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Author Topic: Front of stage mic height?  (Read 2872 times)

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Offline thatjackelliott

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Front of stage mic height?
« on: August 11, 2017, 10:42:20 AM »
Despite having been a professional musician (electric bass) for a decade in an earlier life, I have no idea what the stage sounds like at anything other than ear level. I do know that guitarists would play a lot softer if their amps were at head-level instead of firing at the backs of their knees. But anyway. Grousing about guitarists will have to wait for another time.

So at an upcoming music festival I'll be setting a mic stand right in front of the stage for radio broadcast. They'll be on a sturdly lighting stand set on the lawn in front of the stage and I can raise them to stage floor level or above. I'll use an M-S setup with an omni Mid mic and a Figure-8 for the Side mic. I'll be mixing in the feed from the sound board on top of the Mid signal for clarity and to pick up things, like voices, that the mics are unlikely to hear. I'll do mixing for broadcast live.

My question pertains to how high above the floor level of the stage I'll want to raise the mics. The higher above stage floor level, the more they will be visually obtrusive to the band and the audience, esp. if I have to strap on an umbrella if rain threatens.

So I'd like to keep them as low as possible. But floor-bounce comb filtering and suchlike. Do we have any tapers here with experience placing front-of-stage* mics at or above stage floor level here who can offer some advice?

* Is "front-of-stage" abbreviated to FOS here? Y'alls have developed your own shorthand.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 11:04:57 AM »
I would listen on headphones while raising the stand to choose the height.  Higher up should record less crowd noise. 

Wonder if you would benefit from having your station info displayed on the stand so maybe folks would be more respectful of not bumping it?



Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 12:02:45 PM »
OR- seriously- how about an "On the air" poster? Also on the height issue, most onstage stands are about 18-24 inches at mic level. This is not my avenue of expertise, so hopefully more will chime in.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 01:21:44 PM »
I wouldn't have the mics any lower than head height.  Without seeing the PA configuration or knowing how high the stage amps and PA are, it is near impossible to determine the best height for your mics in this situation.  The lowest I would want to go, given the option, is 8 feet...but higher would be better depending on the factors mentioned above.
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Offline heathen

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 01:30:48 PM »
Could you hang/clamp the mics from the lighting stand (assuming it is not just at ground level)?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 02:17:07 PM »
Mics at the front of the stage are generally referred to as "stage-lip" around here.  That's typically done using a stand just in front of the stage and often right up against it, or a short stand on the stage itself near the front edge "stage-lip"

I've done this a lot.  You can arrange the mics very low so they are right or only a few inches above stage level without problems, or you can go higher.  Best option is usually determined by the situation.

There are actually some advantages to having the mics right at or close to stage level-
Very low visibility
No floor bounce reflection
Extended "reach" and clarity of on stage sources (the direct sound sort of hugs the floor in a boundary-layer way)

Issues to be aware of-
Guitar amps- very directional sources, which also follow the "reach" thing mentioned above to an extreme.  Try to stay off axis to the guitar amp cabinets unless they are far back on stage and need the help.
Protection from audience members if there is not a rail in front of the stage, photographers if there is, stage-hands either way.
Clear view around or over stage monitors, and not too much direct sound from them.
Subwoofers- can be very boomy up there, especially if the subs are under the stage.  Height can somewhat reduce the intensity, but you'll probably want to use the low pass filter we discussed previously on the omni Mid for what you are doing regardless.

Going higher may be a suitable work around for some of those issues.

At stage-lip I usually don't worry about being in line with the kick drum as it's typically far enough back.  I do if on stage and closer to the drums where I like it partly off axis and shift slightly to the snare drum side.  I generally try to get a good clear line of sight to the snare drum and any other acoustic sources which benefit especially from having some of their sound clearly recorded with the on-stage or stage-lip mics.
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 04:24:55 PM »
I end to like the direct vibe that comes with keeping them toward the low side.  As GB says it is best to assess all the direct sources of sound and see what sort of on-axis/off-axis/lines of sight are summing at the point you choose.  In a festival setting where bands are swapping out that is more difficult to estimate.  I'd disagree with going high for GB's reasons and since I think it is general courtesy not to obstruct the sight lines of the patrons.   
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Offline thatjackelliott

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 10:05:35 AM »
Nah, I don't have neither the permission, the agility, the rigging background, nor the equipment needed to hang my mics from the overhead.

