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Author Topic: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls  (Read 3470 times)

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Offline MBHOTAPER

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Looking for a small stealth deck with left right balance controls for external mics. Sony pcm-10 would have been perfect for naiant ipa but does not have balance control.
Which do you prefer for stealth: dr-40, dr-05, r-05, m audio track or other I'm not considering.
Looking for small size, balance control, decent pres, visable/good screen size, secure inputs.
I will run it with my mbho ka200n > naiant ipa > stealth deck.
Getting ready for McLaughlin and Herring in nov
Thanks
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 03:20:18 AM by MBHOTAPER »

Offline adrianb

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Re: ISO Small deck like pcm-10 but with balnce controls
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2017, 02:50:05 AM »
Is the PCM-D100 too big for you? I've managed to stealth with it in my jeans pocket, with the advantage that it provides 5v PIP which has been enough to ditch the battery box or pre-amp.

Offline MBHOTAPER

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Re: ISO Small deck like pcm-10 but with balnce controls
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2017, 03:41:36 AM »
Is the PCM-D100 too big for you? I've managed to stealth with it in my jeans pocket, with the advantage that it provides 5v PIP which has been enough to ditch the battery box or pre-amp.
Pcm-d100 runs around $800. I am looking to spend <$400 since I rarely stealth.
I occasionally used my ocm pmd661 as an all in one box but wanding is so prevalent now days I need something smaller for low pro stealth.

Offline heathen

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Looking for a small stealth deck with left right balance controls for external mics. Sony pcm-10 would have been perfect for naiant ipa but does not have balance control.
Which do you prefer for stealth: dr-40, dr-05, r-05, m audio track or other I'm not considering.

I don't think the R-05 has balance control.  I'd love to be wrong about that though.
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Offline gewwang

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Tascam has a toggle for Left/Both/Right channel and then one input level knob. It works great and additionally has XLR-ins which I prefer in all taping situations. But given the choice, I'd rather stealth the mixpre than the tascam due to the superior preamps.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 11:31:10 AM by gewwang »

Offline yug du nord

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Re: ISO Small deck like pcm-10 but with balnce controls
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 11:45:59 AM »
Is the PCM-D100 too big for you? I've managed to stealth with it in my jeans pocket, with the advantage that it provides 5v PIP which has been enough to ditch the battery box or pre-amp.

curious..  with what type of mikes?
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

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Run the M10 and even out the channels in post
Mics: ADK A51s; AT4041; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
Recorders: M10; DR-60D; DR-70D

Offline adrianb

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Re: ISO Small deck like pcm-10 but with balnce controls
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2017, 04:09:33 PM »
curious..  with what type of mikes?

For stealth a variety of Church Audio mics, mainly the CAFS, but also AT853. I know Chris Church always maintains his mics require 9v, but I've always had good results using the PIP from the D100 even in loud shows.

I picked up my second unit secondhand for £315 ($400)

« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 04:11:48 PM by adrianb »

Offline nulldogmas

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Run the M10 and even out the channels in post

Yeah, any reason you don't want to do that?

Offline jb63

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The Marantz PMD 620 has the least amount of metal of any small deck besides the Korg MR-1.
The 620 gets about 4 hours on a good set of batteries, the MR-1 needs you to have an external battery pack (4 AAs or a small phone charging battery.)

The 620 will power sonic studios mics so probably also church mics. That's about as light as I can imagine.
I think punkjazz used to use the Sony M10 to power DPA 4061 mics, which sound better with 48v, but will still work with whatever the M10 was outputting.

I haven't been wanted in years and I haven't had the metal detectors yet.
What will they let you bring in? Batteries? Phone accessories?
this is definitely not normal

Offline MBHOTAPER

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The Marantz PMD 620 has the least amount of metal of any small deck besides the Korg MR-1.
The 620 gets about 4 hours on a good set of batteries, the MR-1 needs you to have an external battery pack (4 AAs or a small phone charging battery.)

The 620 will power sonic studios mics so probably also church mics. That's about as light as I can imagine.
I think punkjazz used to use the Sony M10 to power DPA 4061 mics, which sound better with 48v, but will still work with whatever the M10 was outputting.

I haven't been wanted in years and I haven't had the metal detectors yet.
What will they let you bring in? Batteries? Phone accessories?
They allow cells but just caps, ipa and a small deck has a decent chance with a lazy guard.
Pmd620 looks sweet but no information on left and right balance control online? My pmd661 has a gain knob with adjustable left and right wheel controls. The pmd620 has a single record button but it might have settings to adjust both channels separately but there's nothing online to confirm it. Anyone have experience with one?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 01:00:08 AM by MBHOTAPER »

Offline beatkilla

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For a small stealth deck nothing beats the Sony PCM-M10(has no independent channel control),M10 battery life is unbeatable.

