Topic: Buying and customizing a pair of dpa 4061's - What should I be aware of ?

[fandelive]

Hello,

I think about buying a pair of dpa 4061's.
I know Core Sounds sells them, but I'd rather buy them from another shop and do a bit of customization myself...

So I want to get two of these : http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=128&item=24039.

I guess I have to ask the shop to check that both caps are matched before sending them to me ?
What would be a realistic dB gap I can expect from those caps and demand ? Less than 1dB ?

About customization now, my goal is to cut-off the original microdots connectors and to merge both cables ends in one single Y-type pair of mics terminated by one 3.5mm stereo jack (like the one sold by Soundprofessionals for example).

I want to use them with my Church Audio ST-9100 preamp. Any counter-argument for that ?

Any other things I should be aware of ?

Thanks,
-fandelive

[2manyrocks]

If you are buying them new, looks like DPA's stereo mic kit would be the most flexible way to go and would give you a matched pair to start with.  Only issue is they are oriented towards XLR connectors that way. 

If you can find a pair of them used, then I suppose you can terminate them however you want without feeling that you've just depreciated the value of your purchase.

I don't know what voltage the 9100 outputs. As I recall, the 4061s will fry if you give them more voltage than they were designed to handle. 

 

[Ultfris101]

You should be fine with a CA-9100 if it's standard as they typically are made to put out Plug-In Power (PIP) compatible which is generally between 5v and 9v. Probably in the 7.6v range.

I had Chris Church make me a short adapter cable that goes from a stereo 1/8" male to two female microdots. Allows me to keep the microdots intact, which are really nice connectors by the way, and utilize my CA-9200 preamp or other similar pres or battery boxes which put out PIP on a 1/8" female jack.

There are several threads here on this topic. I'll see if I can find one a link it.

You might consider applying your DIY skills to making yourself the adapter. The DPA "microdot" connectors are actually these RF connectors so you can buy a couple of those and solder up your own set. They aren't cheap but I think it's worth it.

I also have the option of using the DPA DAD6001 XLR adapters which convert 48v Phantom power to 9v.

Let me see if I can find one of the threads which has some details.

Edit: here's some more:

This are the connectors: http://www.pasternack.com/10-32-connectors-category.aspx

This thread by MIQ was very helpful in this regard: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160895.0

[aaronji]

I would definitely hesitate to mess with a 600 euro pair of 4061s unless I was very confident in my ability to do it successfully. The wires are really thin. I would either get a y-cable like Ultfris101 suggested or ask Church if he can retrofit your pre with microdots.

[adrianf74]

You have two choices here:

1) Buy a SMK which are matched, IIRC, around 2-2.5dB of each other but you get the 48V adapters and various other goodies. 

2) Buy a pair from Len @ Core Sounds.  His tolerance is ~1dB of each other.  I believe he can leave them as Microdots if you require.

Frankly, as others have mentioned, I'd leave the microdot connectors attached and get a microdot to 1/8" adapter cable from Chris Church (or whomever else can build one for you).  At least by doing this, you have the ability to run on phantom power with a recorder that handles XLR should you want/need that or run to the 9100 with the Y cable.

The "matched pair" thing is not a huge dealbreaker IMHO because you can adjust everything in post, and likely will, anyhow.

[fandelive]

You might consider applying your DIY skills to making yourself the adapter. The DPA "microdot" connectors are actually these RF connectors so you can buy a couple of those and solder up your own set. They aren't cheap but I think it's worth it.

[...]

This are the connectors: http://www.pasternack.com/10-32-connectors-category.aspx

This thread by MIQ was very helpful in this regard: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160895.0

Very useful information. Thank you very much Ultfirs101 !!

1) Buy a SMK which are matched, IIRC, around 2-2.5dB of each other but you get the 48V adapters and various other goodies. 

[...]

The "matched pair" thing is not a huge dealbreaker IMHO because you can adjust everything in post, and likely will, anyhow.

Like you said, I've seen DPA is also selling them by sets of 2 matched caps with alot of accessories (http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/Tech-Guide/Matching-Microphones.aspx).
Fact is I currently have two honest offers from two different guys, each selling one second-hand single 4061's... I could get my pair for less than 450 USD, which would be an amazing deal !

But I'm really really really afraid of getting a (let's say) 6dB or more gap between left and right channel...
Would this even be possible with two of the same product from the same manufacturer ? Could the gap be even larger than 6dB ?

My current set has a 3dB gap, which is already annoying because I'm losing plenty of room while recording but still OK with a little adjustment in post.
With a gap that is too large, I'm afraid of getting one barely audible channel and the other one with fairly low level. A case that post-production could not solve.