"First do no harm." I'm going to have to give priority to the performers and the audience and not block their sightlines. Two mics stacked vertically on a light stand in Mid-Side configuration, with dead rats on them aren't terribly obtrusive, but if weather threatens and I have to strap on an umbrella, then that would be uncool IMO. Our broadcast is a side show, the main act is the artist/audience relationship. So I'll keep the setup low at stage lip.

In the low end, this event doesn't have giant subs on the ground below stage lip like the 4 Peaks Music festival we broadcast in June. These smaller events use smallish sound systems and the subs are part of the PA stack that flanks the stage. So with the 500Hz first-order low-cut filters that I built into the Mid mic phantom power supply (thanks for suggestion GB) should be okay. It says here.

Floor bound-induced comb filtering should be at a minimum and pushed up higher in the bandwidth with the mics down low like that. There's nothing I can do if any of the instruments sound weird or shoot "over the head" of the mics when they are down there, but I will be supplementing the sound with the direct feed from the board.

It's all "make it up as you go" with these festivals. No telling from year to year how the stages will be set up, how much latency the sound boards will have, whether the sound guy has ears or not (some of them are brilliant and coax a great sound from the stage, others seem to have been deafened for years and need to have their attention drawn to feedback, or inaudible instruments, or muddy sound). We have little to no control over any of it. It's my job to overcome problems and make it all work.

That said, when you get down to it, it's about the music and there's even greater variability with the acts. The next festival, Bend Roots Revival, at end of September (date, time, live stream details in my earlier post about using a shotgun mic as the Mid mid in a M-S setup) is all local bands, some good enough to get paid to perform, some absolutely rank beginners, and some you'd like to pay to stop performing -- thankfully no Scream Metal! -- and they are all part of our community. Bend is a hotbed of musical talent with lots of venues and opportunities for young musicians to get started in their careers. I view it as sort of a musical incubator.

I totally love the suggestion that I hang "ON THE AIR" signs on the mic stands (plural: two stages, one stand per stage). Something like http://tinyurl.com/yau7jl44 should work. (Are tiny urls okay here? it points to a $7 plastic sign on Amazon).

Thanks for all the help, guys.

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2017, 11:26:20 AM »

Above and pointed down towards the musicians is better than down low by the stage floor. If you are not comfortable clamping to a lighting truss or don't have the gear to do it then obviously that's out. If it was me I would go buy a Superclamp, extension arm and a safety cable and do it that way. Maybe ask one of the rigging crew to set it for you?

 I've done it a bunch. It's not real complicated and it keeps your stuff out of the way of sightlines. You just need enough cabling to get to your recorder/mixer/laptop whatever.


At a minimum get your mics over the height of the monitors. I usually shoot for level with the top of the kick drum and angle a little upwards. Use tent stakes to secure the legs of the stand to the ground.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2017, 11:44:32 AM »
Thos On Air signs are perfect! I'm going to grab one or two for open taping situations-just to fuck with people!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2017, 12:14:09 PM »
Cool idea.  But asses the audience, it may attract shout outs and direct-at-mics yelling!  Maybe mount the signs somewhere other than on the microphone stand.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2017, 01:15:07 PM »
Cool idea.  But asses the audience, it may attract shout outs and direct-at-mics yelling!  Maybe mount the signs somewhere other than on the microphone stand.
jeeez; how probably true! people!  :smash:
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Offline thatjackelliott

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2017, 10:35:28 AM »
Well, for old radio days drama, I should flank each stage with a pair of tall light stands each bearing a red 300-watt incandescent bulb atop it. Hang large "ON AIR" signs under the bulbs, and light the bulbs remotely from our broadcast booth whenever we switch focus to that stage.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 10:49:01 AM by thatjackelliott »

Offline thatjackelliott

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2017, 11:10:05 AM »

Above and pointed down towards the musicians is better than down low by the stage floor. If you are not comfortable clamping to a lighting truss or don't have the gear to do it then obviously that's out. If it was me I would go buy a Superclamp, extension arm and a safety cable and do it that way. Maybe ask one of the rigging crew to set it for you?

