Topic: Recording electric guitar duo

[StarkRavingCalm]

I was asked by a friend to tape an art gallery function that he and other guitarist are playing at.
No word yet on venue\setup
Two electric guitars, mostly jazz and standards.

Any thoughts on mic pattern\placement\technique for this situation?

[cavekelly]

Assuming no vocals, such that the guitar amps are the only sound sources, definitely on-stage or stage lip depending on setup.  I would recommend spaced omnis if the crowd is quiet and respectful; if you anticipate significant crowd noise if would opt for cardiods in ORTF.  I have also had good luck with NOS.

[StarkRavingCalm]

Assuming no vocals, such that the guitar amps are the only sound sources, definitely on-stage or stage lip depending on setup.  I would recommend spaced omnis if the crowd is quiet and respectful; if you anticipate significant crowd noise if would opt for cardiods in ORTF.  I have also had good luck with NOS.

What would you recommend for omni spacing? 6'? 4'?
What is a good height for both on-stage and stage-lip?
Or does it not matter since I will be pointing at source?

[cavekelly]

For me personally it is all about convenience and unobtrusiveness.  I usually only carry one stand, an "onstage" weighted type, approximately 15" in height.  Set up either actually on stage, or on a table at stage lip.  I have an extension that can raise the stand another 7" or so.  I have two mic bars, one about 12' and another probably 20".  I will use the later for omnis.  I don't think you need the type of spacing you are talking about for a simple two guitar setup.  As to height, when a full band is playing I generally try to be at approximately the height of the snare.  With the two guitar setup, your sources are probably less than a foot above the stage, so height is not quite as critical.

[Gutbucket]

Guessing this is all instrumental with two guitar amps placed on the floor.  Is there even a stage?

Guitar cabinets become very directional in their projection of sound in the presence range.  With two guitar amps placed on a hard-surfaced floor, the sound emission sort of flows across the floor for a surprisingly significant distance where it remains sounding quite close and direct.  You can effectively make a recording which sounds like the microphones were placed much closer to the guitar amps than they actually were (which could be described conversely as picking up less ambient sound from the room and audience) by placing the mics at or just above the level of the floor and orienting the amps so that they face the microphone position.   The boundary effect becomes more significant as either the source or microphone is moved closer to the floor, and when both are right against the same plane the effect sort of couples and is maximized.  It's a cool 'on-stage sonic stage zoom' trick you might use to advantage.   The presence effect of being on-axis with the face of the driver(s) in the cabinet diminishes as the mics are moved much higher than to top of the amps.

Keeping the mics near floor level also positions them as far as practical from talking mouths, out of sight-lines, and hopefully out of the way of everyone. Convenient and unobtrusive.  Just make sure your gear won't get trampled upon or is creating a trip-hazard. 

Either ORTF or omnis could work.  ORTF is an obvious, easy and a straight setup and probably a good primary choice.  I'd probably aim to set it up within 5' to 6' away if possible.  Omnis can work too even in a talkative room if the two amps are not too far apart and the microphones can be placed relatively close to them, say about 3' away or so, spaced maybe 2' apart.  That might even end up with less chatter than the ORTF recording.

If possible run both.  Then you can use which ever you like better and gain invaluable first-hand insights by listening to and analyzing the differences in them.

[acidjack]

^ I would more than second spaced omnis cardiods ORTF unless that crowd is silent and the room perfect. Few things have disappointed me more than omnis, especially high-end ones up close.

[StarkRavingCalm]

Just found out the exhibit is actually a private party in a private home.

Does this change any of the recommendations?
Any additional considerations?

[Gutbucket]

Well, the performance space may be smaller and boxier sounding, so you may want to position the mics closer to the sound sources.  Audience noise may be better or worse, depending on if the patrons are silent listener types or it's more of a cocktail party with background music.

If you do choose to use omnis, it's probably best to boundary mount them directly against the floor, ceiling or a wall, near the sound sources.  That will do a lot to reduce the reverberant boxy ambient room sound of a small enclosed space.  Doing that more-or-less 'erases' the audible reflections encountering off that mounting surface and sort of helps to 'zoom in' on the non-reverberant aspects of the sound with a clarity atypical of omnis mounted in free space.  First time I did that it was ear-opening and I was quite surprised the effect worked as well as it did.

If you can, run both a pair of directionals near-spaced (maybe supercards in stead of cardioids if the room is small) and the boundary-mounted omnis spaced a few feet apart.  Then you're covered and can keep whatever's better.

[Gutbucket]

'zactly. Without time to edit last night after the post, l was heading back this morning to fix that.  Thanks for the sharp eye and correction.

[bombdiggity]

Just found out the exhibit is actually a private party in a private home.

Does this change any of the recommendations?
Any additional considerations?

House concerts are one of my favorite things to record (and we also host them from time to time).  I'd try to get in touch with the host to arrive a little early and get set up.  The general rules are not to take up too much space (usually quite limited in these settings) nor be a PITA/block the views.  Setting the equipment in advance makes the audience aware of any obstructions or places they need to be careful around so helps with getting the right surroundings.  Crowds are usually exceptionally well behaved ("listening crowds") as opposed to the usual club/venue audience. 

The recording setup is not much different than anything else and all the considerations here are valid if the actual setting aligns with the techniques. 

[StarkRavingCalm]

So I taped the duo last weekend.
I had fully intended to run a 4ch mix with split-omnis and ORTF cards.
Unfortunately, I got there with minutes to spare and, given the space they where playing in, split-omnis would have been too obtrusive.
So ORTF it was...


Luckily the people were quiet and respectful but I am still not sure how I feel about the recording.
I love the sound of picks hitting strings and fingers sliding but it does sound a little to close.

I have attached a song and picture. Looking for advise.

I feel like the mics should have been lower but I defer to the group on this...
But on that subject,what is a good base only I can use with the following:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/33185-REG/Matthews_429499_Telescopic_Baby_Stand_Extension.html



Thanks to everyone for their advise on this!

[Jonmac]

I see you are using the Tascam DR-60D, how are you finding it for this sort of job ?

[acidjack]

I don't think that's too close at all. listening on my computer's monitors (Audioengine A5+) it sounds like it could use some EQ and maybe some imaging, if you wanted to blend the channels some, but I think it's nice. I also think omnis would have been worse and 4ch likely no better.

[Gutbucket]

[snip]what is a good base only I can use with the following:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/33185-REG/Matthews_429499_Telescopic_Baby_Stand_Extension.html

I like this base.  It folds for travel and is nice and low.  The legs are steel so it does have a bit more weight to it than a small all-aluminum light-stand. The photo above shows a standard removable stud in it.  I bought one which came with a single telescopic extension that can be used separately, but I've also put a Shure vert-bar directly into it for super-low on-stage stereo recording.  I later drilled and taped the other two legs so I can also attach mics to the end of each leg to form something of a ground-plane Decca-tree arrangement. 

Here it is setup that way at a living-room gig with three ADK TLs but without anything in the center, placed just forward of a taller light-stand with an ~ORTF pair.



Not sure what make mine is but B&H seems to carry multiple brands with wildly varying  price-points for basically the same thing including a telescopic pole.  last I checked they also carried just the folding base without any extension.

I'll have to give your recording a listen later, thanks for the follow up and sample.

[StarkRavingCalm]

I see you are using the Tascam DR-60D, how are you finding it for this sort of job ?

First in this type of setup, no complaints.
Love my 60D