Topic: Are match pairs really that critical

[rippleish20]

I am looking to buy some MK41V's and a matched pair takes 4-6 weeks from Germany. When I bought my Telefunkens I bought a matched pair, but, in the end, is this really very important (except for perhaps increasing resale value)? Thoughts?

[Jhurlbs81]

I don't think it's that important, especially when buying from a company with a reputation like Schoeps.    Worst case this is all fixed in post anyway when you normalize the channels. Just my opinion.

[Sebastian]

I bought a new unmatched pair of MK4 caps a few months ago and I couldn't notice a difference between the two. Especially when taping live concerts in less than ideal situations, I think other factors will have a way higher impact on your results. A matched pair might have a higher resale value, but then again you pay the difference up front.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

I bought two individual Oktava's as my first set of "real mics." One cap was about 2db less than the other. The only thing I had to do in post was raise whatever channel that mic was on 2db. I did it for every recording. After that I couldn't tell the difference.

[H₂O]

Depends on the quality of the manufacturer (i.e. quality control and acceptable variation of db off a predefined measured baseline)

But with Schoeps I have tended to have pretty good luck with both vintage (even capsules 45+ years in age) and colette series caps - where all pairs I have owned sound pretty close.   

The gotcha is resale - people will pay more for the "matched" pairs vs a pair of unmatched singles even though soniclly it may make little difference - you do get a nice cert and box to store your matched pair in though.

Also personally I would buy used caps if you can as you can save a ton of money - obviously it's not easy to find used mk41v's - mk41's are very common (probably the most common of the Colette caps) though and sound similar and can be found for $1000 a pair and less if you get lucky and creative with your purchasing strategy (i.e. buy a pair of used CMC641's and sell the CMC6's) - assuming condition isn't as important

As others have stated here before after a pair is in the field for a decent time period matching doesn't matter as the diaphragms tensions can change slightly due to changes in environment - so to only be absolutly sure a pair of used caps are matched is to send back to the manufacturer for a retest - and if they are off there is no guarantee they can match them back again. 

[rippleish20]

The company I am inclined to buy from (primarily because I can skip the sales tax) wont charge me extra for the matched pair so cost is no different, just waiting time. I generally agree with buying used but it depends on the overall savings potential - Given the importance of the microphones to the recording my inclination is to buy them new or from someone where I know the history. The biggest issue in this case is that I have not run across many used 41Vs...  The resale value is the biggest reason I see for a matched pair...

[T-90]

Wish I could get a matched pair of ears 

[MakersMarc]

I picked up 4vs that may or not be matched, they are sequentially numbered. Is there a way to check with Schoeps on history, anyone have s contact?

[Sebastian]

I picked up 4vs that may or not be matched, they are sequentially numbered. Is there a way to check with Schoeps on history, anyone have s contact?

You can e-mail Bernhard Vollmer at Schoeps. He's usually very helpful. Vollmer@schoeps.de

[MakersMarc]

Thanks!

[stevetoney]

Not important at all if you record live music in an imperfect setting.  Marginal IMO importance in a controlled studio setting.  Biggest and mostly important so you can tell the next guy you're trying to sell them to a couple years from now 'oh yeah they're matched and it's REALLY important'.

[voltronic]

The non-matched but new pair of 4061s I bought here on the YS turned out to be within 1dB of each other.  I may have been very lucky, but at 3 serial numbers apart that tells me that the better manufacturers have very good consistency and QC.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=175358.msg2169301#msg2169301

[F.O.Bean]

I have MK4's that are matched, and MK41's that are not matched, and even have different housings[nickel and nextel grey] that are way off from each other number wise, and they are just about dead even My one nickel mk41 is from the year I was born[1980] and has NEVER been to the factory for a checkup, and my nextel grey mk41 was born in 1992 and only been back to Germany once, and they are pretty damn close in output! Like Tonedeaf said, its not really that crucial because its so easy to fix in post, but that said, I do want a pair of matched MK41's lol Like others have said, the QC at a company like Schoeps is so tight, that its not necessary to have matched capsules when recording like we do in the field IMO! However, for someone OCD like me, I'm glad my caps are super close in output and my levels are usually about even

My MK4's are dead nuts even in output, but other than making me feel warm and fuzzy inside that they're matched and so close in output, its not necessary to have matched capsules since it's so easy to adjust levels in post IMO! Especially since we record in such imperfect situations a lot of the time. As always, YMMV!

[rippleish20]

All/most of you confirm my concusion that its not that critical. It looks like I have to wait 6-8 weeks for a KCY cable anyways so I will probably end up getting a matched pair anyways....

[DSatz]

Capsules vary not only in sensitivity (= output level for a given sound pressure level); they also vary in frequency response, particularly at both ends of the spectrum. You might not hear a 1 or 2 dB response deviation at 10 kHz in a mono recording--but if that same deviation occurs in just one microphone (and not the other one) of a pair that you're using for stereo, you're far more likely to hear and feel that something isn't right; our ears are much more sensitive in that situation, because our brains differentiate left vs. right amplitude and phase in an almost uncannily sensitive manner.

For people who record with X/Y or ORTF or Blumlein or other similar techniques, the more similar the two microphones are in all parameters, the better. So matched pairs are advantageous for that particular type of recording--which happens to be the kind that I think most people here do most of the time.

