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Author Topic: Suggest a setup for a NEWB for recording acoustic/jazz/chamber shows in my loft.  (Read 2667 times)

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Offline ICTWoody

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Hi guys!

I'm new to The Tapers Section, but not new to forums. I'm a thoroughly addicted audio nerd on the playback end, but now I'm considering doing a little taping. Read on.

I am fortunate to live in a loft type space that is about 3700sq/ft. My large living room is a great space and I have been considering doing some small, mostly acoustic shows and hosting 30-40 people for them. The room is pretty live with wood floors, brick walls and Sheetrock ceilings. Some furniture and rugs are in there but I don't intend to do any treatments.

I love the sound of live music and the energy in the room. I think it would be cool to record the events to playback later on my reference system and see how much I can relieve the experiences.

What I would like to know is what type of setup should I look into? I'm thinking of a budget of $1000-1500 to start would be fair. I doubt I'll do much outdoor recording, but there are a couple small venues around town where I go hear jazz shows etc... that would maybe be friendly to me taping so future portability would be nice. But my space is my primary concern. Simpler is better, but I'm pretty techie...

I am an Art Director for a living and I do some photography for fun and so I already have some nice solid ligthstands I could use as a perch for mics. But I can also mount mics to the pillars in my room as well. I'm open to stereo recording from the back, or multi-channel and later editing in Adobe Audition (I use Creative Cloud daily and I'm sure I could lear audition quickly. Plus, I already pay for it.) I guess I'm leaning to multi-track for this setup.

I saw the NPR Field Recordings of Daniel Bachman (video link below) and I loved the look of the two mic setup with one away and one close. I might have some small trios or quartets, but it would be jazz or chamber or all acoustic singer/songwriter stuff. I have no desire to mic instruments individually or have to mix a lot. I want to record the live sound and I'm open to HOW I should do it. I suppose if it's a dude and a guitar I could do a vocal mic, guitar mic, and then room/ambient etc...

I'm kinda looking at the Sound Devices MixPre-3 or MixPre-6 as a basis for the recorder. Seems like a lot of features for the money. A Roland R-44 or Zoom F4 are also options... but the Sound Devices seems to be the hot stuff. I need mic suggestions etc... I'm open to new or used as long as suggestions are readily available. Thinking the first show will be in November.

Okay. Enough rambling. Let me know if you have specific questions I need to answer and I'll do my best. Oh... and here's a couple of pics of my space. This is the area they would setup to play, but this main room is about 38'x40' with 9' ceilings. One side goes back past my kitchen about another 35'. There's another 15' or so left of the columns in the pic below. It's a large volume. I'll post more photos of the room later when I can shoot a couple wide shots for you.

Thanks for your advice!

- Woody

« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 10:59:54 AM by ICTWoody »

Online heathen

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You should probably try to devote the bulk of your budget to mics, and since you said you're mostly interested in a two-mic setup, the MixPre6 might be overkill for the moment.  The MixPre3 would still leave you a very decent chunk of money for mics, while at the same time giving you a quality recorder with excellent preamps.

Considering it's your own space where you can dictate how things are set up, you have some really interesting possibilities for mics.  Do you have any taper friends who could swing by and set up their own mics so you can get a feel for how they'll sound in your room?
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Offline voltronic

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Welcome to TS!   :cheers:

This is a cool idea, and it sounds like your home is a really great setup for this type of thing.  Some thoughts:

Heathen is 100% correct that you should devote most of your budget to your mics.  They will make much more of a difference than a fancy recorder.  So, sorry that means no Sound Devices in your budget. 

For the type of music you are recording, you should never need anything more than one stereo pair of mics.  So for a recorder, I would recommend a Tascam DR-100 mkIII.  You've got 2 phantom-powered mic inputs, and a dual record feature so you have a second set of safety tracks recording at a lower level in case you set your gain is too high.  (This is always the way to go for acoustic music.  A limiter should only be used as a last resort.)  You could even spend a bit less on a DR-70D if you think you need 4 mic inputs, but the preamps and DAC in the DR-100 are better.  That's probably the best bet for a one-box / small / cheap / high quality portable recorder on the market right now.

