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Offline acidjack

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2017, 02:15:36 PM »
One rule of recorders--whatever you buy will be obsolete in a month. I'd bet for most of us the MixPre6 does enough for us channel-wise; for now I personally feel like the Zoom F8 is fine for me if I need more (have really only used all 8 once or twice).... But the 10T is a nice upgrade, especially having a professional-quality powering option. Looks like the body is almost the same size but with the "wings" for the additional XLRs.  $1800 is still a reasonable price, too.

I don't think the MixPre-10T makes the 6 or 3 obsolete in any way.  Different models for different uses.  Personally, I will never need ten channels or timecode.  Six (four, really) is more than sufficient and I much prefer the smaller size and lighter weight...

Exactly.... I really feel like the 6 is an optimal size. It's enough smaller/lighter than a Zoom F8 that it makes a difference. The -10 actually looks bigger than the Zoom, plus given how the -6 does with powering, I'm guessing the 10 will need loads of power.
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Offline MBHOTAPER

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2017, 11:49:45 PM »
have a feeling I may be purchasing an mp6 with the forthcoming fire sale from people upgrading  :cheers: :guitarist: ;D
Sd 702 & 744 prices should be dropping also.
How does the mixpre pres compare to the old 702, 744 and 788s?
Paul or anyone who has had experience(s) with the 702, 744 and 788. How do these pres compare to the new mixpres? Seen others ask about this also but one has commented yet.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 11:51:27 PM by MBHOTAPER »

Offline voltronic

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2017, 09:03:26 AM »
have a feeling I may be purchasing an mp6 with the forthcoming fire sale from people upgrading  :cheers: :guitarist: ;D
Sd 702 & 744 prices should be dropping also.
How does the mixpre pres compare to the old 702, 744 and 788s?
Paul or anyone who has had experience(s) with the 702, 744 and 788. How do these pres compare to the new mixpres? Seen others ask about this also but one has commented yet.

I think the 788 is the comparison most of us would be interested in, as those are SD's best preamps to this point.  From the horse's mouth:
http://www.sounddevices.com/tech-notes/788t-microphone-preamplifiers
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Offline justink

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2017, 09:13:20 AM »
have a feeling I may be purchasing an mp6 with the forthcoming fire sale from people upgrading  :cheers: :guitarist: ;D
Sd 702 & 744 prices should be dropping also.
How does the mixpre pres compare to the old 702, 744 and 788s?
Paul or anyone who has had experience(s) with the 702, 744 and 788. How do these pres compare to the new mixpres? Seen others ask about this also but one has commented yet.

I think the 788 is the comparison most of us would be interested in, as those are SD's best preamps to this point.  From the horse's mouth:
http://www.sounddevices.com/tech-notes/788t-microphone-preamplifiers

they've had NINE YEARS of R&D and tech advances.  I doubt they would release an inferior product.

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Offline waltmon

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2017, 10:55:06 AM »
They have said all along that the Kashmir pre-amps are a significant upgrade to the 7XX series pre-amps. I love my 744, but I hear a definite positive difference. My only beef to date with these decks to date is the lack of a digital input - now especially with the 10T...they could have used one pair of the XLR inputs as a combo XLR/AES like the 744T has...
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Offline justink

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2017, 11:17:49 AM »
They have said all along that the Kashmir pre-amps are a significant upgrade to the 7XX series pre-amps. I love my 744, but I hear a definite positive difference. My only beef to date with these decks to date is the lack of a digital input - now especially with the 10T...they could have used one pair of the XLR inputs as a combo XLR/AES like the 744T has...

they could.  but i just don't see the need in it.  i prefer them to have 8 full pre's instead of 2 and 2 like the 744.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2017, 11:31:27 AM »
have a feeling I may be purchasing an mp6 with the forthcoming fire sale from people upgrading  :cheers: :guitarist: ;D
Sd 702 & 744 prices should be dropping also.
How does the mixpre pres compare to the old 702, 744 and 788s?
Paul or anyone who has had experience(s) with the 702, 744 and 788. How do these pres compare to the new mixpres? Seen others ask about this also but one has commented yet.

I think the 788 is the comparison most of us would be interested in, as those are SD's best preamps to this point.  From the horse's mouth:
http://www.sounddevices.com/tech-notes/788t-microphone-preamplifiers

they've had NINE YEARS of R&D and tech advances.  I doubt they would release an inferior product.

All I'm saying is that high-end discrete analog components tend to be expensive, which is not a big deal in a $6500 device but it IS a big deal in a $1700 one.