Frankly, as others have mentioned, I'd leave the microdot connectors attached and get a microdot to 1/8" adapter cable from Chris Church (or whomever else can build one for you).  At least by doing this, you have the ability to run on phantom power with a recorder that handles XLR should you want/need that or run to the 9100 with the Y cable.

If I finally decide to buy them, I'll take the advice of keeping the microdots and investing in an adaptater cable so I'll be able to use the mics with my 9100 or maybe to switch to a more fitted preamp later on.

[adrianf74]

Like you said, I've seen DPA is also selling them by sets of 2 matched caps with alot of accessories (http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/Tech-Guide/Matching-Microphones.aspx).
Fact is I currently have two honest offers from two different guys, each selling one second-hand single 4061's... I could get my pair for less than 450 USD, which would be an amazing deal !

But I'm really really really afraid of getting a (let's say) 6dB or more gap between left and right channel...
Would this even be possible with two of the same product from the same manufacturer ? Could the gap be even larger than 6dB ?

My current set has a 3dB gap, which is already annoying because I'm losing plenty of room while recording but still OK with a little adjustment in post.
With a gap that is too large, I'm afraid of getting one barely audible channel and the other one with fairly low level. A case that post-production could not solve.

Second-hand 4061's.  Do you know their lineage and what they've been used for?  They're pretty fragile and I'd be EXTREMELY hesitant to buy a pair of ex-theatre ("broadway") beaters.  As has been discussed on here many time before, the 4061 cables are fragile and the connection to the capsules is even more so). 

As far as your matching situation -- it's also been reported that you could see as much as 6dB between capsules.  Somebody once told me, "Buy nice or buy twice."  I've lived my life buying nice since then. 

[fandelive]

Somebody once told me, "Buy nice or buy twice."  I've lived my life buying nice since then.

I think I'm gonna buy nice better than buy twice.
Thank you

[Gutbucket]

The concern for me with buying these used is mostly their condition, and secondarily a well matched frequency response (typically related to their condition).  I'm much more concerned with those aspects than  a super-tight sensitivity match, which can be easily adjusted for, since I tend to level balance all of my recordings by ear anyway.  The new unmatched microphones I've gotten from DPA have had slightly different sensitivities, but have always had equivalent frequency responses.

Besides the main level knob, does the 9100 have miniature internal gain pot adjustments for each channel?  I use CA-UGLYs which have independent gains for each channel so the mic sensitivity imbalance can be adjusted for in the preamp.

But I'm really really really afraid of getting a (let's say) 6dB or more gap between left and right channel...
Would this even be possible with two of the same product from the same manufacturer ? Could the gap be even larger than 6dB ?

My current set has a 3dB gap, which is already annoying because I'm losing plenty of room while recording but still OK with a little adjustment in post.
With a gap that is too large, I'm afraid of getting one barely audible channel and the other one with fairly low level. A case that post-production could not solve.

I'd rather have them matched of course, but even a 6dB difference wouldn't overly concern me.  It's easily correctable afterwards.  I highly doubt a new pair would be off that much though.  If it makes you feel better, think of your current setup as having 3dB extra headroom in one channel.  Unless you find you are recording things with so much dynamic range that you are finding mic-self-noise defines the recording's noise-floor in one channel, AND you are near clipping at the loud end of the range in the other, then there is no problem with balancing levels afterwards.

[Gutbucket]

I record classical symphonic stuff with a huge dynamic range using four 4060s and I'm often re-balancing levels between the four by 10db or more and it's never been an issue.  It might be if I were be using 4061s in those super-low ambient noise-floor situations since they have a bit more self-noise.  But for most things, the recording's noise floor will be defined by the room and considerably higher than the self-noise of the 4061.

[Ziggz]

Who makes the Y-adapter cables these days? Chris Church no longer makes them.

[Gutbucket]

Len at Core Sound will make them.  Best to contact him by phone.

[darktrain]

Who makes the Y-adapter cables these days? Chris Church no longer makes them.

If you want to terminate to mini plug i have done this many times with theses
Mics, and turnaround is next day back in the mail once i get em. I could also do a y cable if you provide the female microdot parts.

[Gutbucket]

The standard DPA miniature microphone cable terminates with a male dot, so to mate with that a 'Y' adapter either requires two female microdots, or alternately male microdots + female threaded barrel connectors. (DPA extension cables are terminated with male dots at each end and use the female barrels at one end)

There are no female dots intended for cable terminations AFAIK, but they can be made-up using bulkhead-mount or PCB-mount style female dots.  MIQ's thread linked above shows one way to do it using the PCB-mount version.  Chris Church made them by epoxying female bulkhead mounts into short sections of brass tubing. 

