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Author Topic: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?  (Read 15190 times)

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Offline randelph

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On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« on: July 24, 2012, 12:09:51 AM »
I've got an Edirol R-09, and more often than not I end up just using the onboard mics.  Don't like them all that well unless they're pretty close to the source, hence my question.

These days I see that there are portable digital recorders with different mic configurations, from m/s, to surround to a combo of omni/cardiod.

For someone like me, that wants to simply place the unit in the room using the onboard mics, what units would you recommend for the most natural, dimensional sound.  Sometimes I'm in close proximity to what is being recorded, but more often than not I'm in rooms of varying sizes, some with considerable natural echo.


Offline Napo

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 05:58:16 AM »
I am pleased with the internals of my Sony M10. Close to the source, they pick up bass sound well.
CA-11's>CA-9200>M10


Offline anr

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2012, 07:52:57 AM »
To give you an idea, here are two short samples.  First is an Edirol RO-9, second is a Zoom H2.

The Edirol has a nice smooth sound, while the H2 is a tad harsh toward the top end.  There are many on here who will say both are crap, but they won't listen to them.  But please do, you'll be surprised.  I had 4 versions of each of these shows, 3 made with external mics, plus these.  I kept these out of choice.  Of course, that's not always the case, but it does show what internals are capable of. 


http://www.sendspace.com/file/lu1kka

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ewh5da

Offline wppcproductions

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2012, 02:47:48 PM »
The 09HR mics are ok for low volume But in loud music you will get a clicking sound and distorted recording.Thats what I endup with.I had to use the external mics to fix this problem.

The outer day I recorded a thunderstorm.It came out awesome with the internal mics.

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 07:17:00 AM »
By far the best sounding internal mics are the Chris Church modded R-09 ("Micsketeer Mod") with cardioid caps. He replaces the internal mics with CA-11 caps and I think adds resistors so that they will record high sound pressure levels without distortion running off the limited voltage provided by the recorder. This recorder sounds just as good as CA-11's > battery box > R-09 except that you can't place the mics wherever want like you could with external CA-11's. It would be perfect for moderately loud to loud shows, but would not be ideal for very quiet stuff since the R-09's preamp is not the greatest. I've run it as a backup recorder at rock shows where I had to patch a few of its tracks into the main recording (CA-14's > Littlebox > recorder) and none of the band members noticed any difference.

I would seriously consider asking Chris Church is he still performs this mod. I'm guessing it might cost around $125 shipped.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 07:29:07 AM by fmaderjr »
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline aaronji

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 08:01:01 AM »
To give you an idea, here are two short samples.  First is an Edirol RO-9, second is a Zoom H2.

The Edirol has a nice smooth sound, while the H2 is a tad harsh toward the top end.  There are many on here who will say both are crap, but they won't listen to them.  But please do, you'll be surprised.  I had 4 versions of each of these shows, 3 made with external mics, plus these.  I kept these out of choice.  Of course, that's not always the case, but it does show what internals are capable of. 


http://www.sendspace.com/file/lu1kka

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ewh5da

Personally, I don't think either of those samples are all that good.  I don't think I'd use the word "crap" to describe them, but definitely not great.  And, yes, I did listen to them.  The Edirol recording has a lot of hiss.  The Zoom sample has some distortion.  Both are lacking in the high and low ends.  I am surprised these are better than the external mic recordings...

In addition to the D1, which is really expensive, I have heard some pretty good recordings using the internal mics on the D50.  And Olympus claims to have the "best-in-class microphones" on the LS-100 (I've never heard anything taped with them, though)...

Offline anr

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 10:36:22 AM »
aaronji

Thanks for listening and the comments, which I agree with although personally I like the low end sound on the Edirol one.  My point is they are far better than the externals which, if I recall, were carelessly recorded from not very good seats in what are poor sounding venues.   In parts they were better, but the internals were consistently tidy.  They were recorded from the stage and the H2 taper's notes, for example, say exactly what you said - slight distortion. 

But on the positive side you can make out all the words, which is rather the point with a singer/songwriter.  I've heard many recordings with high end gear of shows where the vocals are completely buried. 

However, the object was to provide an illustration of what internals can do.  This is it, and I fully recommend investing in a decent set of externals and a battery box.  Then get a decent seat and hope that everyone else in the recording chain does their bit, as you can't control them. 


Edited to add, this was done with an Olympus, but don't know the model.  It is truly, utterly dreadful.  (Same artist, same venue but different show).  Forgot I had this.  Don't ask for a copy as I'm deleting it!! 


http://www.sendspace.com/file/u9uq84
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 10:44:48 AM by anr »

Offline aaronji

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 11:01:55 AM »
My point is they are far better than the externals which, if I recall, were carelessly recorded from not very good seats in what are poor sounding venues.   In parts they were better, but the internals were consistently tidy.  They were recorded from the stage and the H2 taper's notes, for example, say exactly what you said - slight distortion.

Location, location, location!  That's the crux of it, isn't it?  I'll bet that if the externals were in the same location as the internals, they would have compared (much) more favorably...

Offline thekittycatt

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 11:39:42 AM »
aaronji

I've heard many recordings with high end gear of shows where the vocals are completely buried. 

That could be a bad taper or worse yet, a bad sound engineer.