For mics: While omnis are my favorite to use in a concert hall, they will not be a good choice here.  While you have a large area, your ceiling is too low which will cause too many early reflections in your recording with omnis.  My main floor has 11' ceilings, and in my piano studio it peaks to 14' and even there I won't use my omnis.

You want a pair of small diaphragm cardioids.  The Superlux S502 punches way above its $200 price, but then you're locked into the ORTF array.  Better off to get a separate pair of mics for flexibility, unless you're often recording in great-sounding churches and concerts halls that have acoustics ORTF works well with.

There are plenty of super-cheap mics out there, but most of them are going to be limiting for acoustic recording.  So within your budget:

Jon at Naiant does excellent work, and you can get a pair of his X-Rs for around $200.

Next up would be the Line Audio CM3.  Click the Team Line Audio link in my signature to learn more about them.  About $600 / pr at current exchange from NoHypeAudio.  I use these heavily and they work great in a variety of situations, including a lot of lousy-sounding school auditoriums.

The last great mics in your budget I'd recommend are the AKG Blue Line series at $1000 / pair.  These have the benefit of separate bodies and capsules if you want to change patterns later, it will only cost $200 per capsule.

To get better mics than that, you're moving into the true top-tier - Sennheiser MKH, Schoeps, Neumann, Gefell, DPA, Josephson, etc.  Just one of those mics is going to take up your entire budget (or more).

Finally, get a custom set of mic cables made one of our cable makers here - GAKables or Darktrain.  Both do excellent work.  Jon at Naiant also makes great custom cables.
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Offline ICTWoody

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Thanks for the advice so far guys! I've been reading a lot and trying to learn. It is a lot of stuff to absorb.

I am still thinking this through. I've been through an INSANE amount of stereo equipment over the years, and when it comes to recording I'd like to skip some of the baby steps at the beginning and trying to quell some of the upgrade bug that plagues our hobbies. I really want a multi-track recorder just for the flexibility of trying multiple setups at once. Maybe a close mic'd stereo pair near the "stage lip" as well as a pair on a stand further back behind the audience. I really doubt I'll regret overbuying on the recorder a bit... even if I just wait a couple more paychecks to do it. I'm not in a hurry to start grabbing stuff. Really want to think it through and do my research.

The Line Audio mics look interesting. Nice price point for what I was thinking... I'll read up on them. I love a good used deal... maybe I'll start with a pair of the CM3's new and then watch the marketplace here for a deal on some other options to play with.

Talk to me about cabling. I am a wire believer in the Audio world... I don't really want to admit what I have spent on the cables in my playback rig. It's more than I've set as a budget here for this stuff.  :banging head: What's the good stuff to make cables out of. To be honest I was just thinking something like mogami wire and good XLRS.

I'm here to learn. Thanks!!

- Woody

P.S. I know forum users like pics. Here's my main playback rig. My "reference system." This room is smaller, about 12.5'x16.5' and treated. This isn't a totally current pic, I have a new DAC and the main rack is on the back wall now with only the amps and speakers up front now.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 12:28:11 PM by ICTWoody »

Offline voltronic

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The Line Audio mics look interesting. Nice price point for what I was thinking... I'll read up on them. I love a good used deal... maybe I'll start with a pair of the CM3's new and then watch the marketplace here for a deal on some other options to play with.

They won't disappoint you.  I'd put them at least equal in quality to the AKGs I recommended, and like I said earlier, you have to spend much more to get significantly higher performance.  Good luck finding them used though.  Just buy from NoHypeAudio and be done with it - 250 EUR shipped is very cheap for their quality, and JP at NoHype delivers outstanding customer service.

Talk to me about cabling. I am a wife believer in the Audio world... I don't really want to admit what I have spent on the cables in my playback rig. It's more than I've set as a budget here for this stuff.  :banging head: What's the good stuff to make cables out of. To be honest I was just thinking something like mogami wire and good XLRS.