The digital conversion certainly should be better than the old 7 series as those chips have gotten better / cheaper, but it's the analog front end of the preamps that most interests me here, as they have to meet a much lower price point.  The 7-series (and the old MixPres) had beefy discrete components, and the 788 eliminated the input transformers, I believe.  I'm wondering what type of circuit the new Kashmir preamps use, and how they are getting superior performance at this much lower price.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2017, 11:39:37 AM »
They have said all along that the Kashmir pre-amps are a significant upgrade to the 7XX series pre-amps. I love my 744, but I hear a definite positive difference.

Thanks for sharing your comparison.

My only beef to date with these decks to date is the lack of a digital input - now especially with the 10T...they could have used one pair of the XLR inputs as a combo XLR/AES like the 744T has...

If they had done so, that would have even more seriously undercut sales for the 788, although it seems we're still waiting for AES42 mics to gain any serious market presence.

The other big missing feature from the 788 I'm hearing from the classical guys on the GS Remote board is linking multiple units for higher track counts.  This seems like something they certainly could add to the 10T through firmware updates.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2017, 04:26:59 PM »
Purely my own conjecture, but I'm not sure if the mp10t really undercuts 788t sales if about everyone that can afford a 788t must have bought one by this point in its product cycle.  SD may be aiming at a broader market with this $1800 price point.  But this is all my own conjecture.

At the rate new recorders are being released, it almost seems risky to jump on any one of them until the market settles and we see how they really stack up in the real world.

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2017, 05:52:39 PM »
This conversation about preamp quality is absurd. No one here is equipped with the measurement tools (or ears) to test the tiny, minuscule theoretical differences that might exist. Everyone is recording amplified music, which makes any difference entirely moot, and the number of blind listening tests posted on this forum is exactly zero, as it has been for many, many years. Even sans listening comps... no one is even discussing published specifications, probably because they don't know what they mean.

Personal bias and marketing hype is the only thing being discussed here. There are huge feature set differences between the 6-series, 7-series, and mixpre series; spending even a moment discussing "preamp quality" is a colossal waste of time.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 05:55:24 PM by hi and lo »

Offline voltronic

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2017, 09:10:51 PM »
This conversation about preamp quality is absurd. No one here is equipped with the measurement tools (or ears) to test the tiny, minuscule theoretical differences that might exist. Everyone is recording amplified music, which makes any difference entirely moot, and the number of blind listening tests posted on this forum is exactly zero, as it has been for many, many years. Even sans listening comps... no one is even discussing published specifications, probably because they don't know what they mean.

Personal bias and marketing hype is the only thing being discussed here. There are huge feature set differences between the 6-series, 7-series, and mixpre series; spending even a moment discussing "preamp quality" is a colossal waste of time.

Maybe I'm an outlier compared to most of this forum, but I am never recording amplified music; I'm doing purely acoustic / classical so it's not a colossal waste of time to me.  For a typical concert I'm recording, which is choirs in churches, sometimes piano or organ, etc, preamp quality does make a difference.  If it didn't I never would have bought an FP-24, nor would I have had my 70D modified, both of which yielded positive benefits in my recordings.  Having heard quite a few classical recordings made with 7-series recorders but never being able to afford one, the prospect of the new MixPre recorders having as good or better preamps is very attractive to me, but I'd like to know how they are achieving that at this price point. 

The published specs certainly are impressive (particularly the EIN), and that probably does deserve more discussion.  Again, that's part of my curiosity how they are managing to do this for the price.

Your point about the lack of blind tests is definitely valid.  And you're right that it probably wouldn't make much difference for amplified music, but I could care less about that.  I'd like to hear such a shootout in a controlled environment with a purely acoustic concert.
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Offline hi and lo

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2017, 09:37:01 PM »
Duly noted. Unfortunately, you will probably never find the level of sophisticated discussion you're looking for on this forum. The published specifications for each device already tell virtually everything you need to know, yet the ability to reference them in meaningful discussion is like asking people to explain quantum mechanics. Seemingly, the only question ever asked is "how do they sound?" followed by a total absence of even casual comparison samples.

If we just look at a few simple specs (EIN, S/N Ratio, and THD), the answer is incredibly simple. Units like the 70d, M10, etc. perform around -120dBu EIN. This is already pretty good, however units include the SD 7xx series, 6xx series, Mixpre series, the Sony PCM-D100, or the Sonosax/Aeta recorders (just to name a few) are all going to be measurably better. Around -128dBu to -130dBu EIN, and quite frankly, it's never going to get any better than that. All of these units are world class recorders (even when marketed as mixers) and I would challenge anyone here prove even a small difference between something like the 7xx recorders and the "Kashmir" preamps. It's marketing hype, nothing more.

