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Author Topic: Soundboard feed: Edirol R-09HR or Tascam dr-2D? + mixing with audience sources?  (Read 1600 times)

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Offline fandelive

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Hello,

I have an opportunity to get access to a soundboard feed in a couple of days. I never taped from a soundboard source.

I have two recorders: Edirol R-09HR and Tascam dr-2D.

From what I gathered so far from this board, both will do the job. I could find some setup tips when using the Tascam (line-in and recording level set to 100), but nothing about the Edirol unless the fact that it might be able to handle a hotter input in comparison to the Tascam...

So this is a call to both Edirol and Tascam users who can give some experience feedback on taping from a soundboard feed.

It's gonna be a hard-rock band in a small club (300 to 500 capacity) and I've already taped a show there in the past using mics and the mix was done in stereo.

I don't think I can make it to the venue for soundcheck time so I might either be able to setup during the opening act or not to setup anything at all... Just plug-in and hit record.

What should I ask the sound guy that could help getting good results?

I know the sound table is gonna be an Audient Aztec 44/4 (PDF format user manual). It's the first time I open a sound table user manual as well. Here's what I could find under the "Recording" section (page 8) about plugging-in a recorder :

A fully balanced, level variable direct record out is available on jack and, in groups of 8 channels, on D-sub connectors wired in accordance with Tascam DA98 format. This allows simple connection to one or more 8 track recorders.

The provision of the fully balanced D-IN ‘remix’ input, again on D-Sub connectors in groups of 8, allows Aztec to be used for post-production of recorded performances preserving EQ and FX configurations used in the original show.

Audio Sub-Group outputs are available on a D-sub connector as well as XLRs, for rapid recorder connection if required.

Also, there seems to be Sub-Group and Auxiliary outputs (page 51) and Main outputs (page 52).

So my question here: where should I connect my recorder? I think there are several possibilities. This might help me getting the right cable (even if I might bring several cables with me).


Second half of this post is about mixing the SBD source with audience sources. I also might be able to get both an omnidirectional and a cardioid (pairs) sources taken from separated spots.

Again, from what I gathered by reading other threads, the soundboard mix might be heavy on vocals and guitars and not so much on bass and drums because we're in a hard-rock act/small club configuration.

So the idea would be to stand in front of a stack within the first three rows with the omnis (and my question here is : better stand on guitarist/singer side or bassist side ?) to get plenty of drums and bass with less room reverb, and to stand at the top of the theorical sweet spot triangle (stereo mix, remember) with the cardioids to get at least one balanced tape (and a bit more room ambiance).

What do you think ?
Any comment welcome :)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 07:53:56 AM by fandelive »
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline furburger

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it'd be good if you could get there for soundcheck, as you could plug in *headphones* while you check the different outs...but if you plan on being close to tape the show, you won't be able to monitor that at the beginning.

as for cables, I had a female XLR>1/8 custom made at a guitar shop, but since I also have a Zoom H4n, I also grabbed some male>female XLR's, as the male end will connect to the bottom of the Zoom, and if I connect a pair of mics to the Zoom by the board, I'll have a time-sync'd aud/SBD fileset. (gonna try this for the first time next week)

I really like the soundboards I've pulled from the DR-2D, there is one from The Magpie Salute on etree and dime and TTD right now (Tulsa) that has gotten a few hundred snatches combined.

good luck!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 06:31:14 PM by furburger »
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Offline kuba e

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I use cable with one end stereo jack 3.5 second end two RCA. Stereo jack 3.5 is for connecting to dr2d and RCA is for connecting to adapter for sbd out. You can buy different adapters to cover different options. I have these adapters:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01J2OSMWM/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bespeco-SLAD320-Female-Socket-Adapter/dp/B00M7XNIF2/ref=sr_1_8?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1509962382&sr=1-8&keywords=Bespeco++adapter
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bespeco-SLAD370-Stereo-Sockets-Adapter/dp/B00IF0JQM0/ref=sr_1_2?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1509962382&sr=1-2&keywords=Bespeco++adapter
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bespeco-SLAD380-Stereo-Sockets-Adapter/dp/B00IF0JN5A/ref=sr_1_6?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1509962382&sr=1-6&keywords=Bespeco++adapter

You can try audience recording by sbd. The advantage is that you can directly record all four tracks (microphones and sbd feed) to the dr2d. You can record onstage too. The sound engineer can bring the onstage microphones signal trough snake to sbd and you can record all four tracks to dr2d too. I would not record at stack for mixing with sbd. Stack recording and sbd feed will be similar and will not complement each other.

Offline fandelive

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Many thanks for replying so far !

You can try audience recording by sbd. The advantage is that you can directly record all four tracks (microphones and sbd feed) to the dr2d. You can record onstage too. The sound engineer can bring the onstage microphones signal trough snake to sbd and you can record all four tracks to dr2d too. I would not record at stack for mixing with sbd. Stack recording and sbd feed will be similar and will not complement each other.

Where should I stand with omnis if not in front of a stack ? Let's assume the SBD mix brings plenty of vocals and guitars and barely audible bass and drums. I think I should pick the missing instruments from front row (or close to front row).
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline Sloan Simpson

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My experience with soundboard feeds in small clubs is that typically drums are very audible, guitars much less so unless it's a quieter band or the guitarists turn down.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline IMPigpen

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In my experience with soundboard patching, be prepared for anything and never plug in yourself.  I always ask the FOH guy, even if I know them very well for a patch.  Depending on the console, the stage setup, etc, he may give you something different.  I got a patch on Saturday night that was an XLR aux out of the console.  But I've had RCA, a single mono XLR, even 1/4 from the headphones on some small boards.

