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Author Topic: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?  (Read 14922 times)

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Offline techgui

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Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« on: March 24, 2011, 12:20:22 PM »
OK guys,  I have a Canon R10 camcorder which is supposed to record 2 channel Dolby AC3 audio.  Obviously the internal mics are poo.  What would be best, buy a field recorder (Sony M10 or Tascam DR-2d) or buy a decent external mic for the camcorder?  Before you even say it, I can't afford both.  My usage is video taping my daughters vocal recitals (accoustic piano and voice) and theater performances which use some amplification and recording a her singing with a club band.  By the way this Canon R10 camcorder does not have power for the mics. 

Any thoughts to point me in the right direction. 

Offline stantheman1976

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 01:34:12 PM »
Go with a recorder and sync audio in post.  You'll definitely get improved audio with a good mic but with a recorder you'll also have the versatility of using it for other projects if you need it.

I've got the DR-2d and besides the battery life it's a really good unit.  If you are recording a set or two from a band battery life won't be an issue but if you want to do a bunch of recording in one day you'll need an external power source or extra batteries.

The M10 has fantastic battery life but I chose to have directional mics if they are going to be fixed.  The M10 has omnis.

The dual record mode on the Tascam is cool too.  For music performances if you can get a sound board feed you can go line with the board feed and use the internals also or separate mics and get two perfectly synced sources.

Offline techgui

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 01:38:14 PM »
Can you use rechargeables with the DR-2d?

Offline willndmb

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 03:07:19 PM »
i like to go from my recorder into the camcorder
that way i have the main recording and the dubbing is also done on the spot
saves a ton of time but also gives me a "backup"
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline rastasean

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2011, 03:30:28 PM »
Any particular reason you need to video tape it? I hate to sound cynical but do you see yourself sitting down and watching it or listening to it on the stereo or in the car? I know there are neat things like ipads and iphones that can play the video wherever you are and I know you want to see your child, but focusing on audio and getting the best audio recording may benefit her to perform better.

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Offline techgui

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2011, 04:25:46 PM »
Well to be absolutely honest, I hate camcorders and always have.  My daughter is a voice major and needs these as audition tapes for various auditions that are impractical to travel to.  The last trip to NY cost me $250 with no return on investment.  Anyway I do like home audio recording and would like to improve on some of that equipment.  I would really like to pick up a Tascam DP-03 later this year.  So I want to keep the camcorder / field recorder business to a financial minimum.  But I like the idea of the DR-2d, since I can use it without the camcorder and the dual recording sounds useful.     

Offline stantheman1976

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2011, 04:32:42 PM »
Can you use rechargeables with the DR-2d?

Yes.  It actually has a menu setting for you to tell it whether you're using rechargeables or alkalines.

Online beatkilla

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2011, 08:23:48 PM »
I think you can disable the auto gain control on that camera at least i know you can with canon hv30.i would do that and put the recorder on her person with a lav mic.mix them in post or choose the better one.

Offline techgui

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2011, 08:36:24 PM »
Yes I can disable the auto gain, I did it recently when I used it with my Tascam PS 5. 

Offline rastasean

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2011, 01:20:49 PM »
Well to be absolutely honest, I hate camcorders and always have.  My daughter is a voice major and needs these as audition tapes for various auditions that are impractical to travel to.  The last trip to NY cost me $250 with no return on investment.  Anyway I do like home audio recording and would like to improve on some of that equipment.  I would really like to pick up a Tascam DP-03 later this year.  So I want to keep the camcorder / field recorder business to a financial minimum.  But I like the idea of the DR-2d, since I can use it without the camcorder and the dual recording sounds useful.     

What a very legitimate reason to own a camcorder. Good luck on whichever audio recorder you get. I have the pcm-m10 and like it because its nice and solid but I have heard many nice things about the tascam but I have not actually held it.

While you're checking out the Tascam DP-03, also look up the zoom r16 and r24 recorders. Both of these record audio directly to a SD card and you can connect it to your computer and use it with DAW software. I know the zoom line of products is thought of as cheap and impractical but I like my zoom r16 and it would give you experience to maybe upgrading to something more later. 
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Offline gearscout

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2011, 11:12:52 AM »
It's a tough call.

