Topic: recommend an HD camcorder

[tailschao]

I use a Sony hdr hc9 mini dv camcorder, and i have nothing but good things to say about it. I love having the tapes because then i don't have to keep buying more hard drives to store the data. If you are going to go with tapes, do yourself a favor and buy a 50 pack on ebay for 100 bucks. The camera shoots in 1080i, and when uploaded to the computer, one hour is 38 Gb's of uncompressed HDV, unlike the hard drive cams which use about 13 Gb's an hour of vid, which is compressed. It's a breeze to edit my video in Imovie, i have all macs, and then send it to idvd which downconverts to SD to make a dvd. I record audio separately and dub in during the editing process. Here is a recent example, Midnite recorded in a small hall in Mill Valley, California on Feb 5  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxS3ii0zv0A. I think the Canons do a pretty good job too.

Something is going wrong here then. All HDV tape based camcorders record at a fixed, constant bitrate of 25 Mb/Sec. One hour of footage @ 25 Mb/Sec is 12 GB, not 38. AVCHD camcorders offer a choice as to the average Bitrate, in addition to having the bitrate fluctuate throughout the recording based on the level of complexity of the footage at that time. AFAIK the latest generation of AVCHD camcorders can record in 24 Mb/Sec, 17 Mb/Sec, 13 Mb/Sec and 9 Mb/Sec (this may vary slightly between manufacturers). At 24, the file size will be similar to that of HDV footage, just a tiny bit smaller possibly. As I said before, some day this same size will result in better image quality than HDV, but I'm not sure if they're quite there with the encoding chips yet.

Also, there is no such thing as "uncompressed HDV". HDV is compressed, as is all video footage (except uncompressed... obviously). 1 hour of 1920x1080 footage uncompressed comes out at something like 250GB+, assuming a YV12 colour space. HDV is compressed, as is AVCHD, as are Blu-Ray discs, as are DVDs, as is almost every piece of video you come into contact with. They are just different types of compression with very different algorithms invovled.

let's all hope over to the footage calculator:
http://www.digitalrebellion.com/footage_calc.htm

somehow or another, they think there is a such thing as uncompressed 1080p.

What? I said "uncompressed HDV" doesn't exist. Because it doesn't. Because HDV is compressed. "uncompressed [compressed video]". The phrase is an oxymoron. I never said "uncompressed" video doesn't exist. In fact, I even went on to talk about uncompressed 1080 video later in that very same post... am I missing something here?

[baustin]

I use a Sony hdr hc9 mini dv camcorder, and i have nothing but good things to say about it. I love having the tapes because then i don't have to keep buying more hard drives to store the data. If you are going to go with tapes, do yourself a favor and buy a 50 pack on ebay for 100 bucks. The camera shoots in 1080i, and when uploaded to the computer, one hour is 38 Gb's of uncompressed HDV, unlike the hard drive cams which use about 13 Gb's an hour of vid, which is compressed. It's a breeze to edit my video in Imovie, i have all macs, and then send it to idvd which downconverts to SD to make a dvd. I record audio separately and dub in during the editing process. Here is a recent example, Midnite recorded in a small hall in Mill Valley, California on Feb 5  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxS3ii0zv0A. I think the Canons do a pretty good job too.

man you get some good reggae around your parts. great job documenting it!

[nomotrouble]

All i know is when i plug my videocamera into my mac, open imovie and import, each hour of video makes a file about 38 gigabytes in size. A six minute song will make a 3.8 gb quicktime file if i save it at full quality. And its full 1080i. If i save it with less quality i can makes files all the way down to less than a megabyte, as it gets smaller the quality and sharpness goes down. Don't tell me this isn't what happens, because it is. Do any of you have mini dv HDV cams? And thanks for the complement on the vid, i'm learning...

[nomotrouble]

I used the term 'uncompressed hdv' because i assumed if mine is that much data per hour, and others are a third of that, they are compressed.

[Shadow_7]

Is there a purpose for your camcorder needs?  Talking head documentaries?  Or something with a bit more motion?  Something with not a lot of light?  Are you needing a lot of extras, HDMI out WHILE recording, time lapse, fast fps for slow mo in post, high bitrate for a lot of motion, long continuous record times, yada yada yada.......

Tape can be better looking in some situations.  Talking heads.  Because it is a constant bitrate.  But HDV is only 1440x1040 pixels of resolution.

SDHC gives you options in terms of light weight and low power usage.  And AVCHD can be 1920x1080 pixels of resolution.  But only 24Mbps to store it, or less.

I like my FH1 - 1080p60.  But it has it's quirks.  Stabilization is pretty horrid unstabilized and at full zoom.  But a lot of that can be compensated for with a little forthought and care.

