you don't mind the design of it and not being as compact as the Olympus LS-P2. I would recommend the Sony PCM M10 if you plan on getting a battery box and external mics because the mics aren't as good. If you stealth with the PCM M10, you still got plenty of options on how you can make that happen with that recorder with external gear. Not everything has to be big and bulky to make it sound great (in my opinion). I have already wrote a post previously about what I think is a good enough setup with the M10 when responding about the Roland CS 10EM mics in the mics section, that I've owned for years now and still use.

The Sony PCM-M10 is a very good machine for its size and the battery life is ridiculous.  I have 2 of them and used them for most things before I got my 744T.  I still use them for festivals and shows I don't want to use my regular set up at.  They are wonderful and work just fine with a pre and any set of mics, and mics that don't need phantom power.  The internals aren't bad at all, but I don't normally use them for anything other than recording myself for reference.  The one time I was running late for a show I needed to record, I had to place it in front of the band, using the internals, until I was set up and able to use real mics.  It was way better than I expected it to be.  The mics, as you pointed out, are better in the R-09HR than in the M10 and the R-09.  They are more than likely better than the ones in the R5 too.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 14, 2017, 03:35:51 PM
A friend and I sat at the same stage-lip table for a B3 trio a few years back.  We both recorded using DR2d recorders, his made with the recorder laying on the table using the internal mic, mine using four external microphones through a preamp.  I consider that an optimal situation for using the internal mics and his recording came out quite nice, I was quite impressed by it.  Wasn't nearly as good as the recording made with the external microphones, but very good sounding and perfectly acceptable.  They are cardioids and pull a decent stereo image when not placed too far away.

Wouldn't that make it into more of a boundary mic?

Not a boundary mic, but you've astutely noted that the recorder's microphones were being used in a significant boundary-layer-condition.  The internal microphones of the DR2d are not designed specifically with boundary-layer recording in mind, yet since the recorder was placed within the boundary-layer-zone created by the hard table surface, the microphones were indeed working in a boundary-layer-condition throughout a significant portion of the frequency range. 

The difference is describing the design intent of the microphone verses the way they are setup and used.  Any microphone can be used in a boundary-layer-condition.  Some will be more optimized specifically for that by way of their design than others.   Also, consider that pretty much all microphones are working within boundary layer conditions to some degree with respect to the lowest frequencies, since they are typically used at distances from the floor which equate to less than half a wavelength of the lowest frequencies being recorded.  Most would not consider that specifically as a form of boundary-layer recording, yet technically the boundary-layer-condition is in play for that very low frequency range when there is a hard floor under the mics.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: fmaderjr on December 16, 2017, 10:04:39 AM
The d50 in the yard sale for 200$ is a STEAL, and I've goo ten decent recordings with the internal mics on mine. Great interface, incredible battery life, too :bigsmile:

The D50 internal mics sound 1000% better than the R09's. When I first got an R09 I made a test recording of a band with the internals. It sounded awful to me (not because of distortion) and I'm really not that fussy. I immediately sent it to Chris Church to replace the internals with his CA-11 cards. Then it sounded great, but I doubt if he does the mod anymore.

The D50 would be a good choice to improve your recordings if you don't want to use external mics.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: down2earthlandscaper on December 16, 2017, 03:29:11 PM
Another vote for the D50. I know a local Seattle taper who uses that deck exclusively for everything. He loves it so much that he snagged a 2nd one I had noticed that Trew Audio had listed in their used department.
$200 is a killer price for that too. Check around. People are trying to fetch upwards of $500 for them  :o
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: Gutbucket on December 18, 2017, 09:21:11 AM
When I first got an R09 I made a test recording of a band with the internals. It sounded awful to me (not because of distortion) and I'm really not that fussy. I immediately sent it to Chris Church to replace the internals with his CA-11 cards. Then it sounded great, but I doubt if he does the mod anymore.

The Mic-skateer mod.
Title: Re: Best internal mic unit to replace Edirol R09?
Post by: nak700s on December 18, 2017, 01:45:13 PM
By the way, I didn't mention this one earlier because it is a little larger than the R-09, R-09HR, M-10, etc.  The Edirol R-26 is an incredible machine that has surprised me on a several occasions as to the quality of recordings with those internals.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821260-REG/Roland_R_26_R_26_6_Channel_Digital_Field.html

This deck also gives a lot of flexibility with other microphones as well as multi recording patterns with the internals (cardioid and Omni).  As far as a deck this size, I don't think there's a better one, IMHO.