Make sure you've got your audio set at 48/16bit in the camcorder.

Why not rent or borrow a good microphone like a Rode VideoMic or Sennheiser ME66/K6 (power module included--WARNING! NOT CHEAP!) and try that.  Syncing the sound is a pretty joyless task every time you make a recording.  Use manual audio controls on the camcorder and aim for -12db peaks.

I think you would get somewhat better audio from a separate recorder but, frankly, the edit process would wear me down after a couple dozen syncs.  One of the unfortunate disadvantages of a flash memory camera is that there is no "automatic archive" on tape.  You've got to store multi-gigabyte sessions digitally.  This may also influence your decision since you are going to dealing with that anyway and a digital audio recorder isn't going to make much difference.

This is really a challenging mission you are on, Techgui.  The difference between a "recital with piano" and "club band" is HUGE.  With the former, I could be happy with either solution, but when I get to the latter, the club scene, I'm hoping to take a line output from the mixing board.  That tends to favor the separate audio recorder, IMHO.

Good Luck to you...and your daughter!




Offline techgui

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2011, 05:04:48 PM »
For the club thing I might be able to get a line out, but will that be too hot for the Tascam.

Offline gearscout

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2011, 03:45:45 PM »
techgui,

The audio recorder will need a LINE IN.  You can't use the MIC jack. 

You can, however, buy all kinds of "pads," including variable ones, that will drop the signal down a few notches.  Because these recorders all use a 1/8" mini-jack, you will need to buy a cable that goes from that to a female Cannon plug.  (Three pin, balanced line)  You will also probably want to buy a Male - Male Cannon turnaround, in case somebody's mixer has a female line out.

I think most club mixers are going to allow you to vary the line out amplitude.  But I have run into some that don't.


Offline techgui

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2011, 07:54:29 PM »
I decided to go with the Tascam DR-2d which does have a line input.  I think this will give me more options beyond just using with the camcorder.  And with the internal mics being cardioid, it's perfect for my applications.

Online beatkilla

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2011, 11:35:42 PM »
Dont forget to put an omni lav on your main subject.

Offline techgui

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2011, 05:47:44 PM »
I just happened to have a wireless Lav lying around. 

Thanks All for helping me make this decision...  I'm now the proud owner of a pearl white Tascan DR-2d.  Nabbed a GC deal for $170 plus tax.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 09:37:22 PM by techgui »

Offline Brian E.

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2011, 11:27:23 AM »
i like to go from my recorder into the camcorder
that way i have the main recording and the dubbing is also done on the spot
saves a ton of time but also gives me a "backup"

I never thought of that - so you go from the headphone jack into the camera?
my tapes:  The Archive | Dime | Etree

Recorder - Sony PCM A-10 | Cans - Shure SE535 | Mics - CA-14 Cards | Canon EOS 5D Mark II 17-40L f4 50 f1.4 70-200L f2.8 IS II 430EX II

Offline techgui

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2011, 12:12:08 PM »
Yes, works great.  But the output from the recorder is pretty hot.  I have to turn the Tascam DR-2d's output volume almost to zero or turn on the camcorders 12db attenuator.  With the 12 db attenuator turned on, the Tascam's output can be set to 3.  However, since other people in the family use the camcorder I don't want to have to engage the built in 12db attenuator.  Reason being, the day I forget to change the setting back, someone will use it and I'll be the bad guy.

So, the best solution is to order a Sescom LN2MIC cable.  It has 35db of attenuation built in and it's only 9 inches long.  Perfect for he job.  With this I can just plug it right into the camcorder without messing with any settings other than the output volume of the DR-2d.

  http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/746643-REG/Sescom_LN2MIC_TASDR100_LN2MIC_TASDR100_Line_Out_to.html

They also have these cables with 25db of attenuation.  If you want to see all the variations, just search "LN2MIC"

You can also build an attenuator, but considering the cost of the LN2MIC, it's just not worth it.

Offline Brian E.