I have zero memory of how they constructed those stages last years. Do they have trusses above the front of the stage for lights, banner hangage, and other functions? I honestly don't recall. Assuming they do put up such trusses then I'd need to bring whatever bits needed to assure that I could hang my mics from pretty much whatever truss I encounter. Clamps, safety cable and whatever else is needed to do a sturdy and safe install.

My Mid-Side mic pair mounts to a single vertical pole, one above the other using clamps, one mic above the other, kind of like this: http://www.taconic.net/~fkennedy/stereo-bar-ms-1.jpg

so I need some way to drop a single vertical pole about a foot long from an unknown truss thingy.

Oh, rain in is not all that rare in Oregon's High Desert. Let's also consider that I might want mount umbrellas above the mics. I'm thinking photog's lighting umbrellas with simple rod shafts.

Perhaps the community here could put together a gear shopping list?


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2017, 09:53:36 AM »
Well, for old radio days drama, I should flank each stage with a pair of tall light stands each bearing a red 300-watt incandescent bulb atop it. Hang large "ON AIR" signs under the bulbs, and light the bulbs remotely from our broadcast booth whenever we switch focus to that stage.

[thumbs up]!
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Offline aaronji

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2017, 12:45:01 PM »
But asses the audience, it may attract shout outs and direct-at-mics yelling!

Best typo ever?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2017, 01:12:10 PM »
Freudian typo!  Ha!

It's the element of truth..
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2017, 05:50:11 PM »
There needs to be a talkerssection.    :tomato:

Offline nak700s

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2017, 06:01:56 PM »
There needs to be a talkerssection.    :tomato:

There is, it's outside, but they don't care about anyone other than themselves.  :banging head:
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Offline if_then_else

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2017, 12:57:25 AM »
so I need some way to drop a single vertical pole about a foot long from an unknown truss thingy.

Perhaps the community here could put together a gear shopping list?

Although a Manfrotto Superclamp and one of their "Magic Arms" might work, I'd recommend a Cardellini / Matthellini clamp with their Extendellini extension which will allow you to clamp to wider features (the actual stage-lip, trusses or poles). Get a Manfrotto MA026 sviwel umbrella adapter, too. Don't skimp on a good safety cable (https://m.thomann.de/gb/major_saveking_4mm_10m_40kg_silver.htm?o=27&search=1498017347).
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 01:19:19 AM by if_then_else »

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2017, 02:09:01 AM »
Further to Gutbucket’s suggestion about going low on the stage, you might try putting a split pair of Crown directional boundary mics (“PCC”) on the stage lip.  No visual impact (well you might have to tape off the red LED) and sometimes can give a pretty clean recording of what’s happening on stage.  Just a thought.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2017, 09:33:12 AM »
Yes, Crown PCC and other makes of directional boundary layer mics such as AT, Shure, etc, work the same way as standard directional mics used close to the stage.   The primary difference is that they are built specifically for that task with tough, low-profile, rubber-footed housings, strong enough to be accidentally trampled upon.  Resting directly on the floor, they can sometimes pick up somewhat more structure-born vibes from heavy footstomps or whatever, but usually have pretty heavy steel housings to help damp that primarily through the mass holding the mic firm against the floor rather than isolating via an elastic suspension.
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Offline thatjackelliott

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2017, 10:17:58 AM »
On the matter of floor-borne vibrations (footfalls, enthusiastic guitar player leaping about, etc.) I'd like to hear from anyone who has tried these mics on a festival stage -- such stages are erected at the site and have floors that are essentially sheets of plywood laid atop crossbeams with little or no damping. I'd be very surprised if they don't pick up a lot of unwanted noise.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2017, 11:37:31 AM »
Directional boundary mics are commonly used for theatrical productions where its otherwise hard to mic the action in an unobtrusive way without wireless mics on everyone, but I wouldn't be surprised if the mics are high-passed for those applications as their main intent is dialog.  I recall a sound tech friend commenting on how loud tap-dancing pickup can be, and having to accommodate for that in the PA mix.