Only deck i've used that had L/R control was the Sony PCM D100,easily available,pricey,and a little big.

Offline yug du nord

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PMD620 mkII does not have individual channel gain. 
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline jb63

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Look at the specs of the Marantz PMD561 and PMD661 MKIII

are those too big for you?
this is definitely not normal

Online jcable77

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The dr-40 can control left/right input individually, lasts a ridiculously long time on aa's and consists mostly of plastic, yet is still real durable.
Mics- AKG 460's ck 61's/63's/ck8's, akg active  couplings>naiant pfa's, naiant x-r's (cards,omnis). Pre- SD-302, naiant x-y amp, apogee mini-me X2, Lunatech V-3, Decks- R-44, dr-40,dr-100mkiii,  dr-03.....

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Offline ArchivalAudio

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(smart ass answer)
m-10
balance in post.
any deck
balance in post...
~ Archival Audio ~
Archiving Worthy Music
since 1986 & digitally since 1995

https://www.facebook.com/ArchivalAudio/

Main Mics: Milab VM-44 Links • Milab DC-196's (Matched  Pair)  •  Busman BSC2 BusBox (K21-O, K41-SC, K11-C)  • Line Audio CM3's
PreAmps:  SD USB-Pre2  • Naiant LittleBox • Naiant [Milab VM44] TinyBox (no bodies) • Naiant PIPsqueak
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Offline phil_er_up

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Had same problem with tinybox. You can not set individual L/R levels with tinybox. So now I use my littlebox for the L/R correction to make mics even. So I went a different route by using he pre-amp to control it not the recorder. If you post process it is easy to fix there...
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Offline Gutbucket

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(smart ass answer)
m-10
balance in post.
any deck
balance in post...

Agreed. 

AFAIK, the R-05 has a hidden menu that provides balance control, just like the R-09 did.  Check the TS thread on accessing it's hidden Easter-egg menu.  IMO doing so would only be useful if you are always using the same mics with an channel imbalance and wanted to avoid having to re-balance for that every time in post.
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Offline beatkilla

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Get an M10 and a church ugly 2 which has L R control.

Offline MBHOTAPER

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2017, 02:36:55 AM »
Get an M10 and a church ugly 2 which has L R control.
It doesn't have 48v phantom power for my mbho caps.

Offline ArchivalAudio

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2017, 02:59:35 AM »
Had same problem with tinybox. You can not set individual L/R levels with tinybox. So now I use my littlebox for the L/R correction to make mics even. So I went a different route by using he pre-amp to control it not the recorder. If you post process it is easy to fix there...
my tinybox for my Milab VM44's does have a balance control, via a tiny Phillips screw accessed thru the cover of the case ( I ordered it that way and it was an option). I have set it and for the most part left it. some times I do adjust it but never while sealxth...

I adjust in post if needed.
~ Archival Audio ~
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Main Mics: Milab VM-44 Links • Milab DC-196's (Matched  Pair)  •  Busman BSC2 BusBox (K21-O, K41-SC, K11-C)  • Line Audio CM3's
PreAmps:  SD USB-Pre2  • Naiant LittleBox • Naiant [Milab VM44] TinyBox (no bodies) • Naiant PIPsqueak
Recorders: Zoom F8 • Tascam DR-680 • Tascam DR-60D • Marantz PMD 661 • Sony M-10 

macMini 3Ghz i7 16GB Ram 500GB SSD • MOTU UltraLite
RODE  NT5's • Naiant MSH-2's •   TOA K1's • Beyer TG 153c's •  AT 853 (4.7kmod darktrain) • Countryman B3's (1 k mod)  + other assorted mics
==============================
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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2017, 01:15:01 AM »
The Marantz PMD 620 has the least amount of metal of any small deck besides the Korg MR-1.
The 620 gets about 4 hours on a good set of batteries, the MR-1 needs you to have an external battery pack (4 AAs or a small phone charging battery.)

The 620 will power sonic studios mics so probably also church mics. That's about as light as I can imagine.
I think punkjazz used to use the Sony M10 to power DPA 4061 mics, which sound better with 48v, but will still work with whatever the M10 was outputting.

I haven't been wanted in years and I haven't had the metal detectors yet.
What will they let you bring in? Batteries? Phone accessories?

The Sony M10 does not power the DPA4061s properly with pip.  You need a battery box or external pre to utilize them effectively in a concert setting. 
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2017, 11:08:25 AM »
(smart ass answer)
m-10
balance in post.
any deck
balance in post...

Agreed. 

AFAIK, the R-05 has a hidden menu that provides balance control, just like the R-09 did.  Check the TS thread on accessing it's hidden Easter-egg menu.  IMO doing so would only be useful if you are always using the same mics with an channel imbalance and wanted to avoid having to re-balance for that every time in post.