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2011, 02:24:42 PM »
I use an Edirol R09-HR, so I can just adjust the headphone jack output :)
my tapes:  The Archive | Dime | Etree

Recorder - Sony PCM A-10 | Cans - Shure SE535 | Mics - CA-14 Cards | Canon EOS 5D Mark II 17-40L f4 50 f1.4 70-200L f2.8 IS II 430EX II

Offline techgui

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2011, 02:37:00 PM »
So can I, but my camcorders external mic input is extremely sensitive so I have to set the volume one click above zero.  I like to have a little more adjustability than that.  And as I said, I can set the camcorders mic input for -12db which works great, but I might forget to set it back.  By the way, I'm going this route because the wife and kid also use the camcorder.  And they are not interested in learning anything more than "on & Off" and "start recording & stop" .....  Otherwise I would just I turn on the built in mic attenuator and go to town.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 02:38:59 PM by techgui »

Offline Brian E.

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2011, 03:03:22 PM »
:)  sounds good.  I just tested it with the recording I had on my card from the last show I did, and I can set the camcorder to about 40 and the R09HR to about 60 and looks like it's not clipping.
my tapes:  The Archive | Dime | Etree

Recorder - Sony PCM A-10 | Cans - Shure SE535 | Mics - CA-14 Cards | Canon EOS 5D Mark II 17-40L f4 50 f1.4 70-200L f2.8 IS II 430EX II

Offline techgui

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2011, 03:19:30 PM »
I'd be very happy with that.. 

I was surprised how well the camcorders audio sounded when being fed a good signal from my DR-2d. 

Offline Brian E.

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2011, 04:16:45 PM »
actually with my Canon HFS200's mic attenuator on, I don't think I even have to mess with levels - it just cuts it to below clipping.  I wouldn't want it to be TOO hot; I can always boost in post.
my tapes:  The Archive | Dime | Etree

Recorder - Sony PCM A-10 | Cans - Shure SE535 | Mics - CA-14 Cards | Canon EOS 5D Mark II 17-40L f4 50 f1.4 70-200L f2.8 IS II 430EX II

Offline willndmb

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2011, 11:10:40 AM »
i like to go from my recorder into the camcorder
that way i have the main recording and the dubbing is also done on the spot
saves a ton of time but also gives me a "backup"

I never thought of that - so you go from the headphone jack into the camera?
well yes and no
the fr2le has a dual rca out but the headphone volume also adjusts the rca
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline Brian E.

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2011, 11:13:59 AM »
Cool.  I only have a headphone out on my R09-HR but it worked out well with my ATT in my camcorder.  Currently uploading it to youtube, will post when it's done.
my tapes:  The Archive | Dime | Etree

Recorder - Sony PCM A-10 | Cans - Shure SE535 | Mics - CA-14 Cards | Canon EOS 5D Mark II 17-40L f4 50 f1.4 70-200L f2.8 IS II 430EX II

Offline techgui

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2011, 08:35:46 AM »
I received this attenuator cable a few days ago, It's perfect. 


Yes, works great.  But the output from the recorder is pretty hot.  I have to turn the Tascam DR-2d's output volume almost to zero or turn on the camcorders 12db attenuator.  With the 12 db attenuator turned on, the Tascam's output can be set to 3.  However, since other people in the family use the camcorder I don't want to have to engage the built in 12db attenuator.  Reason being, the day I forget to change the setting back, someone will use it and I'll be the bad guy.

So, the best solution is to order a Sescom LN2MIC cable.  It has 35db of attenuation built in and it's only 9 inches long.  Perfect for he job.  With this I can just plug it right into the camcorder without messing with any settings other than the output volume of the DR-2d.

  http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/746643-REG/Sescom_LN2MIC_TASDR100_LN2MIC_TASDR100_Line_Out_to.html

They also have these cables with 25db of attenuation.  If you want to see all the variations, just search "LN2MIC"

You can also build an attenuator, but considering the cost of the LN2MIC, it's just not worth it.

Offline Brian E.

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2011, 09:06:47 AM »
Cool.  I only have a headphone out on my R09-HR but it worked out well with my ATT in my camcorder.  Currently uploading it to youtube, will post when it's done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8BUZe9C07I

the video vibrates due to no shock mount - but the audio is decent.
my tapes:  The Archive | Dime | Etree

Recorder - Sony PCM A-10 | Cans - Shure SE535 | Mics - CA-14 Cards | Canon EOS 5D Mark II 17-40L f4 50 f1.4 70-200L f2.8 IS II 430EX II

Offline techgui

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2011, 07:13:09 PM »
That sounds very good. 