I have a single AT cardioid boundary mic (basically the same as a Crown PCC), but I've not actually used that mic for on-the-stage music taping.  I've mostly used DPA miniature omnis 4060/4061 in the DPA hard-rubber boundary mounts taped down onto the stage - typically indoor suspended wooden stages constructed from 2x4 or 2x6 lumber rather than plywood over aluminum or steel scaffolding type temporary festival stages - and haven't experienced problems with structure-born noise pickup doing that, but that type of stage construction is a bit sturdier, and those mics are omnis so they are somewhat less susceptible to handling and structure-born noise to begin with.  Music I've done that way ranged from acoustic jazz and string music to small group electric stuff - nothing with massive subwoofer content.

Never did that for a festival and wouldn't trust the rubber DPA mounts and thin lav wiring to sufficiently protect the mics and cables for something like a festival with lots of band changes where I wasn't able to watch the mics the whole time.  But I would consider using the AT or some other more-armored boundary mics in that scenario.  May be a good idea to put something like a sheet of compliant rubber padding under the mic and gaff tape the mic, it's pad and the cable all down securely to the stage surface.  The combination of the relatively heavy steel mic construction and compliant rubber pad makes for a sprung/mass/constrained-layer combination which is the basis upon which all vibration isolation works, including traditional mic shock mounts, car suspensions, washing machine internals, industrial machines..

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Offline Moke

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2017, 11:46:34 AM »

Pretty much any stage is built of plywood over some form of framing. In fact, the finest concert halls in the world have stages that can be broken down, configs changed, raised, lowered in sections or in whole.
I record a whole buch of acoustic music on concert hall stages.  They're quite typically built with squared dimensions throughout the areas behind the stage curtain, with exception to the last 8 to 10 feet, the stage-lip edge, where they often curve outwardly.  That curved outer portion of a concert stage is often times completely removed, to create a proper sunken orchestra pit in front of the stage.
In a concert hall, there are a whole bunch of facilities below the stages.
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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2017, 12:01:56 PM »
I carry a set of three Sorbothane cups/pucks in my bag, and I use them all the time in different ways.
Last week, I set my binaural head on the stage edge. This was an aluminum frame covered in masonite hardboard stage, folding stage, 4 pieces, much like folding tables, that created a stage that was probably 8' deep x 12' wide.  I put the head on its storage/torso box onto the stage on a trio of the sorbothane cups as shock mounting.
I use these cups for mic stand feet, when floor mounting in carpeted halls; a huge amount of noise can come from tightly tensioned carpet.

last week, front of stage height,... a cheap folding aluminum frame hardboard skinned folding stage...
binaural, 35cm@90º, DPA4060 spread 60cm at stage lip
the binaural head torso box is mounted onto a triangularly arranged sorbothane cups.
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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2017, 01:29:41 PM »
Stage mount PZM,..
In the image, you can see a stage mounted PZM at the edge. There were two, one on either side of the stage. They were part of the videographers rig.
I was at this concert 2 hours early, and got set up in a small alcove that lead to the stage. That is my cable set running to the stage wings.
At any rate, I sat there and watched the near misses of people that just weren't paying attention to where they were stepping.  The musicians were the issue. They'd come to the stage edge, and talk to friends, other musicians, whoever, and they were oblivious to that PZM there. It made for some mild entertainment, wondering which shoe heel was going to kill the mic,.... while the clocked ticked towards the baton drop.
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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2017, 01:32:52 PM »
And to my comment of the stage configurations in auditoriums, concert halls. This image illustrates a point that I was making,...
That wooden edge is the demarcation between the main stage and the outer lip. It can be lowered so that there is an orchestra pit in front of the stage.
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Offline nak700s

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2017, 01:51:33 PM »
^^^ I would have been the guy with the mics on the stand right behind yours
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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2017, 02:27:35 PM »
TJE—I have only used the Crown boundary mics on an indoor stage (looked pretty permanent) and don’t know how they’d perform outdoors on a temporary stage.  Wind protection might be a challenge, maybe you could cover them with furry plastic colander bowls...     Moke—what is that binaural head made from — is it heavy/dense or light material?  (Sorry if I’m veering off topic). That looks really interesting.