Even then, doing it in post would likely be more precise, unless the R-05 can adjust balance in 0.1 dB increments, which I doubt.

If I had this problem, I'd measure the exact difference in output between the two mics, then make a project template file in my DAW that has the one channel adjusted by that amount to compensate. 
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2017, 11:17:52 AM »
The Marantz PMD 620 has the least amount of metal of any small deck besides the Korg MR-1.
The 620 gets about 4 hours on a good set of batteries, the MR-1 needs you to have an external battery pack (4 AAs or a small phone charging battery.)

The 620 will power sonic studios mics so probably also church mics. That's about as light as I can imagine.
I think punkjazz used to use the Sony M10 to power DPA 4061 mics, which sound better with 48v, but will still work with whatever the M10 was outputting.

I haven't been wanted in years and I haven't had the metal detectors yet.
What will they let you bring in? Batteries? Phone accessories?

The Sony M10 does not power the DPA4061s properly with pip.  You need a battery box or external pre to utilize them effectively in a concert setting.

Yup - the 4061 needs 8 V and the M10 only gives you ~3 V.  Not only that, you'd also need custom termination to wire the two DPAs together to a miniplug to use the battery box, or buy a pre-made solution including battery box like the Core Sound HEB.

The DPA 4063 is a low-power variant than is rated down to 3 V so you could in theory run them directly from the M10 PIP with no battery box or preamp, but you still would need a custom dual microdot > miniplug harness made.  The 4063 is also not as common, and you're not likely to find them used unlike the hundreds of 4061s that pop up.

If you really want to run DPAs, get a recorder with XLR inputs like the Tascam DR-100 mkIII and have Jon at Naiant Audio make you a set of PFAs with whatever termination your 4061s come with.  It will be slightly more bulky than what you want to do but will perform better.
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Offline ArchivalAudio

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2017, 08:05:26 PM »
I was not familiar with this deck but is came up in look at the adorama site, a bit bigger tehn the m-10 but smaller then the marantz 661, that includes xlr p/48 + spdif in. also not that cheap at $399 but looks cool.
 I might need one.
http://tascam.com/product/DR-100mkIII/specifications/
https://www.adorama.com/tsdr100mk3b.html
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1263849-REG/tascam_dr_100mkiii_linear_pcm_recorder.html

--Ian

edit this sounds very cool:
Quote
With a dual battery structure that features a built-in high-capacity lithium-ion battery as well as with hot-swappable AA batteries, operation is possible for extended periods of time and is ready to go when you are. Additionally, the DR-100mkIII can be rapidly charged by connecting an AC adapter and even support USB Bus power from an external battery pack commonly used to charge mobile phones and tablets.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 08:09:06 PM by ArchivalAudio »
~ Archival Audio ~
Archiving Worthy Music
since 1986 & digitally since 1995

https://www.facebook.com/ArchivalAudio/

Main Mics: Milab VM-44 Links • Milab DC-196's (Matched  Pair)  •  Busman BSC2 BusBox (K21-O, K41-SC, K11-C)  • Line Audio CM3's
PreAmps:  SD USB-Pre2  • Naiant LittleBox • Naiant [Milab VM44] TinyBox (no bodies) • Naiant PIPsqueak
Recorders: Zoom F8 • Tascam DR-680 • Tascam DR-60D • Marantz PMD 661 • Sony M-10 

macMini 3Ghz i7 16GB Ram 500GB SSD • MOTU UltraLite
RODE  NT5's • Naiant MSH-2's •   TOA K1's • Beyer TG 153c's •  AT 853 (4.7kmod darktrain) • Countryman B3's (1 k mod)  + other assorted mics
==============================
Extra:  Denecke AD-20   |    Presonus FireB

Offline gewwang

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2017, 01:47:45 PM »
I was not familiar with this deck but is came up in look at the adorama site, a bit bigger tehn the m-10 but smaller then the marantz 661, that includes xlr p/48 + spdif in. also not that cheap at $399 but looks cool.
 I might need one.
http://tascam.com/product/DR-100mkIII/specifications/
https://www.adorama.com/tsdr100mk3b.html
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1263849-REG/tascam_dr_100mkiii_linear_pcm_recorder.html

--Ian

edit this sounds very cool:
Quote
With a dual battery structure that features a built-in high-capacity lithium-ion battery as well as with hot-swappable AA batteries, operation is possible for extended periods of time and is ready to go when you are. Additionally, the DR-100mkIII can be rapidly charged by connecting an AC adapter and even support USB Bus power from an external battery pack commonly used to charge mobile phones and tablets.

I mentioned it earlier in these thread. I've been using one for a year since it came out and it's still my go-to deck for super-stealth situations.