Offline mmadd29

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2011, 09:02:00 AM »
I know I'm late to the party but I'll put my .02 cents in since I only do video.

I do four camera mixes, with mini DV camcorders, (HD coming later).  I have all the camera's set to do 48KHz audio 16 bit.  All my camera's only do 48KHz, as my understanding is that is the default DVD standard.

I then run a separate audio rig, Superlux mics > UA5 > iriver

I set the UA5 at 48KHz, and use the iriver as a bit bucket.

I use Vegas Platinum 10 to do the editing.  I just align the camera audio with the mastered audio track, and remove the camera audio.  I do this for all four camera's.  I have done well over 200 sets this way, and have never had any drift whatsoever.  Once aligned the audio is perfectly in sync through the entire set. 

Alignment takes me about 15 minutes for all four camera's.  As you start doing it more, it becomes quick and easy because you can start to visualize the sync points.

Next month I'm going complete 24 track audio, so that will be interesting, but as my real only hobby ( I do make some $$), I quite enjoy it.

If you have any questions or want some tip feel free to PM me.  I love talking about this stuff, as you can always learn something new no matter what someone's level is.
Superlux CM-H8K > UA5 > iriver h120 > Wave Labs > EAC

Offline Shadow_7

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2011, 01:02:48 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilqcVjasVsI

I just use an external recorder and sync in post.  But the version of my camcorder with audio inputs was $200 more than the other version (at the time).  I do have to adjust speed to make them match (when using clips longer than a minute plus).  But I have my reasons for going this route.  Lossless codec, LowPass filter before resampling to minimize aliasing, and other EQ things at 24/192.  Before going to 24/48 to sync with what the camcorder captures.  Ultimately out to 16/48 and then encoded to mp3 before going to youtube and AAC audio.  i.e. the long road.

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2011, 10:06:52 PM »
I know I'm late to the party but I'll put my .02 cents in since I only do video.

Do you have any youtube videos?
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Offline sabre

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2011, 11:48:27 PM »
I use Vegas Platinum 10 to do the editing.  I just align the camera audio with the mastered audio track, and remove the camera audio.  I do this for all four camera's.  I have done well over 200 sets this way, and have never had any drift whatsoever.  Once aligned the audio is perfectly in sync through the entire set. 

Alignment takes me about 15 minutes for all four camera's.  As you start doing it more, it becomes quick and easy because you can start to visualize the sync points.

If you want to save some time with the external audio alignment, take a look at an program called PluralEyes. It's fully automates the process. It's a plug-in for Vegas Pro. (I'm not sure if it will work with Vegas Platinum)
A 30-day trial version can be downloaded from : http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2011, 02:26:43 AM »
As long as you don't do a lot of short clips, lining up the audio isn't much of a time suck.  At least relative to the time that it takes to decode/encode the video.  But then again if you have a super fast machine, it might be worth it to save a little time.

I've done basically 15 videos in 13 days on my new-ish youtube channel (DBorigami).  With video from an FH1, and audio from an AT3035 into an sound devices MM-1 into a Korg MR-1000.  Recorded at 1080p60 for video and 24/192 audio.  Rendered to 720p30 and 16/48 before upload to youtube.  Syncing the two audio tracks (camcorder and field recorder) takes less than a minute.  Most of which is load time for the file(s).  Although resampling and drift have already been computed at that point (scripted).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT75DPvB-RE

Offline mmadd29

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2011, 07:29:53 AM »
I know I'm late to the party but I'll put my .02 cents in since I only do video.

Do you have any youtube videos?

http://www.youtube.com/mmadd29
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Offline mmadd29

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2011, 07:30:44 AM »
I use Vegas Platinum 10 to do the editing.  I just align the camera audio with the mastered audio track, and remove the camera audio.  I do this for all four camera's.  I have done well over 200 sets this way, and have never had any drift whatsoever.  Once aligned the audio is perfectly in sync through the entire set. 

