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Author Topic: Fabric over mics  (Read 1479 times)

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Online heathen

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Fabric over mics
« on: September 12, 2017, 11:15:33 PM »
Let's say, hypothetically speaking, someone wanted to have a pair of AT853 cards under a t-shirt.  Would it be necessary to have the windscreens on the caps to avoid picking up the sound of the t-shirt fabric rubbing against the caps?  Or would that possibly exacerbate the problem?  Assume this would be at an indoor show where wind isn't a factor.

Why someone would want to have microphones under some t-shirt material is beyond me...
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | Countryman B3s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 12:17:40 AM »
Let's say, hypothetically speaking, someone wanted to have a pair of AT853 cards under a t-shirt.  Would it be necessary to have the windscreens on the caps to avoid picking up the sound of the t-shirt fabric rubbing against the caps?  Or would that possibly exacerbate the problem?  Assume this would be at an indoor show where wind isn't a factor.

Why someone would want to have microphones under some t-shirt material is beyond me...

It is advisable to have light windscreens on in that case to avoid any rubbing noises though that may not be necessary if one is careful and still. 

I use fabric over windscreens outside in high wind situations where the windscreens aren't enough and that works great.  Thin fabric is fine.  It doesn't have any discernable impact on the sound quality. 
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Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Gordon

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 09:15:19 AM »
the few times I did  >:D  I used church audio in the collar without screens and no noticeable noise from the fabric.
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Offline adrianb

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 05:05:35 AM »
I have had good results from gaffer taping mics to my shoulder under a t-shirt.

Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 09:18:04 AM »
I have had good results from gaffer taping mics to my shoulder under a t-shirt.

 :coolguy:

Now I have to look up where I can find a place for "Waxing" on my back and shoulders...Or go around with hairless epaulets under my shirt...
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Offline Ronmac

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2017, 09:46:59 AM »
The film and doc soundies tape/strap/glue/hide mics under clothing and/or on to skin every day. I have a small pelican case loaded with items for this.

If you google the following items you will find product usage tutorials:

Hide a Lav

Rycote undercover

Rycote overcover

Rode invisilav

Moleskin for mic placement

Lav belts

Offline gewwang

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2017, 10:09:31 AM »
why mount mics on shoulders and backs? You get more height when you mount them under a hat.

Offline beatkilla

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 10:42:49 AM »
why mount mics on shoulders and backs? You get more height when you mount them under a hat.

True but you look suspicious as hell standing there never moving your head.

Online heathen

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 11:00:43 AM »
why mount mics on shoulders and backs? You get more height when you mount them under a hat.

I just can't tolerate it.  I'd rather not tape a show than have to stand there not even being able to move my head.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | Countryman B3s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
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Offline gewwang

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 11:13:49 AM »
Well, I mount the mics in my hat and I still move my head during shows. I've yet to hear anyone complain.

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 12:55:20 PM »
why mount mics on shoulders and backs? You get more height when you mount them under a hat.

I just can't tolerate it.  I'd rather not tape a show than have to stand there not even being able to move my head.

Just wear a black collared shirt and clip them to the outside of the collars (angled a little upward assuming the PA is overhead).  No one will see them in a moderately dark hall. 

It is way more comfortable than the hat approach, allows more freedom of movement and there is no fabric baffle involved. 

I really don't think there's any loss between this and in a hat unless you are considerably shorter than average.  They're within about 3 inches of your ears this way. 

You can also get a black hat and clip them to the brim or edges by your ears though that's a little more obvious. 

Inside hat would be my last resort. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 12:59:52 PM »
Just wear a black collared shirt and clip them to the outside of the collars (angled a little upward assuming the PA is overhead).  No one will see them in a moderately dark hall. 

I've done this.  I was thinking about alternatives, though, which led to my original question that was just about fabric making contact with the mics.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | Countryman B3s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
Decks: Zoom F4 | Roland R-05

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 01:02:56 PM »

Just wear a black collared shirt and clip them to the outside of the collars (angled a little upward assuming the PA is overhead).  No one will see them in a moderately dark hall. 

It is way more comfortable than the hat approach, allows more freedom of movement and there is no fabric baffle involved. 

I really don't think there's any loss between this and in a hat unless you are considerably shorter than average.  They're within about 3 inches of your ears this way. 

You can also get a black hat and clip them to the brim or edges by your ears though that's a little more obvious. 

Those are my two preferred methods: Black mics clipped to side of black baseball cap, or clipped to collar of black collared shirt. Nobody has ever called attention to it or oftentimes even noticed — as evidenced by the occasional appearances of a whispered "Are you taping?" in one channel from my well-meaning friends who don't notice they're talking directly into a mic.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 11:16:33 AM »
[snip] fabric making contact with the mics.

