Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: On stage / stage lip setup  (Read 535 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline heathen

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
On stage / stage lip setup
« on: November 02, 2017, 05:46:22 PM »
I've read a bunch of old threads on here about setting up on stage or at stage lip, and one thing I'm not clear about is what most people do about the monitors.  My assumption is you generally don't want to be recording from the monitors, so you're going to try to have your mics on the audience side of the monitors?  How close can you get to the monitors before they start messing things up?
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | Countryman B3s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
Decks: Zoom F4 | Roland R-05

Offline thatjackelliott

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: On stage / stage lip setup
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2017, 07:21:40 PM »
Excellent question, one I am wondering about, too. Monitors are angled up and toward the rear of the stage so that the folk playing that music can hear them, and highs should "beam" without wrapping around the enclosure toward the stage lip and the mics. But as we go down in frequency, the less-directional the sound is. At some point -- something complicated involving the size of the enclosure and the wavelength -- the sound will no longer be so directional and stage lip mics are going to get some blowback. Does this happen at frequencies below what is normally sent to the monitors? Then there are cabinet resonances, where the top of the cab might take off loudly. I'm guessing that in the final analysis, the answer to this is going to be "it depends." Depends on the wavelength, depends on the cabinet construction, depends on whether the sound tech is sending enough energy into the cabs at sufficiently low frequencies that the sound wraps around the cabs, or at frequencies in the range where the panels might take off.

I wait for words of wisdom from those that know stuff.

Offline heathen

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
Re: On stage / stage lip setup
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 11:25:17 AM »
Anyone have some insights to share about this topic?
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | Countryman B3s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
Decks: Zoom F4 | Roland R-05

Offline Moke

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3212
  • m0k3 - √!n¥¬ 633|<
Re: On stage / stage lip setup
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2017, 12:02:13 PM »
Phasing-induced shifting issues can run wild. Or, if carefully planned, can be taken advantage of.
One particular instance for me was a persian music ensemble, of a perisan fiddle, setar (long-neck lute), and two hand drummers, one on either side.
Now, to someone not at the concert, and not familiar with the music, what happened would not be noticeable. What did happen was that the drummer to the ensemble left (stage left). His entire kit stayed in the right channel, except for one particular drum, which was in the monitors louder than the others of his kit. The sound guy placed a monitor with my mics in front of the monitor, after I had already set up, and gone to dinner. When I returned, it was too late to do anything about it.  Its presence dragged that single drum from hard right, to being oriented to about 85%+ in the left channel, completely across stage from its actual presence.
No one else but myself, and the artists would know it, but, it drives me friggin nuts.

The drummer closest to the camera,... his drum came into the wrong channel, and sounds like it came from across this stage arrangement. You can sort of see my stereo pair in tight to the center players, about 3' out, centered between them..
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 12:05:21 PM by Moke »
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 11577
  • Gender: Male
Re: On stage / stage lip setup
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2017, 01:57:43 PM »
It depends a whole lot on the monitor mix, as well as the balance of sound on-stage at the microphone position excluding the monitor(s) in question.  Can't really ad anything more of substance to the conversation than that which hasn't already been covered.  ;)
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

Offline heathen

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
Re: On stage / stage lip setup
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2017, 12:37:17 PM »
Brief background: I recently recorded a three-piece instrumental band (Consider the Source...check them out if you've never heard them and like prog-type stuff) from stage lip.  As I faced the stage, the guitar was to my left, drums straight ahead, and bass to my right.  I was a couple feet right of DFC (again, from my perspective facing the stage).  Unsurprisingly, the bass is very prominent in the resulting recording (when listened from a plain XY pattern, for example).  This isn't necessarily a bad thing because John Ferrara is an incredible bass player.  The other guys are amazing too, though, so I'd like to have a more balanced mix.

So anyway, this leads to my setup question.  Because I recorded with a TetraMic I can tweak the patterns and orientations of the virtual microphones after-the-fact.  The idea I just had is to have the left-facing mic be a figure 8 pattern, so that the null of the figure 8 is in the direction of the bass, isolating the guitar more.  Some drums would also be captured by the positive lobe of the figure 8, which wouldn't be a bad thing.  For the right channel, I'd use something more like a card that would pick up mostly bass, though probably with some drums as well.

The question is, what are the implications of mixing polar patterns in a stereo pair like this?  Will there be weird phase and/or polarity anomalies?

What about potentially using three figure 8s, each with the positive lobe pointing at each instrument, and then adjusting the "mix" based on more/less gain for each of the three?
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | Countryman B3s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
Decks: Zoom F4 | Roland R-05

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 11577
  • Gender: Male
Re: On stage / stage lip setup
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2017, 01:46:04 PM »
Sure, you can dial in different polar patterns for your virtual left and right microphones.  All virtual microphones derived from a single ambisonic mic position will be coincident with each other and without phase problems.  Play with it while listening to see what works, even if what you end up with would seem conceptually odd.  This flexibility is one of the big advantages of ambisonics over straight Mid/Side, and the ability to choose different patterns as well as angle and level for each virtual microphone can be especially welcome for the live music recording we are doing were we don't have much control of things prior to recording.

Remember that stereo is all about an optimal amount of overlap between left and right channels, neither too much or too little.  Also remember that first-order microphone patterns are only really directive to a certain degree and aren't nearly as highly focused as many folks imagine they are.  You've a great tool for getting a real feel for how coincident mic patterns interact.

Yes, you can derive three figure 8 patterns (or whatever patterns), each focused on a different sound element, and then mix those down to 2-channels.  That might make for an easy way to handle things. 

Once mixed what you'll really have is exactly the same result as two figure 8 pointed somewhere in between the 3*.  You could achieve the same result by dialing in those two figure 8s directly, but the method of getting there may make one approach more attractive than the other.



*The sum of two figure 8s at the same level is a figure 8 angled halfway between the two.  Other patterns will sum to create patterns and angles between the two as well, it's just easier to conceptualize with figure 8's because their pattern does not change when two of them are summed, only the directional vector changes.  What would not be exactly the same is if you were to treat one or more of the three figure 8 channels differently prior to mixing them, say equalizing or compressing the drum or bass directed virtual microphone channel differently from the others.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.068 seconds with 29 queries.
© 2002-2017 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF
Website Design by Foxtrot Media, Inc., a Baltimore Website Company