Lot of options, some specialized, others more generally good.  HD2000 is good starter cam.  Canon's are generally good if you're an indie type.  Sony's if you mount your cams to race cars.  And other options.  The panasonic GH1 is a decent option, but still a bit pricey.  Canon 5D mk II or 7D on the higher end of things.  Lots of options for various purposes and levels of quality.

[tailschao]

All i know is when i plug my videocamera into my mac, open imovie and import, each hour of video makes a file about 38 gigabytes in size. A six minute song will make a 3.8 gb quicktime file if i save it at full quality. And its full 1080i. If i save it with less quality i can makes files all the way down to less than a megabyte, as it gets smaller the quality and sharpness goes down. Don't tell me this isn't what happens, because it is. Do any of you have mini dv HDV cams? And thanks for the complement on the vid, i'm learning...

Well the data recorded to the tape is definitely roughly 12GB per hour for HDV. Seriously dude, google the bitrate specification of HDV if you don't belive me. All sources & results will confirm that the bitrate of HDV on tape is 25 Megabits per second. 25 megabits divided by 8 = 3.125 megabytes per second. There are 60 seconds in a minute, and 60 minutes in an hour, 3.125 * 60 * 60 = 11250 megabytes. 11250 megabytes divided by 1000 = 11.250 gigabytes.

A correct HDV tape capture will simply copy the data from the tape as it is with no processing or encoding. If you get 38GB per hour, then the software you are using is re-encoding the data as it receives it. This will lower the quality, despite the fact that the filesize is higher. Raw copied untouhed 12GB HDV from the camcorder tape will look better than a 38GB re-encode of it. That's why I said originally that something was going wrong. I don't use Mac's, but I'm sure there is some piece of software that will copy the tape data without messing around with it.

It's ironic that your 38GB files are actually more compressed than normal HDV and even AVCHD because it's been encoded twice, as opposed to once 

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Good info guys.  Appreciate it.   Another question.  What are your thoughts on going used?  I know there is a video site similar to TS.com with a classified section.  I'm just kinda thinking I don't wanna mess with consumer gear.  You can get some good deals on stuff.  Like a Canon XL1 for $1400.

This is pretty badass.

[firmdragon]

going used is the way to go.  just make sure the heads have been cleaned regularly and that there aren't too many hours on it.  check for any blown out pixels.  Also check to see if there's problems unloading and loading the tape. 

imo, 1400 for a XL1 is a terrible deal.  my local craigslist has 2 of them going for around 900-1000. the demand for these things is veeeerrry low.  at this point i would advise buying any cam that's not HD, unless all you plan on doing is youtube/online media, even then i still think your $$ is better spent elsewhere.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Huh?  So you're saying don't buy an HD cam?  Sorry but I already have a non HD cam and it's crap.

[tailschao]

Huh?  So you're saying don't buy an HD cam?  Sorry but I already have a non HD cam and it's crap.

He mean't wouldn't, not would.

And you do realise that the Canon XL1 is standard definition, right?

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Ah that makes sense and no I didn't know it wasn't HD.   

[guitard]

Not all cameras have a cut off time, it is dependent of the card.
For example my panasonic point and shoot zs3 could record 8 gigs* of AVCHD video as long as the battery does not die.

*this is the size of my card so that is why I said 8 but it can take up to 32 gigs.

Can it record one continuous 8GB file?  Or is it one continuous video split onto smaller files?

The reason I ask is because I've noticed in several flash based video cams that the file sizes cut off at 2GBs.  That in and of itself is not a problem.  The problem is that at the end of each 2GB file, a split second of audio gets snipped off (around 15 frame's worth or so).  This isn't a major issue, but it still sucks having those audio blips in the video.  Note:  the video itself doesn't get snipped.

[Shadow_7]

Can it record one continuous 8GB file?  Or is it one continuous video split onto smaller files?

The reason I ask is because I've noticed in several flash based video cams that the file sizes cut off at 2GBs.  That in and of itself is not a problem.  The problem is that at the end of each 2GB file, a split second of audio gets snipped off (around 15 frame's worth or so).  This isn't a major issue, but it still sucks having those audio blips in the video.  Note:  the video itself doesn't get snipped.

It depends on the camcorder.  Some stop at 4GB (FAT32 file system file size limit).  Some stop and create a new video after 4GB with a slight pause while it finishes up.  Some do a binary break and just keeps chugging, but you've got to do a binary join to use the file.  Or use an editor that does that for you.

Nikon D90, Canon 5D mk II just stop AFAIK.
Sanyo HD2000 / FH1 pause.
Canon camcorders tend towards the binary break.

It sounds a little like you're dealing with a binary break where the GOP might be split in half across files.  Or I could be wrong.

[coloartist]

http://vimeo.com/9637770

Here is a video clip of The North Mississippi Allstars with the City Champs.

All the closeups are done with a Canon XHA1, and the full stage shot is an HV30.