Male micro-dot terminated 'Y' adapters can be made without the special DPA microdot crimping tools by re-using old dot-terminated cable ends cut from other mics which have been re-terminated to mini-plug, mini-XLR or whatever, as long as there is enough cable left attached to them to solder to the stereo mini-jack plug.  That's how I've done it in the past.

[Ziggz]

Who makes the Y-adapter cables these days? Chris Church no longer makes them.

If you want to terminate to mini plug i have done this many times with theses
Mics, and turnaround is next day back in the mail once i get em. I could also do a y cable if you provide the female microdot parts.

For the y cable, are these the connectors? http://www.pasternack.com/10-32-female-standard-thru-hole-pcb-connector-pe44359-p.aspx
From this thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160895.0

I grabbed some 4061s in the Yard Sale a year ago, with a MPS 6040 battery box. But man, they just not sensitive enough for the stuff I tape (the attached pic is a moderately loud rock band, taped outdoors about 15m from the speaker, with the M10 up to 10). So I'll keep the MPS 6040 and get some 4060's. I figure the 4061s will be easier to offload with a Y cable.

[2manyrocks]

Something about that seems amiss.  I have a set of 4061s with the HEB battery box from Core Sound running into an M10.   Recording choirs in church, I think I run no more than 5 and probably more like 3.5 on the M10, and have ample signal. 

[beatkilla]

When i ran the Dpa 4061 with Heb battery box the output was hot , i had to run an 11db attenuator to keep the M10 at around 4 or 5 on gain wheel,

[Gutbucket]

Yeah something seems amiss Ziggz.

4061 sensitivity = 6 mV/Pa, which is pretty average (similar to the AT853)
4060 sensitivity = 20 mV/Pa, which is considerably more sensitive, and makes for a pretty hot output that can overload some inputs when recording loud material without accommodating for it.

When these go bad, they often suddenly drop in sensitivity, but remain working.  Sometimes the frequency response suffers at the same time, but sometimes not.  That may be the case with your used 4061s.  You can send them to DPA USA and they'll check them to see if they are to spec.

Without attenuation, I suspect 4060 may be overly sensitive for you if recording 'moderately loud rock bands' or basically anything where the music is louder than the applause.

[acidjack]

^ [anecdotal response alert] I agree with Lee's conclusions generally. I would add just that 4061>9v BB>M10 line-in tends to be VERY non-sensitive -- to the point that getting good levels (above -12dB) can sometimes necessitate moving to mic-in/power off. I have heard recordings of plenty of amplified rock bands with 4060s that are fine; my suspicion is that if you "stack tape" or you record metal or other stuff that is super-loud, you'll exceed their limits. If you record arena stuff and club stuff FOB that is just "normal" loud, you will probably be OK. But that said, I've even heard stack tapes with 4060s. The safe/smart bet remains as Lee put it (loud rock=4061/jazz/acoustic=4060); just offering some additional perspective.

[Gutbucket]

Thanks, that confirms my suspicion that 4061>battbox>M10 should not pose an overload problem. 

However, since I don't use an M10 I'm not very familiar with it's gain structure or overload points, and I didn't want to state such outright.  I have had 4060's overload R-09 line-inputs for some very loud (but not stack taping) stuff back in the day.

[Ziggz]

Moderately loud might be a stetch, comfortable volume without earplugs.

I borrowed some 4060's for Joe Bonamassa (which was about the loudest thing I've been to), into the MPS 6040 -> M10, think I ran it around 5 or 6 and didn't overload. I mostly tape acoustic stuff, with the occasional rock band in theatre/arenas. I can't locate a recording I did where I ran mic-in, that did overload a tad around 8,9/10- mostly the applause and full on guitar stumming parts pushed it over.

[mysticeyes]

I have pairs of 4061's and 4090's, which are about as sensitive as 4060's, and I usually run my mics through a Naiant Littlebox into an M10, or directly into a Roland R-44. I tape at nightclubs and small venues, never stadiums or arenas, and usually put mics on stage or at stage lip, and I've had no problems with either the 4061's not being sensitive enough, or with the 4090's being too sensitive. I avoided the potential pitfalls of buying 4060/4061's that may have suffered stage abuse by buying a used SMK4061 kit; my reasoning was that whoever bought the whole kit was probably a taper, or some kind of recording engineer, and would have been better motivated to take care of the gear. As it turned out, my kit was in excellent condition and it has served me well. It also cost $500, which is about what a pair of 4061's goes for without all the accessories. Those accessories are not cheap when you buy them separately; most useful for me are the XLR adapters and flush mount rubber disks. At the time, the seller had several of those kits, all for the same price.