This is the discussion thread for it: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=178782.0

Offline aaronji

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2017, 05:46:48 PM »
[Sorry to continue the off-topic conversation, but...]

DPA 4060s need 5V. Lots of threads about this, but, in brief, since DPA discontinued the MMA6000 and the MPS boxes, the easiest way to power them is to get a microdot to 1/8" Y-cable. Then use any mini input battery box or pre. There are even a few recorders that will supply the requisite 5V; I haven't tried this myself, but there are multiple reports of doing this successfully...

Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2017, 06:08:52 PM »
Church Audio preamps can be ordered customized to power 4060s with microdot connectors.  And of course the d:vice MMA-A.  My suspicion is that the MMA-A an upgrade wrt preamps over the MMA-6000, would love some official or measured specs to verify that.  It also has A/D, but no specs on that either.

Jeff

Offline MBHOTAPER

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2017, 01:27:42 AM »
(smart ass answer)
m-10
balance in post.
any deck
balance in post...

Agreed. 

AFAIK, the R-05 has a hidden menu that provides balance control, just like the R-09 did.  Check the TS thread on accessing it's hidden Easter-egg menu.  IMO doing so would only be useful if you are always using the same mics with an channel imbalance and wanted to avoid having to re-balance for that every time in post.

Even then, doing it in post would likely be more precise, unless the R-05 can adjust balance in 0.1 dB increments, which I doubt.

If I had this problem, I'd measure the exact difference in output between the two mics, then make a project template file in my DAW that has the one channel adjusted by that amount to compensate.
Roland r-05 sounds interesting. Any experience with the balance control menus? Don't want to be fumbling a lot in stealth mode.
Thanks

Offline voltronic

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2017, 06:19:37 AM »
[Sorry to continue the off-topic conversation, but...]

DPA 4060s need 5V. Lots of threads about this, but, in brief, since DPA discontinued the MMA6000 and the MPS boxes, the easiest way to power them is to get a microdot to 1/8" Y-cable. Then use any mini input battery box or pre. There are even a few recorders that will supply the requisite 5V; I haven't tried this myself, but there are multiple reports of doing this successfully...

You're right - I don't know where I remembered the 8V from I mentioned earlier.
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- Gustav Mahler

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2017, 09:15:29 AM »
AFAIK, the R-05 has a hidden menu that provides balance control, just like the R-09 did.  Check the TS thread on accessing it's hidden Easter-egg menu.  IMO doing so would only be useful if you are always using the same mics with an channel imbalance and wanted to avoid having to re-balance for that every time in post.

Even then, doing it in post would likely be more precise, unless the R-05 can adjust balance in 0.1 dB increments, which I doubt.

If I had this problem, I'd measure the exact difference in output between the two mics, then make a project template file in my DAW that has the one channel adjusted by that amount to compensate.
Roland r-05 sounds interesting. Any experience with the balance control menus? Don't want to be fumbling a lot in stealth mode.
Thanks

TS thread link - Roland R-05 has secret easter egg menu for more settings too! http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136806.0

R-09 provided balance control in it's secret menu.  I assume R-05 does too.   I don't think it is something you can or would want to try an adjust while recording.  Rather, it's a measure-and-adjust-beforehand, kind of thing to generally equal out levels as a good starting point. 

As stated previously, I'd only bother with that if it the mic sensitivity was significantly off-balance, but I readjust the balance-level of all my recordings by ear as need anyway even if the level difference between channels is spot on.  There are other factors a balance tweak can adjust for, and in the end a correct subjective psychoacoustic balance is more important than a numeric level balance.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2017, 06:37:10 PM »
In a live setting, there may not be a way to make subtle balance adjustments because you're not likely to have the same signal level passing equally passing through both sides of a PA except for that one mythical magical seat rumored to exist somewhere in the venue and then only so briefly that how could you ever set your balance with it?     

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2017, 10:15:26 PM »
In a live setting, there may not be a way to make subtle balance adjustments because you're not likely to have the same signal level passing equally passing through both sides of a PA except for that one mythical magical seat rumored to exist somewhere in the venue and then only so briefly that how could you ever set your balance with it?   
[/quote)

Yep.
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Offline heathen

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Re: Suggestions for a small stealth deck (like pcm-10) but with balnce controls
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2017, 09:49:15 AM »
TS thread link - Roland R-05 has secret easter egg menu for more settings too! http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136806.0

R-09 provided balance control in it's secret menu.  I assume R-05 does too.   I don't think it is something you can or would want to try an adjust while recording.  Rather, it's a measure-and-adjust-beforehand, kind of thing to generally equal out levels as a good starting point. 
I just tried this with my R-05 (firmware version 1.03) and didn't find any balance option in the "secret" menu.
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