Alignment takes me about 15 minutes for all four camera's.  As you start doing it more, it becomes quick and easy because you can start to visualize the sync points.

If you want to save some time with the external audio alignment, take a look at an program called PluralEyes. It's fully automates the process. It's a plug-in for Vegas Pro. (I'm not sure if it will work with Vegas Platinum)
A 30-day trial version can be downloaded from : http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html

Thanks I will certainly look at that package..... :)
Superlux CM-H8K > UA5 > iriver h120 > Wave Labs > EAC

Offline mmadd29

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2011, 07:33:32 AM »
As long as you don't do a lot of short clips, lining up the audio isn't much of a time suck.  At least relative to the time that it takes to decode/encode the video.  But then again if you have a super fast machine, it might be worth it to save a little time.

I've done basically 15 videos in 13 days on my new-ish youtube channel (DBorigami).  With video from an FH1, and audio from an AT3035 into an sound devices MM-1 into a Korg MR-1000.  Recorded at 1080p60 for video and 24/192 audio.  Rendered to 720p30 and 16/48 before upload to youtube.  Syncing the two audio tracks (camcorder and field recorder) takes less than a minute.  Most of which is load time for the file(s).  Although resampling and drift have already been computed at that point (scripted).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT75DPvB-RE

Do you use place holder files?

I hear editing in HD is horribly slow, some have said they use rendered down files for editing, and then replace them when it's render time.
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Offline Shadow_7

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2011, 08:39:16 AM »
Do you use place holder files?

I hear editing in HD is horribly slow, some have said they use rendered down files for editing, and then replace them when it's render time.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  But none of my machines are even fast enough to "PLAY" the originals in "real time".  So I do convert my videos to a DVD format, just to view them and determine decent edit points (trim off first couple of seconds / content of interest is this many seconds which is X number of frames).  A side effect of which is the camcorders audio is extracted and converted to .wav files to use for syncing later.

But generally my "process" takes about 4 hours for every ten minutes of video converted.  But that includes the DVD version, viewing that to determine edits points.  Converting to the 720p version, and viewing that to determine that things happened as planned.  And I have multiple machines so it's not like I'm locked out of doing anything with a computer while those edits do their thing.  But I'm more of a weekend warrior, so I don't have any great need for massive throughput.  And I only have one camcorder, so edits are relatively simple. 

But I'm also a sync junkie so I'm doing a bit of math in there.  Down to the nearest sample based on the alignment of the 60p frame versus hard seconds.  For the 30p output (every other frame).  And making sure that audio exists past the last frame so the total video time ends on an exact second +/- 0 samples.  My actual camcorder footage with camcorder audio actually cuts audio out a frame or more before the end of the recorded video (one more reason to use an external field recorder).  Which makes my DVD authoring method cringe to say the least.  But I don't make that many DVDs to really justify my work flow (yet).

Offline mmadd29

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2011, 08:48:03 AM »
Do you use place holder files?

I hear editing in HD is horribly slow, some have said they use rendered down files for editing, and then replace them when it's render time.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  But none of my machines are even fast enough to "PLAY" the originals in "real time".  So I do convert my videos to a DVD format, just to view them and determine decent edit points (trim off first couple of seconds / content of interest is this many seconds which is X number of frames).  A side effect of which is the camcorders audio is extracted and converted to .wav files to use for syncing later.

But generally my "process" takes about 4 hours for every ten minutes of video converted.  But that includes the DVD version, viewing that to determine edits points.  Converting to the 720p version, and viewing that to determine that things happened as planned.  And I have multiple machines so it's not like I'm locked out of doing anything with a computer while those edits do their thing.  But I'm more of a weekend warrior, so I don't have any great need for massive throughput.  And I only have one camcorder, so edits are relatively simple. 

But I'm also a sync junkie so I'm doing a bit of math in there.  Down to the nearest sample based on the alignment of the 60p frame versus hard seconds.  For the 30p output (every other frame).  And making sure that audio exists past the last frame so the total video time ends on an exact second +/- 0 samples.  My actual camcorder footage with camcorder audio actually cuts audio out a frame or more before the end of the recorded video (one more reason to use an external field recorder).  Which makes my DVD authoring method cringe to say the least.  But I don't make that many DVDs to really justify my work flow (yet).