Mogami is good stuff.  Maybe you missed it, but I gave you 3 sources for custom cable recommendations at the end of my last post.  As to materials, I think "audiophile" cables are snake oil (sorry), but I do believe in quality materials that are used in professional audio and broadcast applications.  All of my home audio stuff is from Blue Jeans Cable.  As to mic cable, for the builders here on the board, Darktrain builds mic cables from Audio Technica mini star-quad; GAKables uses milspec silver-clad copper.  Naiant uses Mogami or Belden depending on the application.  All of them use Neutrik connectors.  I strongly recommend you have one of these people build you a set of mic cables.  You could also buy individual mic cables form someplace like Markertek, in which case I'd recommend Belden or Canare.
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- Gustav Mahler

Offline opsopcopolis

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I tend to agree with Voltronic overall. Wouldn't recommend omnis in a setting like that, I would push for something small diaphragm with the ability to change pattern (on SDC that will mean capsule changes, LDC would be switchable.) I don't know the Line Audios, but at that price you probably wouldn't have a problem just grabbing the cardioids.

If you're relatively handy with a soldering iron I would probably just recommend making your own cable, which is what it sounds like you're looking into. You can get Mogami for about $2/foot.
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
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Offline Moke

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Can't go wrong with a pair of omnis and a pair of directional mics. 
I prefer the sub-cardioid flavor for my directional pair: a little fatter bass response, and better diffuse field response.
For omnis, a DPA 4060 pair. Nearly invisible, yet giant sound.  I've long been an omni fan. With proper baffling, they could make that room sound nice.
I have to admit a bit of a desire to check out the Line Audio OM1 omnis. I've liked the results that I've had with the L.A CM3 pair.

Cables:  Spend on the mics.
Canare or Belden cable stock are my choices, mostly dictated on local availability. Canare is what I typically use, L4E6S, as my local mic pro shop keeps it in bulk rolls.
Learn to solder, saves bucks.
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Offline Moke

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Here are some samples of the CM3 pair in an acoustic orchestra performance, from the stage-lip edge, center, about 8' +,- behind the conductor.

Line Audio CM3 tracks as a Music Only Edit (m.o.edit):
https://archive.org/details/pso2017-03-19.pso2017-03-19_cm3pair_m.o.edit_2448flac
https://archive.org/details/pso2017-03-19.pso017-03-19_cm3pair_m.o.edit_1644flac
These are authorized downloads, no worries; safe, legal, authorized.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 09:06:26 AM by Moke »
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Offline lsd2525

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As far as a "deck" is concerned, perhaps your best option is to look at a high quality preamp/interface and recording directly to a PC/DAW. That would eliminate the need for a recorder and the files would already be on your computer for processing.

Beautiful space.
Mics: ADK A51s; AT4041; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
Recorders: M10; DR-60D; DR-70D

Offline 2manyrocks

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Beautiful space, but all hard surfaces that reflect sound make for a difficult space in which to record.

If portability is not an issue, then a multi track USB interface is enough.  Cm3 mics or dpa 4061 mics.


But I think the main problem will be the hard reflective surfaces which can only be overcome with acoustic treatment or recording elsewhere.  As soon as you record in that space, you're going to hear what I mean.

But it is beautiful.






Offline opsopcopolis

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I also second the interface over recording deck if you're not planning on taking it out at all. You can get a focusrite with 4 good sounding pres for $200-250
Mics: Berliner CM-33, CA-14 card, CA-11 card & omni, AT-853, Sony ECM-907
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Offline ICTWoody

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They won't disappoint you.  I'd put them at least equal in quality to the AKGs I recommended, and like I said earlier, you have to spend much more to get significantly higher performance.  Good luck finding them used though.  Just buy from NoHypeAudio and be done with it - 250 EUR shipped is very cheap for their quality, and JP at NoHype delivers outstanding customer service.

Mogami is good stuff.  Maybe you missed it, but I gave you 3 sources for custom cable recommendations at the end of my last post.  As to materials, I think "audiophile" cables are snake oil (sorry), but I do believe in quality materials that are used in professional audio and broadcast applications.  All of my home audio stuff is from Blue Jeans Cable.  As to mic cable, for the builders here on the board, Darktrain builds mic cables from Audio Technica mini star-quad; GAKables uses milspec silver-clad copper.  Naiant uses Mogami or Belden depending on the application.  All of them use Neutrik connectors.  I strongly recommend you have one of these people build you a set of mic cables.  You could also buy individual mic cables form someplace like Markertek, in which case I'd recommend Belden or Canare.