You can take a hint from the manufacturers of stereo microphones. The capsules are selected as matched pairs when the microphones are made, and if you damage a capsule on (say) a Neumann USM 69 and send it in for repair, the company will replace both capsules at the same time with a new, matched pair (a 15% additional fee is charged for the pair matching). If you buy a Schoeps MSTC 64 or CMXY 4V stereo microphone, you're getting a matched pair of capsules whether you like it or not; there's no option NOT to do so. AKG similarly used to pair-match the capsules in both their large-diaphragm and small-diaphragm stereo mikes. This is not just done for reasons of pride or looking good on paper; it directly affects the audible effectiveness of the microphone when used for precisely the purpose it was designed to be used for.

Most single microphones, however, are NOT sold to people who use them in coincident or closely-spaced pairs for stereo recording. Thus pair matching is unimportant to most customers. It's even considered a bad thing by some people, who feel that it reduces the chance of finding one really great (in their opinion) U 47 or C 12 that might occur in a batch. That's why most manufacturers haven't offered pair selection (which is a bit troublesome for them in a number of respects) to the general public until relatively recently--although well-connected customers have been offered it privately for at least as long as I've been in the business, or on an "if you know enough to ask for it, you can get it" basis, all of which I say from direct experience.

--A person could argue that pair selection is more important when the manufacturer is less strict about consistency to begin with; I wouldn't disagree. But then again, I wouldn't use any microphones for coincident or closely-spaced stereo setups unless they were very consistent to begin with. And it's very hard to make capsules be that consistent, even for the world's leading manufacturers. It's one of the major reasons why their microphones are expensive.

--best regards

[dactylus]

^
Thank you DSatz!

[datbrad]

I can say from personal experience that if one microphone in a pair has a different sensitivity level than the other, odds are good that the response curves are going to look different as well. It's true this will not always be clearly audible in a recording of the output from a PA system at a distance. However, it can be noticeable at the time of making the recording. Behaviors of the signal that make the recorder levels seem uneven, causing adjustment, can quickly dance from left to right. This is caused when one mic is more sensitive to certain frequencies than the other. What looks like great stereo separation can actually be surges from the variations between the mics taking a particular note that should be represented in both channels equally to be louder in one mic, which distorts the imaging. This is why matched pairs are not necessarily sequential in serial numbers. When "matching" mics into stereo pairs, mfgs are seeking two units that have the same open circuit voltage, and response curves that match as closely as possible. Users can by chance obtain two single mics of the same make/model that match closely and as long as the sensitivity matches, that's usually going to be fine for PA taping, imo.

[John Willett]

I can say from personal experience that if one microphone in a pair has a different sensitivity level than the other, odds are good that the response curves are going to look different as well. It's true this will not always be clearly audible in a recording of the output from a PA system at a distance. However, it can be noticeable at the time of making the recording. Behaviors of the signal that make the recorder levels seem uneven, causing adjustment, can quickly dance from left to right. This is caused when one mic is more sensitive to certain frequencies than the other. What looks like great stereo separation can actually be surges from the variations between the mics taking a particular note that should be represented in both channels equally to be louder in one mic, which distorts the imaging. This is why matched pairs are not necessarily sequential in serial numbers. When "matching" mics into stereo pairs, mfgs are seeking two units that have the same open circuit voltage, and response curves that match as closely as possible. Users can by chance obtain two single mics of the same make/model that match closely and as long as the sensitivity matches, that's usually going to be fine for PA taping, imo.

With some manufacturers, microphones will have serial numbers that are quite a way from each other - this is because the mics are matched after production.

Neumann matched pairs normally have sequential numbers because the serial numbers are put on the microphones *after* they are matched.

Sennheiser MKH 20/30/40 series are manufactured to a very high tolerance that they don't need matching.  However, the MKH 8000 series have glued capsules to get the same 16mm diameter diaphragm into a 19mm diameter housing - these are more difficult to manufacture and do need to be matched.

Microtech Gefell do not charge extra for matching, providing the two microphones are ordered at the same time and pair-matching is requested at the time of order.

But all these are high quality manufacturers and you are likely to find that random samples of Schoeps mics are better matched than a matched pair of inexpensive Far East microphones.

[DSatz]

The threshold of perception for differences between microphones, when you're using just a pair of them for stereo recording, is much, much lower than it is in the most common studio application--close or moderately close multiple miking of multiple sound sources, where the output of many microphones will ultimately be mixed into a single stereo channel of the final result.

Whenever any microphone manufacturer can guarantee that all its products are within a total of about 1/4 dB in the midrange, and about 1/2 dB at the top and bottom, then I will agree that there's no further point in pair-matching that company's microphones. Since I don't expect to see that happen during my lifetime, I will gladly pay a little extra for pair-matching for any microphones that I'm going to use as coincident or closely-spaced stereo pairs. (Or if it's offered for free, I'll take that, too.)

--best regards

[voltronic]

Whenever any microphone manufacturer can guarantee that all its products are within a total of about 1/4 dB in the midrange, and about 1/2 dB at the top and bottom, then I will agree that there's no further point in pair-matching that company's microphones.

This may be slightly off-topic, but there should be an international standard of some sort for what constitutes a "matched pair".  Even among the top-quality brands, I'm sure they all have different internal standards for this, and a matched set from one manufacturer may be a completely unacceptable variance to another.  This probably goes hand in hand with the overall tightness of manufacturing tolerances and QC.

I think the numbers suggested above would certainly be a good goal to shoot for, but some of the big names might have trouble meeting that level of consistency (while others will meet that level without breaking a sweat).