Offline acidjack

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 11:57:40 AM »
I've got an Edirol R-09, and more often than not I end up just using the onboard mics.  Don't like them all that well unless they're pretty close to the source, hence my question.

These days I see that there are portable digital recorders with different mic configurations, from m/s, to surround to a combo of omni/cardiod.

For someone like me, that wants to simply place the unit in the room using the onboard mics, what units would you recommend for the most natural, dimensional sound.  Sometimes I'm in close proximity to what is being recorded, but more often than not I'm in rooms of varying sizes, some with considerable natural echo.

Yes, I'm in the camp of people who think pretty much all internals are "crap", with the caveat that it depends what you're recording.  As noted above, with quieter material (i.e., not amplified rock) these things like the M10 and others can probably do a decent job. There's nothing inherently wrong with inexpensive omnidirectional mic capsules like what are in the R-09HR and the M10; heck the Church Audio mics everyone fluffs endlessly are themselves based on a very inexpensive mic element. 

BUT Church Audio and other low-cost mics used for taping modify those inexpensive components or add appropriate other modifications to the signal chain to make them acceptable for recording amplified music.  They can actually take high sound pressure levels (SPL).  Ignore the published specs on these recorders; they won't tell you anything (i.e., if it says it can take 110 or 120dB SPL, it's lying). 

Placed properly, if they aren't overloaded, some of these recorders can do a fine job.  Onstage jazz, for example. Or there was an acoustic show I went to a few years ago, with my Schoeps back by the board and some other guy running an M10 up closer to the stacks. Haven't heard his pull, but if people near him were quiet enough, his pull might well be better than mine. 

But if you intend to record amplified rock, these internal mics will almost certainly distort. 
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Offline hoppedup

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2012, 03:47:37 PM »
I steered some folks on Yarn's fan forum toward the Tascam DR-08. It makes passable internal recordings in the right conditions and can be had for $70 at B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/673340-REG/Tascam_DR_08_DR_08_Portable_Digital_Audio.html

Here's a recent show from one of those guys: http://archive.org/details/Yarn2012-07-19

I just listened all the way through and it's not bad. A lot of folks just don't want to spend a lot of money or just want to occasionally tape a band. It is one of the few small digital recorders with cards.
AKG SE300B CK91
JB Mod NAK 300 CP1 - CP2

Tascam DR-40, Tascam DR-60D, Tascam DR-22WL, Marantz PMD-706
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7K

↑↑↓↓←→←→ BA Start
         


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My recordings on LMA

Offline randelph

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2012, 08:02:36 PM »
OP here.  The recordings several of you posted (thanks) are of the quality that I was speaking of.  It wasn't so much the distortion, frequency characteristics, etc., that I don't like, as much as the overall sound which sounds a bit indistinct and like it's coming from a distance.

Basically what I'd like to know is if some of the fancy mic configurations available today capture what you, the listener are hearing at that place in the room, as compared to being a slightly hollow facsimile like most of my recordings using the internal mics sound like.

I'm intrigued by the Roland R-26, cause you can capture from both the omni and cardiod stereo microphones and mix them together after the fact as desired.  Some of the Zoom recorders feature mid/side recording using the built-in mics, and I'd be curious to know the results of that, as well as some of them use 4 mics at once, supposedly for more of a sound that upon playback sounds like you were sitting right there in the room.

There was mention of battery packs helping recording quality?  I use plug in power whenever possible.

@acidjack: I wouldn't bother to modify an older recorder like the R-09; it's long in the tooth!  I'd rather have a stock unit that sounds good to start with. 

Offline LikeASong

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2012, 08:40:45 PM »
If distortion is your main concern, I have to say that I haven't been able to make my (well, not longer "mine" but you get me) Zoom Q3 HD internals distort EVER, and I've recorded the loudest sources with it.  I also once made a recording where I was taping with the CA14's (cards) > CA 9100 ST, and then pulled the jack off the recorder and let the recording run with the internals for a good minute or two. It was surprising to see how well did the internals do compared with the CA14's, given it was a LOUD rock show at a club and I was like 2 meters from the big PA stacks. Sure the internals didn't have as much as dynamic range and clarity as the 14's, but you'll be surprised how well they do against them.  I will post that sample tomorrow!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 08:43:05 PM by LikeASong »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2012, 08:42:13 PM »
[snip] sounds a bit indistinct and like it's coming from a distance.

Basically what I'd like to know is if some of the fancy mic configurations available today capture what you, the listener are hearing at that place in the room, as compared to being a slightly hollow facsimile like most of my recordings using the internal mics sound like. [snip]

External mics, well placed (often significantly closer to the source than the original listener was for anything acoustic, PA amplified is more variable) and in an appropriate configuration (which often varies depending on the situation) is the secret to the bolded statement above if targeting speaker playback or listening by others.  If for your own listening over headphones, look into binaural recording with miniature omnis placed in your ears for an easier and less costly 'time machine, you were/are there experince'.  That is really the only way to reporduce something close to the actual sound that was entering your ears at the time.  Internal mics can make decent and enjoyable recordings in knowlegable or lucky hands, but will rarely produce the bolded experience.  Simply the wrong configuration and not enough flexibility.

If OK with lesser goals and using internals is a must, choose a recorder which uses directional internal mics.  Omnis simply will not work well as internal stereo mic configuration since they can never be spaced far enough apart on the machine or baffled well enough to make up for their close proximity to each other.
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