I'm getting close to just putting the CM3 pair on my list of gear. I listened to some close mic'd samples on youtube last night of solo guitar stuff and they sounded great even with YouTube's questionable quality. I was listening through my headphone rig which is a Chord Mojo DAC into a pair of Oppo PM-3 Planar Magnetics. They are the best headphones I've owned... and I've had a lot. Really liked what I was hearing from the PM3's though.

Should I get the optional shock mounts with them?

I've used BJC at home before. I have a couple pair of the IC's in my stash at the moment I'm sure. Nice stuff for the money. I really like Mogami wire. Even with all my expensive silver wires in my main rig, I use a pair of Mogami Gold XLRs (20') from my Modwright preamp to my mono blocks. I just can't justify spending any more on long XLRs for that rig then that. I'll probably go with one of the TS builders you suggested.

Are long cable runs an issue when taping?

- Woody

Offline Moke

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Line Audio Shockmounts? Yes!
They are fine. For $15 each, you'll not find anything better. You also get the hard mount clips included with the base mics.

I run 50' unbalanced runs frequently, *without any issues.  Balanced runs, not slightly an issue.

*And, I do so through a pair of adaptors that I've built that allow me to use one 50' xlr cable as a stereo cable.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 10:35:56 AM by Moke »
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Offline ICTWoody

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I tend to agree with Voltronic overall. Wouldn't recommend omnis in a setting like that, I would push for something small diaphragm with the ability to change pattern (on SDC that will mean capsule changes, LDC would be switchable.) I don't know the Line Audios, but at that price you probably wouldn't have a problem just grabbing the cardioids.

If you're relatively handy with a soldering iron I would probably just recommend making your own cable, which is what it sounds like you're looking into. You can get Mogami for about $2/foot.

Yeah, from what I've been reading about the Line Audios they are a "punch above their weight" type value, and for a beginner like me they would probably be a great place to start. Maybe I'll just order a pair each of the Omni's and the Cardioids. Just to play with. :-)

If the recording turns into a more serious addiction then I can always add mics to the quiver.

I've made lots of cables over the years, but these days I'd rather just let pros do it for me and use my time for other things. I'm sure I'll start there. I do like Mogami wire. I've used it for interconnects, headphone cables and speaker cable over the years and always found it's price-to-performace ratio to be quite high.

- Woody

Offline Moke

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One thing you'll want to consider, if you go with the LA line, is that they're small mics.  You should have one of our cable builders set you up with a pair of right angle *"Whips", or, smaller diameter cables that are a little easier to get aligned without weirdly loading the mic shock mounts.

* searching my mind for a term for these.
I went with Whips, as that is a term used in painting and airless spray rigs.  The "Whips" are a reduced diameter, more flexible hose, that makes a day with a spray gun a little easier than pulling around a heavy stiff hose. They are a more flexible 15' end to a 100' hose.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 10:41:05 AM by Moke »
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Offline ICTWoody

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Beautiful space, but all hard surfaces that reflect sound make for a difficult space in which to record.

If portability is not an issue, then a multi track USB interface is enough.  Cm3 mics or dpa 4061 mics.


But I think the main problem will be the hard reflective surfaces which can only be overcome with acoustic treatment or recording elsewhere.  As soon as you record in that space, you're going to hear what I mean.

But it is beautiful.

I think that some of the disadvantages of that room when it comes to acoustic things like reflections etc... can be somewhat mitigated by choosing the type of performers I have up there. It has a lot of natural verb, but I have several stereos in that room I rotate around (including the big altecs pictured) and I'm pretty familiar with the sound in there. Acoustic recordings sound really nice cause of the natural verb... rock and stuff, not as much.

My dedicated listening room is smaller at 12.5'x16.5' and it's fully treated and measured. I have it setup so my head is in a reflection free zone and there is a lot of full range trapping to help mitigate room modes. It's not that I couldn't treat the big room... it's just an aesthetic thing (remember, I'm a designer for a living) and it won't be happening. But instead of looking at the sound of the room as a huge drawback, I'll probably just embrace it and try and tailor the music to it a bit.