I probably sound grumpy and truth be told I am because how "how do they sound" is a stupid fucking question thrown around constantly on this forum. Feature such as form factor, battery life, redundancy, gain control, reliability, etc. are infinitely more important even when recording mosquito farts. Unless you're putting a transformer in the signal path, these units all "sound" the same (and sound really damn good). No one should be ditching a 7xx recorder for "Kashmir" preamps, especially when the feature set of the 7xx recorders is still significantly more robust.

Offline voltronic

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2017, 06:14:55 AM »
Duly noted. Unfortunately, you will probably never find the level of sophisticated discussion you're looking for on this forum. The published specifications for each device already tell virtually everything you need to know, yet the ability to reference them in meaningful discussion is like asking people to explain quantum mechanics. Seemingly, the only question ever asked is "how do they sound?" followed by a total absence of even casual comparison samples.

If we just look at a few simple specs (EIN, S/N Ratio, and THD), the answer is incredibly simple. Units like the 70d, M10, etc. perform around -120dBu EIN. This is already pretty good, however units include the SD 7xx series, 6xx series, Mixpre series, the Sony PCM-D100, or the Sonosax/Aeta recorders (just to name a few) are all going to be measurably better. Around -128dBu to -130dBu EIN, and quite frankly, it's never going to get any better than that. All of these units are world class recorders (even when marketed as mixers) and I would challenge anyone here prove even a small difference between something like the 7xx recorders and the "Kashmir" preamps. It's marketing hype, nothing more.

I probably sound grumpy and truth be told I am because how "how do they sound" is a stupid fucking question thrown around constantly on this forum. Feature such as form factor, battery life, redundancy, gain control, reliability, etc. are infinitely more important even when recording mosquito farts. Unless you're putting a transformer in the signal path, these units all "sound" the same (and sound really damn good). No one should be ditching a 7xx recorder for "Kashmir" preamps, especially when the feature set of the 7xx recorders is still significantly more robust.

All good points.  Personally I dislike preamps (or mics) that color the sound in any significant way.  What I'm looking for is transparent with low noise, and all of those you mention probably have that.

I disagree with your "sophisticated discussion" comment, though.  There's quite a bit of sophisticated discussion I've enjoyed on this forum, and some of it way above my head.

You have to acknowledge that it's often not simple or practical to set up the environment for a proper ABX like what you're looking for (how many here own passive splitters?), nor do I suspect many users on this board have an Audio Precision unit to thoroughly measure any of this equipment.  I think it makes more sense to take the "professional reviewers" to task, as they do have access to such equipment and circumstances.  Mic shootouts are so much easier as long as your recorder / preamp has the channels to cover all of them and you're very careful about placement.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2017, 07:07:12 AM »
I think we have to look at who these things are really designed for.  MP10T may be aimed at different users than the MP6, especially since the T generates timecode and has 8 xlr inputs.  The MP6 seems very much focused on individual DSLR video recordists using DSLRS that can generate their own timecode to the point that SD has posted specific camera directions.  http://cdn.sounddevices.com/download/guides/MixPreSeries-PanasonicGH45.pdf  The MP6 is still at a more affordable price point than the 10T. 

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Sound Devices MixPre-10T
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2017, 01:13:19 PM »

You have to acknowledge that it's often not simple or practical to set up the environment for a proper ABX like what you're looking for...

I didn't say proper, I said casual. As in, even a minimum level of effort put forth to help (or entertain) the community. There is no need for "professional reviewers" or access to expensive equipment. If one simply learns how to read and interpret the basic noise measurements, which are already done using Audio Precision equipment, it will be immediately obvious how a 70d vs. a MixPre Series vs. a 7xx Series might differ in sound. This published specifications already tell the complete story. Period.

We both know that no one here possesses the time, equipment, or knowledge to perform a "proper" comp, so why even bother to ask an anecdotal question about "sound" when it can't possibly be answered "properly?" I'd settle for the entertainment of a casual comp, but we don't even get that.

More importantly, anecdotes about the "sound" of a preamp and/or recorder aren't helpful, they're actually harmful. Asking how the Kashmir preamps compare to those in the 788T is nothing more than a tire kicking, window-shopping question; both units are already very near the theoretical limits for performance.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 01:15:17 PM by hi and lo »

 

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