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2017, 03:50:44 PM »
TJE—I have only used the Crown boundary mics on an indoor stage (looked pretty permanent) and don’t know how they’d perform outdoors on a temporary stage.  Wind protection might be a challenge, maybe you could cover them with furry plastic colander bowls...     Moke—what is that binaural head made from — is it heavy/dense or light material?  (Sorry if I’m veering off topic). That looks really interesting.

It is a Sennheiser MKE2002 Artificial Head Binaural Stereo Microphone Kit.
long enough name? yep, that its proper name.

It is a hard plastic, now. It was a bit softer back when I got it 30 yeas ago.  But time marches on, and plastics harden. It is foam filled, with some sort of expandable foam.
Its ears are well detailed like a humans ears.  A pair of DPA4060 fit into the ear canals well, and I've used it that way a few times.  The rigging shown in that image is with the Senn matching mics. The Senn mics are joined together with a stethoscopic-like bridge, and it is held into the ears by little ball ends at the mic cap. There is a chin clip to fix and hold the proper mic angle in relation to the ears.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 09:01:22 PM by Moke »
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Offline thatjackelliott

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2017, 05:19:03 PM »
Gutbucket wrote (in part), "I recall a sound tech friend commenting on how loud tap-dancing pickup can be, and having to accommodate for that in the PA mix."

Tap dancing?!? Oy. People will watch anything.

Any discerning sound tech should at that point throw down his headphones and march toward the exit while proclaiming loudly, "I can't work under these conditions!"

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2017, 07:15:45 PM »
Ha.  There's a slight contagion of tap dancers horning in on jazz shows.  I think the only time I actually attended such a mash-up they did keep the tappers in different pieces from the musicians...  but there are some who will dance with the band if no one puts the hook out there to pull them offstage. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
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Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2017, 07:44:43 PM »
TJE—I have only used the Crown boundary mics on an indoor stage (looked pretty permanent) and don’t know how they’d perform outdoors on a temporary stage.  Wind protection might be a challenge, maybe you could cover them with furry plastic colander bowls...     Moke—what is that binaural head made from — is it heavy/dense or light material?  (Sorry if I’m veering off topic). That looks really interesting.

It is a Sennheiser MKE2002 Aritificial Head Binaural Stereo Microphone Kit.
long enough name? yep, that its proper name.

It is a hard plastic, now. It was a bit softer back when I got it 30 yeas ago.  But time marches on, and plastics harden. It is foam filled, with some sort of expandable foam.
Its ears are well detailed like a humans ears.  A pair of DPA4060 fit into the ear canals well, and I've used it that way a few times.  The rigging shown in that image is with the Senn matching mics. The Senn mics are joined together with a stethoscopic-like bridge, and it is held into the ears by little ball ends at the mic cap. There is a chin clip to fix and hold the proper mic angle in relation to the ears.

I wish I had something similar to use with my schoeps mk3....
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v, mk4v, mk22, mk3 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2017, 09:02:17 PM »
What's that, Noah?
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2017, 09:33:41 PM »
What's that, Noah?

a dummy head, without microphones. So I can use mine!
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v, mk4v, mk22, mk3 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2017, 10:31:51 PM »
Ha.  There's a slight contagion of tap dancers horning in on jazz shows.  I think the only time I actually attended such a mash-up they did keep the tappers in different pieces from the musicians...  but there are some who will dance with the band if no one puts the hook out there to pull them offstage.

I just saw Savigon Glover and Marcus Gilmore perform as a duo a few weeks ago. It's not something I would ever listen to at home so I left the gear at home but it was visually interesting.

http://www.dakotacooks.com/event/savion-glover-marcus-gilmore/
Mics: Schoeps MK5, Schoeps MK41, AT853u (C,SC,H)
Preamps/converters: Schoeps VMS52UB (x2), Nbox (x2), E.A.A. PSP-2 (x2) Grace Lunatec V2 (for sale), Sound Devices MP-2 (for sale), DPA MMA6000, Naiant Tinybox v1.5, Apogee Mini-Me, Benchmark AD2k+
Recorders: Tascam DR-680, Korg MR-1, Edirol R-05, Sony PCM-M10 (x2), Tascam DR-07

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2017, 11:28:01 PM »
What's that, Noah?

a dummy head, without microphones. So I can use mine!