As for portability, I really think that I will be taking the rig out and doing some location recording at least every couple months. I know a lot of small venues and bands that would let me tape... so why not if I'm going to invest in the gear. Also... even though I'm all MAC when it comes to computers, I feel like there is still more risk recording to my MacBook Pro etc... than a dedicated recorder. I really want to keep the computer out of it just to avoid any software instability issues. Plus... I wanna be like you guys!!! :-)

- Woody

Offline Moke

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I mentioned "Whips" for the LA pair.
This is a pair of Belden 1804a silver-plated copper small diameter quad-star cable whips, and the CM3 pair.  The small diameter, lighter cable, and right angle offset allow for mounting the mics in the mount without loading them which causes off-center mounting.
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Online heathen

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The DR-100mkIII and a pair of those CM3s is going to have you set up really well, and with some money in your budget left over for all the miscellaneous stuff that quickly adds up like cables, memory cards, a stand, some kind of stereo bar, etc.  Make sure to post some of your pulls here.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | Countryman B3s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
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Offline ICTWoody

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The DR-100mkIII and a pair of those CM3s is going to have you set up really well, and with some money in your budget left over for all the miscellaneous stuff that quickly adds up like cables, memory cards, a stand, some kind of stereo bar, etc.  Make sure to post some of your pulls here.

Yeah... the CM3's seem like a no-brainer as a starting set. If I want to change patterns I'll just buy another mic pair down the road. I LOVE high-value brands, and Line Audio Design definitely seems to be one of those brands.

I have stands already... nice ones from my photography stuff. Light ones which would work well for portable recording, and some really rigid studio ones that I'll probably use in my place. I have some short Mogami XLRs I can use if I mount the recorder close to the stand for now. But I will probably order some light weight ones like Moke suggested.

The DR-100MKIII looks nice... but I REALLY think I want the flexibility of more tracks. To me 4 is a minimum... and I'm definitely in the having more than I need and not use them, rather than the wish I had more, camp. Going to a recorder that has nicer features to me justifies the cost... the Sound Design units can serve as a USB interface if I want to record to my computer, the Class-A preamps are supposed to be very nice (and I'm a huge believe in preamps making a huge different, albeit coming from the playback world. My most expensive component is my Modwright 36.5 pre.) Analogue limiters, if I need them in the future, good DAC's etc... Plus, to me, the remote app is a big plus — which is almost an exclusive feature of those units.

Now — assuming that I was pre-disposed to 4+ tracks, and a budget of $900 MAX for a recorder, and I wanted the OPTION of portability, the question becomes IS the MixPre-3/6 the best recorder option for the reasons listed above. Or is something like a Zoom F4/F8, Roland R-44E, or something with more tracks from Tascam, like a DR-60/DR-40/DR-680/DR-701 a better value?

Are there any generalizations/consensus regarding brands among the more serious tapers? Like "lower end Tascam sucks, don't waste your money" etc... I should be aware of? And sorry if I just made anyone LOL asking if there was consensus in an audio-related hobby. :bigsmile:

- Woody

Online heathen

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Now — assuming that I was pre-disposed to 4+ tracks, and a budget of $900 MAX for a recorder, and I wanted the OPTION of portability, the question becomes IS the MixPre-3/6 the best recorder option for the reasons listed above. Or is something like a Zoom F4/F8, Roland R-44E, or something with more tracks from Tascam, like a DR-60/DR-40/DR-680/DR-701 a better value?

Are there any generalizations/consensus regarding brands among the more serious tapers? Like "lower end Tascam sucks, don't waste your money" etc... I should be aware of? And sorry if I just made anyone LOL asking if there was consensus in an audio-related hobby. :bigsmile:

- Woody

I was recently researching some of the recorders you mention, though I had slightly different criteria than you which knocked some of those you mentioned out of the running for me.  My advice would be to start with the features you most want and get a list of potential recorders based on that.  Once you have that list (which will probably be around 6ish, I'm guessing), look through the threads on the Recording Gear subforum.  There is probably a dedicated thread for each that you're considering.  Those threads should give you an idea of what issues people are running into by using them in live concert audience taping situations (which is most of the time not what the recorder was intended for).  Keep in mind, of course, that people are going to be more inclined to post about problems than they are to just say "everything works great."