Like kuba e said, just have a bunch of connectors in your arsenal.  I've got an 1/8" male to RCAs to plug into my DR-60 and always carry RCA to XLR, mono 1/4 inch, stereo 1/8" and stereo 1/4". 
Mics: Neumann KM184s; Naiant X-R omnis
Recorders: Tascam DR-60Dmkii

Offline Gutbucket

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Where should I stand with omnis if not in front of a stack ?

If you are recording a SBD feed directly you do not want to stack tape for your mic recording.  The intent of stack taping is to maximize pickup of direct PA content while minimizing pickup of everything else.  You are already getting direct SBD, so you want exactly the opposite in your microphone recording- maximum pickup of everything else and minimum pickup of the direct PA content.   If you are wearing the mics, stay in the center and choose your position to favor the non-direct PA sound stuff. Up front at stage-lip or back by the board can both work.
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Offline lsd2525

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Where should I stand with omnis if not in front of a stack ?

If you are recording a SBD feed directly you do not want to stack tape for your mic recording.  The intent of stack taping is to maximize pickup of direct PA content while minimizing pickup of everything else.  You are already getting direct SBD, so you want exactly the opposite in your microphone recording- maximum pickup of everything else and minimum pickup of the direct PA content.   If you are wearing the mics, stay in the center and choose your position to favor the non-direct PA sound stuff. Up front at stage-lip or back by the board can both work.

If the band is down with it, put them on stage.
Mics: ADK A51s; AT4041; Superlux S502; CK91 active w/homebrew BB; AT853; Naiant X-X; Nak 300's
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Offline kuba e

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Onstage recordings have a very interesting sound. But it may be difficult to find a place where you will have everything balanced. It is good to be further away from the drums, it can be very prominent in the recordings. You will also miss vocals. You can get vocals by mixing with sbd, but synchronizing Edirol and Dr2d is difficult.

The second option is to make an audience recording by board. Compared to onstage it has the advantage that there is no risk of instrument imbalances and you can make full use of dr2d - record sbd and audience simultaneously. That's a huge advantage, you do not need to sync tracks in post. You have to just align it by time.

Try both options to compare when you have time. Setup Dr2d with aud + sbd by the board. And then put easy setup Edirol + some mics on stage just for fun.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 01:52:49 PM by kuba e »

Offline furburger

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My experience with soundboard feeds in small clubs is that typically drums are very audible, guitars much less so unless it's a quieter band or the guitarists turn down.

pretty sure those levels are set by the soundman, and not set by the acoustics of the room.

or, my experience varies depending on the soundman vs. the "square footage" of the venue.
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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My experience with soundboard feeds in small clubs is that typically drums are very audible, guitars much less so unless it's a quieter band or the guitarists turn down.

pretty sure those levels are set by the soundman, and not set by the acoustics of the room.

or, my experience varies depending on the soundman vs. the "square footage" of the venue.

The soundman is setting the levels to the PA for the room, not the Tape Out. So if there is plenty of guitar volume coming off the stage, he will send less to the PA, because it is already loud in the room, and there will be less in the Tape Out signal. And if you're dealing with rock guitarists, more than likely in a 300-400 club, there is a lot of volume coming off the stage from their amps. Generalities of course, but my point was guitar is likely to be lacking in the soundboard feed, not overly abundant.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline furburger

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My experience with soundboard feeds in small clubs is that typically drums are very audible, guitars much less so unless it's a quieter band or the guitarists turn down.

pretty sure those levels are set by the soundman, and not set by the acoustics of the room.

or, my experience varies depending on the soundman vs. the "square footage" of the venue.

The soundman is setting the levels to the PA for the room, not the Tape Out. So if there is plenty of guitar volume coming off the stage, he will send less to the PA, because it is already loud in the room, and there will be less in the Tape Out signal. And if you're dealing with rock guitarists, more than likely in a 300-400 club, there is a lot of volume coming off the stage from their amps. Generalities of course, but my point was guitar is likely to be lacking in the soundboard feed, not overly abundant.

and usually the ambient sound is:

-drums: loudest
-then bass
-then guitars
-then vocals

since you 'feel' bass and drums and 'hear' vox and guitar, that's the general rule....and the soundman adjusts accordingly.

it makes no sense that the soundman would amplify the loudest instrument in the room.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 07:45:55 PM by furburger »
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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No. Vocals will be very loud in the soundboard feed, since they are not coming through an amplifier onstage into the room. If the vocals were the quietest thing going to the PA, you wouldn't hear them.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline furburger

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No. Vocals will be very loud in the soundboard feed, since they are not coming through an amplifier onstage into the room. If the vocals were the quietest thing going to the PA, you wouldn't hear them.

that's what my chart above says.

vocals, LOWEST on the list, will be *strongest* in the SBD feed in a club

drums, HIGHEST on the list, will be weakest (unless the soundman is inept)

which is contrary to what your post said, that being that drums will be loudest...., or very audible, with empahsis on 'very'

My experience with soundboard feeds in small clubs is that typically drums are very audible


you didn't mention vocals at all, either.

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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Your post is clearer after the edit.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

 

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