There is a company thta is pouring custom ears shaped from real ear contours. They could be applied to any number of different base substrate.
I'm winging it here. I'll find a link and post it.

well, that was quick and easy: http://binauralenthusiast.com/product/silicone-ears-grey/
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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2017, 12:40:04 AM »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v, mk4v, mk22, mk3 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline thatjackelliott

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2017, 01:11:00 AM »
Now you had to go and hijack this thread to start talking about dummy heads, and it was a perfectly fine off-topic gripe about the alarming increase in the popularity of tap dancing.  ;)

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Mics- AKG 460's ck 61's/63's/ck8's, akg active  couplings>naiant pfa's, naiant x-r's (cards,omnis). Pre- SD-302, naiant x-y amp, apogee mini-me X2, Lunatech V-3, Decks- R-44, dr-40,dr-100mkiii,  dr-03.....

ISO- pair of ADK a51 tl's

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2017, 03:23:31 AM »
Now you had to go and hijack this thread to start talking about dummy heads, and it was a perfectly fine off-topic gripe about the alarming increase in the popularity of tap dancing.  ;)

OK,... I can just as easily get us back onto being off-track.

Scottish folk music.
Quaint, frolicking, whimsical folk music you say?

The next night, I also recorded my longtime target for mics in this same hall,... and i pointed out something to them, and they wondered,... how did this nice hardwood stage get so damaged?

Quaint, frolicking, whimsical folk music,... and then they brought out the dance troupe.
Ahh geeez, and holy crap, someone broke out the Howitzer Cannon!  Those Scottish dancin' shoes were like hammers, and there were dozens of them in this fairly small space, and i was set with my levels for quaint, frolicking,....
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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2017, 01:29:51 PM »
Heh.  Dig the Frankensteinien ear-bolt/screws on that binaural head.  They ought to sell self-adhesive faux versions as fashion accessories for their human binaural enthusiasts.  Nothing screams binaural recording geek like faux bolt-in ears.   And that cranium-top camera gimble has potential practical applications.  Imagining it in combination with the original Super-Glue TV ad that had the guy dangling from his hardhat adhered to the I-beam.

Up in Western North Carolina its common to find cloggers joining in on the old-time Appalachian gigs.  Often a sheet of plywood is laid out as a surface for it, sometimes mic'd.  There's a monthly hoe-down and "Cake Dance" in a tiny town near my folks place with loads of local color.  One of the old-as-the-hills former regular dancers can now barely walk much less jig dance, and sits in a folding chair off to the side bouncing a little stick puppet around on block of wood he straps to his knee with an big-rubber band cut from an old tire inner-tube.  Last time I was there he was featured on one tune and someone hand held a SM57 to amp the puppet tapping.

It's a buck dancers choice my friend..
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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2017, 02:11:52 PM »
The head,...
If you go this route, get ready to answer any number of questions regarding, what the heck is that?
Get ready for musicians to look at it, and, not be at ease.
Case in point; last thursday,  when I mounted the head, the guitarist looked at it, and went from yeah, go for it, to, 8-|
I said that I can dress him down really quickly, and threw on my sunglasses, and, a hat that I just got from another violin ensemble. He looked at it again, 8-).
It seemed that he never gave it second thought beynd that.
This transformation in turning it from cyborg-thing to more humanistic, and putting the artist at ease, has played out numerous times over the years. With this in mind, I've been making a couple of purchases of items for him as adornment, and they range from *uber-postnuclear-modern_cyborg-steampunk, to, *steampunk light (subtle). (*not the corny Johnny Depp'esque cartoonish steampunk)
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2017, 02:38:01 PM »
^ Funny but I get it.  It looks like it can be a little creepy when unadorned.  Perfect for Halloween... 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline acidjack

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2017, 03:00:43 PM »
When I "onstage" or "stage lip" I try to get the mics 1-2ft above the height of the front monitor wedges. Or conveniently about the height of those knee-facing guitar amps, and about the midpoint height of the drum kit. Not sure how much science there is to that, but it has worked for me.  And well below a height that will be wacky for the performer.