As for general consensus, I think if anything most people will say that all of the recorders you mentioned are fine, with the differences between them being fairly small in the big picture of things.  We're not talking about the difference between McIntosh separates and a Bose all-in-one POS here  ;)

You don't NEED to get a MixPre6 to have 4+ channels of quality audio.  Without starting a war here, I'd bet that in most live concert taping situations the difference between MixPre6 preamps and those in a DR-680mkII would be hardly audible, if at all.  Keep in mind that your money is better spent on mics.  I'll take a DR-680mkII with top-of-the-line mics over a Sound Devices recorder being fed mediocre mics any day.
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Offline kuba e

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Woody, read this thread, there are a lot of informations about recorders.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=183193.0

Offline ICTWoody

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Woody, read this thread, there are a lot of informations about recorders.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=183193.0

Thanks. I'll read through that thread tonight.

- Woody

Offline ICTWoody

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As for general consensus, I think if anything most people will say that all of the recorders you mentioned are fine, with the differences between them being fairly small in the big picture of things.  We're not talking about the difference between McIntosh separates and a Bose all-in-one POS here  ;)

You don't NEED to get a MixPre6 to have 4+ channels of quality audio.  Without starting a war here, I'd bet that in most live concert taping situations the difference between MixPre6 preamps and those in a DR-680mkII would be hardly audible, if at all.  Keep in mind that your money is better spent on mics.  I'll take a DR-680mkII with top-of-the-line mics over a Sound Devices recorder being fed mediocre mics any day.

I agree for the most part regarding the likelihood of the quality being more even in "real world settings." I wonder about the usability, features et, al, though. I still have a lot more reading to do. Gonna keep diving in.

- Woody

Offline goodcooker

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I'm guessing from your handle that you are in Wichita. I just moved there a few months ago. Also guessing from your pics that you are in Old Town or at least downtown somewhere. So am I. Been taping for a bunch of years (concert and home studio stuff). If you would like to get together and talk recording send me a PM and we can have some beers or whatever.

I also may have a complete turnkey rig I may be willing to sell to get you started for well under your budget.
MK41 > nBob > PFA > Aerco MP2/RAD MS2 > DR60d/DR2d
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Generally, a battery powered standalone recorder is much easier to deal with if you intend to record outside your home in places where setting up your mac with an interface is inconvenient or risky.

FWIW, I think you're on the right track to think about at least 4 channels because that gives you much more flexibility later than a 2 channel recorder. 

In choosing from among the recorders you listed, particular features matter.  For example, if you want a recorder that can be controlled over HDMI with a capable DSLR, then it's the mix pre or 701d.  I think the zooms have a different time code setup--not sure what it is.  Consider the external battery requirements for each recorder because some can be powered with a simple cell phone battery, some use the C-style battery and some may need a 12v battery.  Also suggest that you look carefully at the display screen because some screens have better metering displays than others.  These recorders are just enough different between models that you need to look at their features carefully before you buy. 

Cm3s have a small body that isn't as visually obtrusive in photos as some larger body mics.  They do have a wide card pattern which may pick up more reflections than some other choices.  They are nice sounding mics. 

The reflections in the space will change when packed with people. 

A lot of equipment trading goes on here.  You might find some setup that suits you at a good price.

Offline Moke

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Portable recorders, via a DC powering scheme, will NEVER give you a 60hz AC buzz.
Dirty AC power sucks, and it is in abundance.
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Offline ICTWoody

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I'm guessing from your handle that you are in Wichita. I just moved there a few months ago. Also guessing from your pics that you are in Old Town or at least downtown somewhere. So am I. Been taping for a bunch of years (concert and home studio stuff). If you would like to get together and talk recording send me a PM and we can have some beers or whatever.

I also may have a complete turnkey rig I may be willing to sell to get you started for well under your budget.