OK my terminology was in correct...they are called proxy files.  A buddy of mine who has done work for NBC says he uses this process and many pro's do because you need crazy fast multiple processors to do real time HD editing.

The process would be to trim the video, then create a rendered version in wmv. avi or whatever.  I believe that Vegas Pro allows this on the fly.  You use those rendered down files to do the editing with those files, once you doing editing, you replace the proxy files with the original files then render.  This process allows editing to go quicker, and you can render at night, and when you wake up in the morning the rendering is done...

here is a link

http://forums.steves-digicams.com/sanyo/160760-using-proxy-files-editing-vegas-pro.html

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Offline Shadow_7

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Re: Camcorder - External mic or Field Recorder?
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2011, 09:47:40 PM »
OK my terminology was in correct...they are called proxy files.  A buddy of mine who has done work for NBC says he uses this process and many pro's do because you need crazy fast multiple processors to do real time HD editing.

The process would be to trim the video, then create a rendered version in wmv. avi or whatever.  I believe that Vegas Pro allows this on the fly.  You use those rendered down files to do the editing with those files, once you doing editing, you replace the proxy files with the original files then render.  This process allows editing to go quicker, and you can render at night, and when you wake up in the morning the rendering is done...


This is basically my flow of sorts.  Except that all of my editing is done on the linux command line.  Bash + ffmpeg.  The only gui of sorts is using mplayer to watch the playable videos and monitoring the timer on the xterm to notate the needed edit point(s).  I could use cinelerra, lives, kdenlive, and others, but I don't.  I doubt my system meets the minimum specs.  And since my process is scripted, I can change the X and Y resolution to anything and it'll get applied to the 1st generation camcorder input.  Normally I leave it on 720p, because my computers are not fast enough, my hard drives not big enough, and other most folks watching it are only going to view the 360p version.  And in reality, once you factor in actual lines of resolution of the camcorder, it's not really much more than a 720p camcorder anyway.  But it's scripted so I can launch that and go fishing, or sleep.  For edited video, I have to basically do it twice.  Once to watch it and determine the edits.  And a final encode at any resolution.  But there's different scripts and parameters to make the first gen fast-ish to watch it for content.  And the final slow-ish for max quality.

I've got my process setup this way so that I can extract the frames as images and do additional processing on them.  With various image manipulation programs and even a custom green screen code (modified ppmchange).  Generally I run the frames through batch-lab-colorboost for gimp.  There's just something about that which enhances the perceived resolution / sharpness of the images.  Which kind of makes your $300 camcorder look like a $1K+ camcorder.  But it's slow as molasses so I don't really do that on everything, or even most things.  Only one of my current youtube videos has that process done on it.

Mexican Eagle eats a Rabbit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocuf-8peRqU
(batch-lab-colorboost variant / changed for ppm files)

In the end it's ffmpeg that decodes and encodes the result.  Except for my DVD variant that uses mjpegtools and mpeg2enc + mplex.  Something to do with dvdauthor that made me go that route.  Namely single image menu items and ogle quirks.  But since I'm generally treating each frame of video as a picture / image, I can literally do anything to the images.  Use the images as a skin to a povray scene.  Overlay, fade, blend, whatever an image manipulation program can do.  If you've got the time and HDD space.  And coding skills to add anything ultra-custom-ish.  In theory it also allows me to use my image, without using my image.  As in the alpha mask from the green screen, but my actual image can be mangled.  Gimp's alien-map or predator plugins, or just the photocopy plugin to make it more cartoon-ish, without having to know how to draw.  It's a bit too hands on to be a viable editor or editing method.  But it has it's uses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDLNEZ_dOiU
(povray scene with video frames as a skin)

I pretty much always use external mics and a field recorder though.  I'm more of an audio guy with the necessary evil known as video to supplement that.  Although I like that I get to combine all of my skill sets into one medium.  Even though writing code is a bit of a lost art form given that you can buy most of that functionality off the shelf in a lot of cases.

 

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