If you're actually in the crowd, then yeah, you want to be at least head height, "head" meaning wherever most heads are (e.g., if everyone is seated, then at or just above where those heads are)
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2017, 04:38:20 PM »
To me the optimal accouterment for costuming a binaural head for Moke's gigs would be a Beethoven wig (sans wig powder which may clog the mics).  Come to think of it a head in the form of a Beethoven bust ala the style sitting atop Schroeder's toy Peanuts piano would seem most apropos.

Just not sure if that would set the musicians more at ease or put the fear of Ludwig in them!   Likely dependent on how classical their persuasion.

Swap out for an early 70's Herbie-style 2' diameter 'fro for wind-prone funk/fusion gigs.
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Offline heathen

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2017, 05:13:59 PM »
The same rules that apply to human hairstyles apply to binaural head hairstyles.  Thus there can be only one correct choice: the mullet.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | Countryman B3s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2017, 06:45:25 PM »
For certain musical styles it's the obvious choice!

How'bout rigid starched Mohawk doubling as Schneider disc for punk?





Credit to Core Sound for the Scheider disc image.
Random google image search for the hair- concern about credit ain't punk.
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Offline thatjackelliott

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2017, 07:04:22 PM »
But how about Metal? Could a dummy head be screwed onto a mechanical device that will move it about in a headbanging motion?  :guitarist:

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2017, 08:50:38 PM »
if you're going to clutter the end of the center aisle, you might as well make it colorful.

first pic,... that is actually the edge of the stage, it just doesn't look like one.
last pic: Gude has spaced omnis as shoulders.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 08:55:58 PM by Moke »
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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2017, 12:41:15 PM »
OK,... I mentioned Gude might be leaning towards a cyborg-steampunk look.
Decisions decisions,... which hat pin style looks better? The dashing over the ear right ear style, or, the left ear surrounding uber-cyborg aural amplitudificator?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 05:37:27 PM by Moke »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2017, 12:53:54 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Left ear      ;D
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Offline nak700s

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2017, 01:05:06 PM »
TJE—I have only used the Crown boundary mics on an indoor stage (looked pretty permanent) and don’t know how they’d perform outdoors on a temporary stage.  Wind protection might be a challenge, maybe you could cover them with furry plastic colander bowls...     Moke—what is that binaural head made from — is it heavy/dense or light material?  (Sorry if I’m veering off topic). That looks really interesting.

It is a Sennheiser MKE2002 Aritificial Head Binaural Stereo Microphone Kit.
long enough name? yep, that its proper name.

It is a hard plastic, now. It was a bit softer back when I got it 30 yeas ago.  But time marches on, and plastics harden. It is foam filled, with some sort of expandable foam.
Its ears are well detailed like a humans ears.  A pair of DPA4060 fit into the ear canals well, and I've used it that way a few times.  The rigging shown in that image is with the Senn matching mics. The Senn mics are joined together with a stethoscopic-like bridge, and it is held into the ears by little ball ends at the mic cap. There is a chin clip to fix and hold the proper mic angle in relation to the ears.

I wish I had something similar to use with my schoeps mk3....

I've seen people using Styrofoam heads for this as well.

https://www.dickblick.com/products/floracraft-foam-heads/?clickTracking=true&wmcp=pla&wmcid=items&wmckw=03166-6910&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzZDFuuKO1wIVDjBpCh3XMQ9NEAQYASABEgJFnvD_BwE#photos
Normal: Nakamichi CM-700's >> SD 744T (or) Sony PCM-M10
Normal: Crown CM-700's >> SD 302 >> SD 744T
Stealth: CA-14c >> CA 9200 >> Edirol R-09HR
Ultra stealth: AudioReality >> AudioReality battery box >> Edirol R-09HR
Simple & Sweet!

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Re: Front of stage mic height?
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2017, 01:23:11 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Left ear      ;D

Its surprising to see how well a DVD burner/swimming pool timer clock mechanism hybrid fits over the ear of a Senn head, ain't it? Its like a custsom fit.
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