Awesome! Yeah, I'm in Delano. Right by the clock tower. I'll send you a PM and we can meet up... love to show you my space and pick your brain. I'll PM you.

- Woody

Offline voltronic

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Regarding shockmounts - I can't speak to the effectiveness of the Line Audio mounts, but I can tell you that the CM3 is a bit more vibration-sensitive than other mics.  Perhaps this is due to their ultra-light weight.  To that end, I always recommend Rycote shocks above anything else, though they do cost a bit more. 

I saved quite a bit of money buy purchasing the softest lyres separately and doing a DIY job on the rest of the mounts.

Regarding the suggestion on ultra-light cables - as long as you properly strain-relief your cable dressing, you can use as thick and heavy a cable as you like.  The only situation where I need to use super-light cabling is when rigging my DPA 4061s on a low-profile carbon fiber stand which would otherwise flex under the weight of thicker cable.
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Offline ICTWoody

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Regarding shockmounts - I can't speak to the effectiveness of the Line Audio mounts, but I can tell you that the CM3 is a bit more vibration-sensitive than other mics.  Perhaps this is due to their ultra-light weight.  To that end, I always recommend Rycote shocks above anything else, though they do cost a bit more. 

I saved quite a bit of money buy purchasing the softest lyres separately and doing a DIY job on the rest of the mounts.

Regarding the suggestion on ultra-light cables - as long as you properly strain-relief your cable dressing, you can use as thick and heavy a cable as you like.  The only situation where I need to use super-light cabling is when rigging my DPA 4061s on a low-profile carbon fiber stand which would otherwise flex under the weight of thicker cable.

Good to know. I'm getting pretty settled on giving a pair of CM3's a try. I might snag their shock mounts... but I'll look into the Rycote shocks as well.

- Woody

Offline bombdiggity

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Beautiful space, but all hard surfaces that reflect sound make for a difficult space in which to record.

If portability is not an issue, then a multi track USB interface is enough.  Cm3 mics or dpa 4061 mics.


But I think the main problem will be the hard reflective surfaces which can only be overcome with acoustic treatment or recording elsewhere.  As soon as you record in that space, you're going to hear what I mean.

But it is beautiful.

I think that some of the disadvantages of that room when it comes to acoustic things like reflections etc... can be somewhat mitigated by choosing the type of performers I have up there. It has a lot of natural verb, but I have several stereos in that room I rotate around (including the big altecs pictured) and I'm pretty familiar with the sound in there. Acoustic recordings sound really nice cause of the natural verb... rock and stuff, not as much.


I was going to say in response to the initial comment to look at the type of music proposed... 

acoustic/jazz/chamber is fine in any room (and often better in rooms with a little more reflectivity).  Just host people who know how to play without amplification (or at most a little amp for bass or whatever needs it). 

The second aspect is positioning.  You'll probably want to go "stage lip".  That's a safer position anyway in terms of hosting in an informal environment.  I'd done quite a few house shows over the years and as host you don't have time to monitor gear nor is it a good use of your time anyway.  Also generally lacking fixed seating means the audience space is flexible (and they'll appreciate that more).  In terms of everyone including you enjoying the show you'll likely end up with the mics on stage or at the very back to keep them out of the way.  In a huge live room the back is not prime recording space... 

Close you can do omnis or cards.  I don't use omnis but if I were in a live room I'd only use them close. 

It looks like a really nice space. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline ICTWoody

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Yes. The more I read, the more I think a close miking solution will work better here. But I might set a pair somewhere near the middle as well. Depending where I setup the talent I could actually mount mics on the posts in the room and not need an actual stand which would/could disturb seating and movement. I have a lot of options really. A pair of omni's might be cool to have in my arsenal to put almost among the players if there is a small trio or something. Or "stage lip" and still get some of the ambient room/crowd noise... which, right or wrong, I do find kind of charming.

One thing I want to mention here that I mentioned on another forum is that the recording is a bonus in my eyes to hosting the show and having friends over. If I was just recording for recording sake, I would put the player(s) in my smaller listening room which is treated. I know it would sound better. That might be an option down the road if I just want to make a pure recording. But having the show is the primary concern for me. The archiving of it is a bonus.