The type of fabric, the microphone surface that it comes into contact with, and the way they interact with each other are all key.  The other primary factor is the sound level of the recorded environment.  Generally there is little problem when recording loud program material, while fabric interaction noise can become a significant problem when recording very quiet material.

First, the fabric itself must be sufficiently transparent in the sonic sense so as not to muffle the sound, and the microphone mounting method must also sonically transparent, allowing for an unobstructed sound path.  Those two aspects refer to the simple 'static' non-moving/non-shifting condition, with no relative motion between the two.  Just getting those aspects right may be sufficient for louder material.  If only it was that simple for the quiet stuff..

Secondly, there will be some degree of handling noise created by movement, sometimes incrementally small movements which are otherwise undetectable, such as tiny movements from simply breathing.  That might be traced to the fabric rubbing against the microphone itself or its attachment, or cables moving and rubbing and transmitting noise through the cable structure to the microphone.  Different fabrics behave very differently, some which are otherwise beautifully transparent to sound are mechanically very raspy and tend to make more noise when shifting slightly.  Foam windscreens tend to make a lot of rasping noise if the fabric actually rubs across them and so can some mic grid screens and/or sharp edges.  One approach is to try and anchor the fabric and mic so they don't shift relative to each other and rub, but that can be difficult to achieve in practice.  I find anchoring the mics in place and providing a smooth surface for loose fabric of the appropriate texture to come in contact with tends to work well.
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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 07:19:15 PM »
I was at Sound Summit on Mt. Tam (just over Golden Gate) and despite taper-friendly bands, policy said no recorders. I decided not to press luck and set bag up on a slope before the pit, covering mics/bag with a shirt. Wish I had taken the small wind screens off as there wasn't wind, but it did the job. For Phil Lesh and Bob Weir, I moved the bag to a dead center area and set it up right behind the official photographer, who had no idea. Wish I could have run open as it would have killed.

https://archive.org/details/phil2017-09-09

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2017, 01:21:32 AM »
why mount mics on shoulders and backs? You get more height when you mount them under a hat.

True but you look suspicious as hell standing there never moving your head.

Only when the music is playing

Offline morst

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2017, 01:48:37 AM »
GREAT links from Ronmac! Thanks! :D

The film and doc soundies tape/strap/glue/hide mics under clothing and/or on to skin every day. I have a small pelican case loaded with items for this.
If you google the following items you will find product usage tutorials:
Hide a Lav
Rycote undercover
Rycote overcover
Rode invisilav
Moleskin for mic placement
Lav belts

While digging those, I found this: DPA Microphones DMM0022 Concealer for d:screet Heavy-Duty 4060, 4061, and 4071 Microphones
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/accessories/concealer-for-dscreet-4060-4061-4062-4063-4071

Quote
It features a separable construction; the top of the concealer can be separated from the base. This allows you to affix the base to clothing, yet allows the top part to be removed independently.

With the concealer comes a unique, detachable space bracket that secures distance to the clothing. This prevents clothing from touching the concealer; thus preventing the creation of noise. The space bracket clicks in and out of the top of the concealer.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2017, 08:49:07 AM »
^
Good example- the top stainless wire loop is intended for the fabric to rubs against, presenting a smooth "less scratchy" surface.

I use the older non-heavy-duty DPA 406x concealers which are a similar single plastic part without the wire bits, and the clear plastic cover serves the same purpose.  The wire loop probably works better, by providing a bit of air space between the surface and mic element and making it less likely fabric will contact the mic grid mesh.

DPA's hard-rubber boundary mount adapters for these mics work well too, making for a very flat and smooth surface under fabric.  Would be good to incorporate such a wire loop into those as well, but they aren't actually intended for use under fabric.
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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2017, 10:47:17 AM »
Are the DPA 406x the same size as the Countryman B3, so that could be used with the B3?
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | Countryman B3s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2017, 03:24:04 PM »
Almost exactly the same size.  I suspect they would work, and possibly in the boundary mounts as well.

I recently gave my good B3 pair away, but I might have some old bad ones in the bin which I can test fit..
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Re: Fabric over mics
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2017, 03:36:02 PM »
I probably should have Googled first...

DPA 4060 diameter: 5.4 mm (0.21 in)
Countryman B3 diameter: 5.8 mm (0.23 in)
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | Countryman B3s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
Decks: Zoom F4 | Roland R-05

 

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