- Woody

Offline bombdiggity

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One thing I want to mention here that I mentioned on another forum is that the recording is a bonus in my eyes to hosting the show and having friends over.


Yeah it's a good thing to do if you have the space and inclination.  We had a lot of fun with it, though its a tremendous amount of work, especially if you're not used to entertaining. 

I didn't have an unlimited budget and we did it for touring artists so we'd suggest a donation to the musicians and pass the hat which adds a layer of promotion that's a lot more work.  If you're just throwing a party for guests with some music and have large numbers of friends it is simpler, though you need to be careful how you set expectations.  Chamber music doesn't work well as background to party conversations.  We would have some time for conversation beforehand, then the performance and further time for conversation afterward (though we drew in a niche from a huge region, so due to that and demographics at least half the crowd needed to leave right after the show).  It's trial and perhaps a little error but a nice way to build community if you have talent in those areas.  The best one we did was an entire weekend mini-festival with seminars and workshops, an afternoon BBQ, and two evening concerts.  It was pretty amazing...  Even the band really enjoyed it  :cheers:
 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline ICTWoody

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Next up would be the Line Audio CM3.  Click the Team Line Audio link in my signature to learn more about them.  About $600 / pr at current exchange from NoHypeAudio.  I use these heavily and they work great in a variety of situations, including a lot of lousy-sounding school auditoriums.

We'll I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a pair of CM3's. JP told me they would probably ship in about 2 weeks as they are on backorder. They are actually only about $335 with shipping at the current exchange rate for a PAIR! From everything I've read about them they seem like a great value. I'm debating about adding a pair of OM1's to the order too... for another $262 it is REALLY REALLY tempting just to have options. JP said that if I add them before the CM3's ship it won't cost me any more shipping, which was about 30euro. A pair of Cardioids and a pair of Omni's that are well reviewed for under $600 seems like a sweet deal for this beginner.

I did get the shock mounts as well, but probably will just get the mics without shocks if I order the OM1's.

- Woody

Offline Moke

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Omnis are less prone to handling noise. You'll probably be fine with the standard mounts; the directional mics,.. a different story.
And, you can also foot your stand with sorbothane cups for isolation, rather than shocks. It is a bit more low profile that way, too.
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Offline voltronic

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Next up would be the Line Audio CM3.  Click the Team Line Audio link in my signature to learn more about them.  About $600 / pr at current exchange from NoHypeAudio.  I use these heavily and they work great in a variety of situations, including a lot of lousy-sounding school auditoriums.

We'll I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a pair of CM3's. JP told me they would probably ship in about 2 weeks as they are on backorder. They are actually only about $335 with shipping at the current exchange rate for a PAIR! From everything I've read about them they seem like a great value. I'm debating about adding a pair of OM1's to the order too... for another $262 it is REALLY REALLY tempting just to have options. JP said that if I add them before the CM3's ship it won't cost me any more shipping, which was about 30euro. A pair of Cardioids and a pair of Omni's that are well reviewed for under $600 seems like a sweet deal for this beginner.

I did get the shock mounts as well, but probably will just get the mics without shocks if I order the OM1's.

- Woody

 :coolguy:

If you read up on user experiences with the CM3s, most people (myself included) get the best results in stereo arrays where they are set a bit wider than you would standard cardioids.  NOS spacing (30 cm between capsules, angled 90 deg) is a good starting point.  Lately I prefer the "hybrid" where they are angled a bit wider at 110 deg, using this mount from Scott at SRS.  Don't worry about that now though - you'd need a different kind of shock mounts for those kind of mic clips.  Better off right now you experiment using a standard separate bar where you can individually manipulate the mics.

Last thing I'll add is that if your HVAC has any sort of significant breeze to it, use the included foam windscreens.  They're not worth much outdoors, but the CM3 can be quite wind-sensitive even with gentle indoor currents.
DPA 4061 | Line Audio CM3 | Naiant X-Q
Naiant PFAs | Shure FP24
Tascam DR-70D JWMod | Sony PCM-M10

Tascam DR-70D FAQ
Team Line Audio
Quote
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.    ///    If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
- Gustav Mahler

 

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